31 replies to this topic

[nairakev]

THOTH, baby!
Israel is considered by Europeans as a non-european democracy. It is not my caprice. But most of Europeans think that Israel while being a democratic society - has a "deep" inclination to religious movements. Though being a secular society the religious presence in israeli democracy is a undevisible "reality". So I cannot consider a society to be democratic while religious influence domintaes social values.
Which is not the case in Europe (exept may be Portugal, Ireland and Italy).
But again there is nothing to compare even with those strongly influenced by religion european democracies.

I thought you brought the example on Israel to demonstrate the controversies of European political picture as far as we were discussing about the US and the Europe.

But now, It's much clear, after you explained your example.

Israel is not in an easy situation. I don't think it's an apartheid society, but may be too "religious". Meanwhile the biggest dilema of Israeli society is that it does elect governers who do not ease their situation. Pardoxicaly, Israelis want the protection and peace, and they vote for a government which seeks militarism and colonization of palestinian territories. There is no realistic compromise, but a huge tension and deadly confrontation in this region. After all I'm sure that compromise will be found shortly.

I don't think there is a Palestinian threat. Palestinians were living there during centuries and they were forced to leave their home when the state of Israel was established in 1949. The only reapproach that one can make to the arab world is their hostility against the existence of the Jewish state and the resistence to recognise it in the beginning. But today after many years of war, I think Israel really doesn't meet serious resistance from the Arab world. The Israeli state is mostly recognised. Now the next step is to define borders and return palestinian refugees and of course to stop colonization of occupied territories.

I'm just so simply and easily distributing solutions, you see

Majority of Israeli Jewish will affirm that the war against arab world is a "true" one. They will affirm that they only want to return what they consider to be their historic motherland. It is understandable, but not realistic...Sorry!

Do you imagine if now diasporan armenians will aim to get back their historic lands in the Eastern Turkey, which they were forced to abandon 86 years ago? What a disastrous idea!

I do not sympathise any participant in Israeli and Arab war. I think there is so much hatrid between them, that I refuse to side any type "good" and "true" hate. Hate is hate!
I'm not supportive of any hatrid!

Why Israel is not a democratic country?

While being participant in a bloody war against arabs it does choose partners which have a pretty fat "criminal" past.

I can't accept Israel having good "sweet" relations with Turkey, because it is the only option for this state.

It is too ugly to justify that Israel needs vitaly some partners in the region. Israeli government knows very well what does represent in reality the Modern Turkish Government and political institutions (it's post-Ottoman junta dressed like Brittish Queen. Sort of camuflated in european look miltary democraZy).

Israel Knows what happened in the past of the Ottoman Turkey and it does everything to side Turkey in its denialist policy towards Armenian Genocide. I call it regional "conformism".

Some will say it's politics.
In that case I'd say it's dirty politics BTW!!! You cannot side openly Turkish state's denialist position and ask reparations from ex-nazi Germany.

It's nothing else but hypocrisy in its ugliest appereance!

Israel is far from being a democracy. It's a quazi-millitalitarist and quazi-mono-religious society tied by the existential war with its neighbours. Though being well-organised and economicaly developed, Israel stays suburbian "democracy" where the rights are distributed selectively.

[THOTH]

I think I can agree with most everything you have said here.


If the citizens are all composed of a specific religious group I don’t see a problem in a religious based Democracy (and considering it as a Democracy). The issue, in Israel (or similar) case is IMO – are minority (religious/ethnic) groups allowed full rights – both in terms of government access (as citizens and to be elected/with political parties) and are they free from undue discrimination and ability to practice religion and to own property and such. I think that perhaps Israel has a mixed record in this – though not al bad. Most of the problems come, I think, from extremist groups who are able to influence the Government.

