26 replies to this topic

[gamavor]

Don't you have the feeling that Armenian pop sceene has been taken over by Armenian gypsies. Andy, Paul Baoughbadudalulian, Armenchik(?),etc. etc. I was watching (I would never do this again) Horizon on line and they play Arabic. And those are suppose to be tashnags? I know that most tashnags are gypsies, but at least they can change the name of the channel to something more suitable, like Habibi channel.

[Maral]

was the Arabic song on during a World Music show?

[gamavor]

Yes, but apart of this most of the music they play is rabiz. Yesterday I spotted Gor Mkhitarian in an interview and was a little relieved. In general those are rare occurrences. These people should realize that there is a difference between home running broadcast and public broadcast, where the educational merit and taste should be of prime concern, because it pertains to our future and especially the young, who need role models and who absorb everything as a sponge.

[Maral]

I dont' have an issue with them playing non-Armenian songs during a show called World Music
There is a music show,I dont' want to mention the name of the show,well I just can't stand it,sounds quite hasarag to me,and I'm assuming that's what Rabiz is(I still dont' know what Rabiz means) but I realize that just cause I don't like it doesn't mean that others don't or can't like it...to each his own.I mean some of these singer which we may call Rabiz fill up a concert hall in no time flat,so who am I to say that they are not good?That being said

I have a new show on Horizon I am obsessed with...it's the one where they teach you Tai Chi
who is the guy with the red belt on?

[hayemyes]

Yes, but apart of this most of the music they play is rabiz. Yesterday I spotted Gor Mkhitarian in an interview and was a little relieved. In general those are rare occurrences. These people should realize that there is a difference between home running broadcast and public broadcast, where the educational merit and taste should be of prime concern, because it pertains to our future and especially the young, who need role models and who absorb everything as a sponge.

actually i think ur wrong on this onw,
in no ways am i protecting horizon, i dnt particularly enjoy their programming, but on the contrary, i find that they rarely play rabiz music on horizon tv except for the music shows,
most of the time they play the same shushan petrosian or anna khachatryan clip over and over again, cuz since they avoid playin anythin that sounds slightly oriental, they dnt have alot of choices to choose from, heck they even censored aram asatryan many times...
as for calling the channel and tashnags name, i find that lacks maturity, and u cannot generalize about a political party from the music that they play on their channel,
no one understands that music is way over the political thing, so what if they play arabic (im not sayin tehy do, but so waht if they do?), im sure u wouldnt say the same if they played russian, cuz thats ok...u gotta realize alot of armenians grew up in arab countries and turkey, they are influenced by that, they enjoy that, u cant force ur taste on them sayin that u have a better taste than they do, thats against any kind of free speech principle (and we know the US is strong on that (!) )

[gamavor]

Sweety, I grew up with Beatles and Rolling Stones and hard rock, but i'm not forcing them on tsigan tashnags. Right? If they like it that much they can listen arabic, hindu, chuvash whatever they like AT HOME! They can go to whatever restaurants they want (I know their first preference is turkish) but I don't feel good seeng adds on their frist preferences time and again on Armenian Public (internet) TV. Those that are in this business should act more responsibly, given the wide audience they hope to attract.

[Anoushik]

I completely agree with you on this Gamavor. Unfortunately, things are not improving much. In the contrary, it's getting worse. Two days ago on H1 they had a competition of "rabiz restaurant singers" - that's exactly how they announced it in Armenian, no kidding - and to be honest, nothing surprises me any longer. A couple of years ago I'd write passionately on this subject, but now it's all getting old. No one seems to care and Armenians are more happily and proudly embracing the rabiz culture. Maybe we really do need time. Maybe this is a transition period our culture is experiencing. But as the overall living conditions in Armenia are constantly improving, I only see our culture diminishing. I can only hope for my own sake and my future Armenian children's sake that our collective cultural tastes will improve.

Hayemyes, if they played Russian rabiz music (and there is a big Armenian audience for Russian rabiz as well) I'm sure Gamavor would object as well. I know I would. This has nothing to do with our differences of where we grew up or what we were accustomed to. Rabiz is rabiz, period. You want me to give an example of American rabiz? Britney Spears.

Maral, don't take the audience size as an indication of whether a performer is good or not. The big audience is always comprised of the masses. They don't know any better.