I see it as apartheid to an extent – because like you have implied – those who are not Jewish are second class citizens – it is considered to be a Jewish State. I am not so confident that there will be compromise. In fact Arafat had a very good offer from Barak that could have been the basis for such – he wanted more – he gambled and he lost big time. His refusal to deal on Jerusalem opened the door for Sharon – the worst scenario for the Palestinians – IMO. I used to be an apologist for Arafat…I don’t think I am any longer.

There are Jews in Israel who want peace – and they are active – they fight an uphill battle. Much of the extremism of the various Israeli Governments, however is due to the undue influence of minority right wing religious factions needed to form coalition governments. These groups see their narrow goals/aims first and peace second. Many of these Jews are very racist against Arabs as well. They are a minority – but the wield power beyond their numbers – and they receive supported from – IMO – misguided American Jews who are one dimensional in their view of the conflict and of Arabs etc.

I disagree – there is a Palestinian threat (regardless of the dynamics of how it came into being). Young Palestinians are radicalized and many have become single minded racist religious zealots willing to sacrifice themselves against Israel. I would call this a threat. Sure – the Arab world itself is largely cowed (payoffs from the US can blunt any [for the most part originally only] half-hearted rhetoric…etc).

Yea, me too, see we are Armenians….don’t let anyone say otherwise…LOL!

I think peace will only come with a reconstitution of the State of Israel which fully includes Palestinians as partners. The (legitimate) fear of Israel is the demographics…but unless they do so – IMO – they will always have bitter Palestinians at their doorstep ready to oppose them…

I have always spoke out as such – that to contemplate such is folly and misguided – and even if it were militarily possible (which it is not – nor will it likely ever be) – I would still oppose such – as it is just wrong! We have no right to do to innocent people what was once done to our own. (in a nutshell). We must rely on the eventual maturation of the Turkish State and people to eventually come to some accommodation (access/inclusion etc). (and one day when the concept of a nation-State is perhaps not so rigid who knows… In the mean time any talk or reconquest or hope that the UN or some such will grant lands is just a pipe dream. And will you and the other well off Armenians of the West really move to Eastern Anatolia to repopulate? I don’t think so – not in any great numbers anyway. I mean folks are streaming out of Armenia now…come now I say. And for these thoughts I have been branded by some Armenians as a nay sayer/traitor or worse…etc (some commonly call me a Jew lover as well…LOL (doesn’t bother me – I love all peoples)

I feel the opposite – I sympathize with both sets of peoples – very much so – for a variety of reasons….Its their leaders whom I have problem with….

Yes – I too have my problems with this relationship – very much so. But I understand it fully…on the Government level. I take issue with the individual Jews who support such however – they should have more sympathy…and it is hypocritical. Not all Jews are comfortable with this arrangement either. And most all Jews I have met (a great many) acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.
I understand your specific position of Israel (holding it to a higher standard) – and I share this. However, the US and other western nations also are tight with Turkey. Should not they also be condemned?


Yes, perhaps…(I have run out of time)…later

[nairakev]

I think I can agree with most everything you have said here.
THOTH,
Well, you see baby, I knew that some "spanking", will bring significantly positive results to our "virtual" communication.

Though, honestly, I prefer our physical communication, it's more efficient... And funnier somehow. I've seen some art-work there I can be so nasty sometimes. And you my fidel "muse"! Don't call me crazy, THOTH!
I never refused to spank you...

If the citizens are all composed of a specific religious group I don’t see a problem in a religious based Democracy (and considering it as a Democracy). The issue, in Israel (or similar) case is IMO – are minority (religious/ethnic) groups allowed full rights – both in terms of government access (as citizens and to be elected/with political parties) and are they free from undue discrimination and ability to practice religion and to own property and such. I think that perhaps Israel has a mixed record in this – though not al bad. Most of the problems come, I think, from extremist groups who are able to influence the Government

Religious Democracy? That's a funny concept!
In that case how many religions should that democracy change each 30-50 years? Since democracy is something that mutates the way human being does. And do you know many religions that did mutate in the same chronological order that we did? Look when were written all those "holly" books? You do not remember the exact day of their "release"? Me either (LOL...) I know that the youngest "antiquity" turns not far from Kasbah. It's the youngest we have, honeybunny? The life is delightful! ... not tragic, indeed...