[Maral]

Anoushik,I look at it like this...as tacky as I think some of those singers are...if they can fill up the Kodak theatre,they are a successful at what they do.
Anyways like you said this subject is getting old...and pointless to argue....to each his own...as unjashag as they might be

[hayemyes]

Anoushik, gamavor's point about the arabic and turkish music music isnt about arabic or turkish rabiz music, its about arabic or turkish music period...ok lets say we put aside turkish, what about the arabic? what is rabiz arabic music? it doesnt even exist, and i understand u said we can play non-rabiz russian music, so that means we can play non-rabiz arabic music too? what is that exactly? arabic music is arabic music, but i am sure that if horizon or any other arm channel played any arabic music, gamavor and many others would still criticize cuz we cannot get past the instant link that comes to our heads when we hear that music: arabic = muslim = turkish = enemy = bad = we shouldnt listen to it (and i add = censorship and double standards)
i think its too shallow to convince ourselves that we have nationalistic emotions by ignoring and not listening to turkish music or arabic music...anyone who turly believes in music as an art is way beyond that...

[gamavor]

anyone who turly believes in music as an art is way beyond that...

I agree with that part! Arabic and turkish music is a torture for the ear of a homo sapiens.

[Sdel]

I agree with that part! Arabic and turkish music is a torture for the ear of a homo sapiens.

you people are not thinking straight , who saved the Armenians when they fled Turkey/ who opened their doors to the dying and the starving Armenians running away from the god damn Turkish Yataghan!! who helped us recover our identity and let us live like our own country inside their own Arab countries?? who else saved our butts other than the Arabs??? are we going to deny their humanity and hate their music?? you must be a real ignorrant person mr Gamavor!!! and stay away from Armenian politics, this is why we don't get anywhere!!! because of people like you!! if you want to do something good to Armenian music start bitching about those so called Armenian bands like Oud and Doumbeck players I don't want to name them , they play nothing but Turkish music! even if they play Armenian songs with a riddiculas accent it sounds like Turkish because they play it in Turkish style, and you unfortunately think that's Armenian music ! I know what I'm talking about and you can't tell me that I'm wrong my friend!

[gamavor]

Not quite logical on your part. If you have ANY knowledge of Armenian history, you should know that Arabs devasted Armenia just like the turks did.

All of these has nothing to do with what Armenian channels should play. I understand there are some Armenians who enjoy this music. Fine. It is a free world. Go to arab places and enjoy their music and traditions as much as you want. I myself go to a Middle Eastern restaurant at least once every two weeks. None of this has anything to do with politics and aesthetics. You are free to educate your kids and brought them like arabs if you want, but don't try to do the same to the rest of us. Unlike us, you have the whole Middle EAst to enjoy. Go to Syrian, Lebenese, Jordan places and listen to their music as much as you want.

[Sdel]

Not quite logical on your part. If you have ANY knowledge of Armenian history, you should know that Arabs devasted Armenia just like the turks did.

All of these has nothing to do with what Armenian channels should play. I understand there are some Armenians who enjoy this music. Fine. It is a free world. Go to arab places and enjoy their music and traditions as much as you want. I myself go to a Middle Eastern restaurant at least once every two weeks. None of this has anything to do with politics and aesthetics. You are free to educate your kids and brought them like arabs if you want, but don't try to do the same to the rest of us. Unlike us, you have the whole Middle EAst to enjoy. Go to Syrian, Lebenese, Jordan places and listen to their music as much as you want.

on the contrary the Turks devestated the Arabs just like they did to us, I don't know where you're getting that from, to this day the Turks don't like the Arabs despite most of Arabs are muslims but the turks still don't like them, instead they like Israel,, I don't know where you were born but if you were born in the middle east you wouldn't talk like this, did you know that Arabs play armenian music/ just to give you an example, because we lived together Arabs and Armenians in their countries it's very logical that we will give and take each others cultures , Armenians that live in Cilicia talked Turkish just like their own language, my grandma didn't speak one word in Armenian, so you think she loved the turks?
look I don't live in L.A. and I've never watched that horizon t.v. but it's very natural for them to enjoy arabic music because it was a part of their lives back in the middle east, how about the people from the Armenian mother land ? dont they enjoy Russian music?? but of course it's natural. and they play Russian music on their t.v.'s
you didn't tell me anything about those Oud playing turkish Armenian bands...............................................
and one more thing, our own King Dikran the great came all the way to Lebanon and the neighboring countries and ruled it for a while , I know that's history too.
if you 're worried that we will turn to Arabs or Russians because what they play on their t.v. once in a while don't worry, my grandma lived and died like an honorable Armenian..............................................................