I see it as apartheid to an extent – because like you have implied – those who are not Jewish are second class citizens – it is considered to be a Jewish State. I am not so confident that there will be compromise. In fact Arafat had a very good offer from Barak that could have been the basis for such – he wanted more – he gambled and he lost big time. His refusal to deal on Jerusalem opened the door for Sharon – the worst scenario for the Palestinians – IMO. I used to be an apologist for Arafat…I don’t think I am any longer

THOTH, honey!
I have never said such a thing "those who are not Jewish are second class citizens - it is considered to be a Jewish State".

Speaking about Israel like the Jewish state, I would never say that those are not Jewish are concidered to be like "second class". The actual Israel was created in order to preserve Jewish religion (Judaism), Jewish heritage. Je wish people didn't have their own state since milleniums. It is a lot? It is a difficult ambition to carry. The Jewish culture always was inspired by the myth of "Promissed Land", the same way as many christians cultures did. But the difference of the concept splits over here:
- in Jewish culture the "Promissed Land" was Israel
- In Christian cultures it was mostly understood like "Heaven".
I know that my interpretation are always shocking in terms of comparisons, but I like to analyse all our actuality. I'm a product of my epoque, where we are used to analyse... Kind of "Generation of analysts". I'm quite pessemist about this "hypothesis", but I do not exclude it either. The human race is going to unification. This will happen soon or late...

Logicaly "unification" is something "pure", kind of a "symbioz of all great ambitions". And I'm confident that by coming to the end of the story, Judaism is living its biggest period's of mutation.
The Jewish Cultural heritage as many other heritages are in eternal competition. This competition is close to the meaning that we most know - the "survival". I do not imagine the future as a result of "Destructive War of Religions", where the strongest survives.
I see it in a bit more optimistic way. I imagine rather a "creative symbioz" of all fighting religions, where each religion donates the best part of it, where our concept of logical stops working the classical way.

What makes feel that I should think that way. I don't know? May be the fact of the appereance of Israeli state is giving me some reason. I think the day when peace will be instored in Israel, the whole world society will have a huge "War of Religions". And that is not something "unpreviewed". By whom? Read the "holly" books. And try to be convienced by all religions at the same time? You won't advance further the second book. Because the first one will give you some strong advice to commit a suicide after the second holly book... This is called "humour noir", THOTH!

Apologist for Arafat?
What for? I think Arafat is a "bouc-emissaire" of the Palestinian "elite". He doesn't have that "absolute" power to make historical decesions.

I disagree – there is a Palestinian threat (regardless of the dynamics of how it came into being). Young Palestinians are radicalized and many have become single minded racist religious zealots willing to sacrifice themselves against Israel. I would call this a threat. Sure – the Arab world itself is largely cowed (payoffs from the US can blunt any [for the most part originally only] half-hearted rhetoric…etc).

European version:
Palestinians are desperate! If they are applying to such "painful" acts as "martyr-kamikazing" - that means simply that this people are desperate! When you are desperate you have nothing to loose but your life.

I think peace will only come with a reconstitution of the State of Israel which fully includes Palestinians as partners. The (legitimate) fear of Israel is the demographics…but unless they do so – IMO – they will always have bitter Palestinians at their doorstep ready to oppose them…

I don't think that demography is a serious argument for Israelis to fear arab threat. The arab threat is nothing else but "hostile" niet!nicht!nein!non! to Jewish state. Point "basta"!
It was yesterday. Today arabs do not mind the existence of Jewish state. Today they claim the rights to share. Sharing is the whole separate issues, that I won't discuss. But I'm agreeing with you that peace will be instored only "with a reconstitution of the State of Israel which fully includes Palestinians as partners". I agree, for once, at least!

I have always spoke out as such – that to contemplate such is folly and misguided – and even if it were militarily possible (which it is not – nor will it likely ever be) – I would still oppose such – as it is just wrong! We have no right to do to innocent people what was once done to our own. (in a nutshell). We must rely on the eventual maturation of the Turkish State and people to eventually come to some accommodation (access/inclusion etc). (and one day when the concept of a nation-State is perhaps not so rigid who knows… In the mean time any talk or reconquest or hope that the UN or some such will grant lands is just a pipe dream. And will you and the other well off Armenians of the West really move to Eastern Anatolia to repopulate? I don’t think so – not in any great numbers anyway. I mean folks are streaming out of Armenia now…come now I say. And for these thoughts I have been branded by some Armenians as a nay sayer/traitor or worse…etc (some commonly call me a Jew lover as well…LOL (doesn’t bother me – I love all peoples)

Oops, I agree for the second time! I knew I'm gonna make it! LOL...


<i>I have been branded by some Armenians as a nay sayer/traitor or worse…etc (some commonly call me a Jew lover as well…LOL </i>
This people are the "enemies" of Armenians. I put enemies in quotes just to mention that we do not want more enemies. We got them enough. Let's make friends! They can be everywhere...just look around! LOL...

This is the best part of what you said. I lked it the most "We must rely on the eventual maturation of the Turkish Sate"...I would add also "we must equally rely on the eventual maturation of the Armenian Sate". This is again a "holly" way for knocking the balls. I really think its funny to dedicate one's life for the "eventualism" of maturation of Turks or Armenians. Let's contribute to the "maturation" itself by maturizing ourselves and the human societies in general. If we are for the "good" we should share with all...no matter where he comes from!

I feel the opposite – I sympathize with both sets of peoples – very much so – for a variety of reasons….Its their leaders whom I have problem with…
My purposes were addressed only to their leaders, honey! I do not work with "average citizen statistics, neither sympathise public opinion polls". I just watch each society through their leaders this is how each society reflects its everyday...

---PAUSE---
Everyday, Holliday! Holliday! Yeah, soon we got hollidays! It's still damn rainy in Paris. You told me you are a mixer. DJ mixer.
Did you mix "Holliday" by Madonna?
Once I've downloaded "Mojo" mixed with Michael Jackson. Such a bad taste!
But it was a very creative "mauvais goût". You know DJ stuff. I love some songs only in their mixed versions. I think you should be someone who does mix. And that should be a huge pleasure! LOL...
---END PAUSE----

Yes – I too have my problems with this relationship – very much so. But I understand it fully…on the Government level.
Sorry, I can't and I don't want to understand it on the Governmental level especially. If there is a Parliament, Senate or Knesset in the world, where Armenians should lobby - it is Israeli Knesset. Because what Israeli Knesset does in regard of the Armenian "cause" is purely hypocritical attitude, which betrays the image of the Jewish state and the world Jewry. You cannot expect more from "armenian" nationalist fanatics after all such a stupid conduct of Israeli government, when they say "jewish lobby" is backing the whole Turkish denialist scenario.
I know that the "delirious" stories about "jewish or any other conspiracy" we heard them already.
But I want to lobby the Jewish state for only one reason. It is the State where almost each citizen came from elsewhere in the world and each of them carries on the shoulders the pain of humiliating "antisemithism" and "extermination". The State which symbolises a new attitude in our whole modern epouque because of its birth after the recent genocide of Jewry, its extermination from Europe. I just want to make my reasoning around one simple but long question "Why the state of Israel does not Recognise the Genocide of Armenians?"
I don't think that there will be many answers.
I am giving the first one, and I let you do the rest:

"Because it is convinced that the extermination of European Jewry was a "unique" genocide in human history and it cost a lot of blood!" It was the most fascistic answer. I hope your are going to be more human.