[gamavor]

As I suspected you don't have any knowledge of Armenian history. In fact most likely you are an Arab. Welcome to our Forum.

Relax and enjoy the type of music you want, just don't force me to listen your garbage music on a public Armenian outlet. Is that too difficult to understand?

Are you saying that because we live in America we should start listening to country and western music???

As to the Arab devastation of Armenia read about it in the History section of the Forum. I'm going to post it soon.

[Sdel]

As I suspected you don't have any knowledge of Armenian history. In fact most likely you are an Arab. Welcome to our Forum.

Relax and enjoy the type of music you want, just don't force me to listen your garbage music on a public Armenian outlet. Is that too difficult to understand?

Are you saying that because we live in America we should start listening to country and western music???

As to the Arab devastation of Armenia read about it in the History section of the Forum. I'm going to post it soon.

so that's what you think I'm an Arab.... when you can't answer my questions I become an Arab, shame on you .
if you think you know history, why don't we hate the Arabs the persians the Assyrians and so on , but none of them did what the Turks did to us, when you run out of answers you dig your history books to find something just to show us how smart you are???
thank you my friend for calling me an Arab it's o.k. but I'm not an stupid ... .... like you are.

[gamavor]

What is wrong with being Arab?

[Yervant1]

Please gentlemen the code of conduct (COC) of hyeforum dictates that members should refrain from using personal insults and name callings. Keep it healthy, civilised and clean.
Thanks

[aghzar]

1. Armenian pop music has not been "recently taken over" by the likes of Paul, Andy, etc, rather its been ruled by those types of singers from the beginning. Actually i should reveal my bias and say i really dislike Armenian pop music no matter how "armenian" it is, with the possible exception of Harout P. on a good day. The rest of them are just crappy middle eastern pop music (Paul etc.) although sometimes, but this is more from the 70s and 80s, they used to copy continental european pop music, or what in America we would call "lounge music" (Adiss Harmandian). To sum up: If you were expecting only Armenian purity from Armenian pop singers, you are expecting too much. If you were expecting quality music at all from the Armenian pop singers, your out of your mind....

2. Gor Mkhitarian is no more "Armenian" music than those other guys are. He just happens to have better taste and copies American folk-rock instead of crap middle eastern pop music. So i dont understand how that is better from the nationalist perspective you seem to be taking. If Armenian tv should only show Armenian music, how "armenian" does it have to be? In reality i dont care that much bc im not in LA and there is no such thing as Armenian TV where i live.

2. Sdel, why should Armenians like Arabic music more than Turkish just because we supposedly love Arabs because they "saved us from the genocide". It just so happens that the death marches sent us into Arab lands, so when the locals came to rescue the Armenians, those locals happened to be Arabs. That has nothing to do with listening to Arabic music over Turkish. Actually, Turkish music is closer to Armenian than Arabic is. You know why? Because number one, Armenians lived under Turkish rule for centuries and many as you mentioned only spoke Turkish, thus they began singing certain Armenian folk songs in Turkish because they forgot their Armenian language. 2. Turks took a lot of music and other cultural aspects from the local peoples of Anatolia, such as Armenians and nowadays claim it as their own music. 3. Armenians as well as Greeks were instrumental in developing Turkish classical music.

None of this is to say that Turkish music is all Armenian, but its much more similar to Armenian than Arabic music is. Arabic music has none of the connections with Armenian music that Turkish music has. Even by listening to it, one can immediately tell the difference which sets Arabic music apart. Mainly it is the use of much more divergent "quartertones".

3. I think most of the people on this forum are from L.A. and have no idea what Sdel is talking about in regard to the "turkish armenian" oud and dumbeg bands. I dont think Gamavor was defending those guys, or referring to them at all. However I myself as a good east coast Armenian will defend those bands by saying this, that although their music is heavily influenced by Turkish gypsy music those bands were the perpetuation Armenian folk music and dance in the Armenian American community for the whole 20th century. In fact still to this day. The only other source of Armenian folk music was to have it directly come from Hayastan, but although that was maybe more purified, it had little to do with what the Armenian Americans had known in the old country. The classical folk music from Armenian State Song and Dance Ensemble and the like was collected mostly in Eastern Armenia, and any western Armenian songs were mainly from Daron or Vaspouragan while Armenian Americans of that generation came more from Kharpert province and other areas of western Armenia, almost none from eastern Armenia. These Armenians who came from Turkey (my great grandparents) brought the music they had known in the old country with them, much of it being authentic Armenian folk songs and dances (for example Tamzara), but just like the Beirutsi Armenians who spend their time nowadays listening to Amr Diab, they had their pop songs of the day (well, the turn of the century equivalent of pop songs) which they liked to hear and since they were from Turkey those songs were Turkish. Since there was no CDs back then, and you can't really dance to a dj playing phonographs, they are too soft, of course those bands had to actually play (on REAL instruments by the way, not this electronic synthesizer crap), they had to play the turkish songs themselves if they wanted to hear them and because of that the turkish music was also perpetuated alongside the Armenian. Although actually, nowadays those groups will rarely play Turkish songs, although i guess it depends on which area you live in. Anyways, they maybe have played both Turkish and Armenian but at least they preserved within that what they knew of Armenian folk music while the Armenian music of Beirut is Paul Baghdadlian and his kind and is nothing but a knock off of Arabic or sometimes Hayastantsi pop music.

[gamavor]

I agree with most of you say and yes I don't condone the so-called "turkish" (there is nothing Turkish in this world - the music you are referring to is Ottoman with heavy Greek, Persian, Caucasian and Arabic influences). The question here is not what the Armenian pop should sound like (it is a music for the masses and it should stay that way), nor whether or not one should listen to some specific type of music based on history, disregarding his taste. I personally don't have anything against quality Rabiz music if it is played at the right venue. I agree, it brings people on the dance floor and goes well with wine....BUT, my point is that constantly advertising and playing this music on Armenian public media sources doesn't serve the purpose of the media, which in first place should be to educate, inform and ultimately assure proper understanding of art amongst our youth.

The dangers I see with Rabiz and in many instances with Oriental/Arabic and Turkish music is not that much the music itself, but in the Armenian context it evolved into a modus vivendy. It becomes a lifestyle, which accentuates qualities of the human being contrary to the natural human development.


Mi xoskov, eshutiun en tastariagum mer jahelnerin.

[hayemyes]

aghzar, u said: "Gor Mkhitarian is no more "Armenian" music than those other guys are. He just happens to have better taste and copies American folk-rock instead of crap middle eastern pop music. "

this right there is a double standard ur setting.
why is it ok to copy american folk rock and its not for middle eastern pop? is that cuz u dnt enjoy middle eastern music? so no one should copy it ? is it because in ur head middle eastern music is low class, eventhough it is done way more professionally than alot of american pop? we cannot judge other cultures...and we cannot set double standards, if u want arm channels to stop playin middle eastern influenced music, then i say they should stop playin ALL TYPES of russian music, as well as ALL types of arabic music, italian music, french music, heck they should even stop playin gor mkhitaryan and ruben haxverdyan, whose music have ntohing to do with armenian music...we're left with not much eh...
why dont americans have bullshit convos like this? ah shakira has arabic influences in her muisic, thats bad, were fighting the arabs theyre our enemies (in case u didnt notice im bein sarcastic, i dnt really believe in that) so we should ban shakira? this is the type of mentality were pursuing? and havent u noticed, this is the mentality that is responsible for armenian music lacking ANY type of danced music today: every new album that comes out of armenia is filled with boring ballads and slow love songs that all sound like each other; thats because our ppl has found a way to criticize the least oriental influence in the music, after all most of the danceable melodies that u can play at parties and clubs have a bit of that feel, its part of a transition period we have to go thru, we should use that touch (cuz it makes alot of ppl dance) to gradually introduce our own touch, or CREATE our own touch if we havent, and then we can take the oriental influence out once we have settled and achieved a desirable type of armenian music...american music has flourished so much because they lack the old-school mentality we pursue in our community