I understand your specific position of Israel (holding it to a higher standard) – and I share this. However, the US and other western nations also are tight with Turkey. Should not they also be condemned?
I think we are mixing something. If we take countries which can be "condemned" than the US will take the "Oscar" for the best screenplay. The US scenario works very well in both Turkey and Israel. In the US there is a all-mighty Jewish community which has enourmous power on White house. You should learn the Jewish American Lobby functioning.
There is a book which will give you a very interesting view on American Jewish Lobby, sort of a "true story" from insider - "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman G. Finkelstein

In France there is a very powerful Jewish Lobby, but it did loose against the Armenian lobby. Loosing? - I'm using the "correct" word. "Loosing", because the French Jewish elite in France never had any positive reaction to the Armenian "cause". The worst is that many thinkers and theoritians of denialist ligue were "researchers" of jewish origin. Pretty funny conicidence. I know many Jews here in Paris, whith whom I do work and live in the neighbourhood where jews are living during centuries. Many of them are just smiling when I'm saying what I'm telling here! Some agree by smiling, some think that I'am antisemith. If I was antisemith, I would have invited in that case only French, Russians, Iranians or Armenians. But I do not have Armenians around me, and I do friends with jews, iranians and french, of course. And I do not miss any friend because he was Armenian...Hm! So stupid!
I think that we have to learn a lot from Jewish heritage, but with precaution do not become copycating in evry possible "errors". There is no perfect human experiences on this earth.

Most of worst experiences were possible because some thought that it existed. The perfect - were them. And what do you do when you are really perfect?

-----
Well I'll stop there.

However, you didn't tell me why you did recognise John Frusciante butt though you didn't have any close experience
On the picture I coudn't see butt, it was so distant, far

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[nairakev]

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[THOTH]

Naira -

Reading your thoughts has been a pleasure. I share your positive attitudes (though with some reservations of course)- even if I do not always show it. I will address some of your points in time. (they are all good ones I think).

Briefly (?) -

I have a number of Jewish friends in Paris - one is an activist/educator regarding the Holocaust (and is a concentration camp survivor) - he and they understand that Armenians experienced genocide. (Some of these friends are also Turkish - BTW). Do you know Ber Hakim? Some live near there. I attended and videoed (some of) a ceremony where they read off the names of all of the jews who were taken away from the stadium/ & train station which usd to be there. They read the names by box car - in alphabetical order, lists of families etc. I videoed my friends as their parents and siblings names were read. These were people who did not survive. It was very moving - beyond words. I think the Armenians might think to do something similar - perhaps by village....

I don't see the US as so bad as you (and Horvik etc) seem to think. I don't dispute that US policies and actions have often been detrimental to others and suspect in many ways...but overall I think the US is a moral nation and it has shown great restraint and reluctance to impose itself in many ways where it could. (I know & understand the many counter arguments to this). Argue with this all you might - bottom line is I cannot imagine another nation in this position acting any better. I think that overall the US is a force of good in the world. Thats not saying everything is such or that there are those here who act (purely) in self interest to the detriment of others (nor will I defend some of the past history of atrocities..slavery, destruction of native Americans, Vietnam etc) but - if you look at what the US did for Europe, Asia and the world post WWII (and yes you can be cinical about motivation) - but overall we have behaved and given much more than i would expect others to have done - and better then other "victors" have done in past wars etc. And I think the US does much in the world from good intention (enough said..I wont't argue with you on specifics etc - I am very aware/understanding of charges against etc...but still....)

The demographics that Israel fears is that if they reconcile with the Palestinians and include them they will eventually be overcome (in numbers) by the higher Arab birth rates...they must get over this I think (consistent with some of your thinking I beleive...)

Yes Palestinians are backed into a corner. i have had this discussion with many Jews. "they are so barbaric & ghateful & terrorism is wrong" etc they say...I say - what other option do they have? (Of course I don't approve...but I understand)

Agree with your maturation comments - very much so. Not just the Turks..."us" as well. I understand Ara & MJs reservations...but ultimatly I have great faith in the Armenian people. Our maturation will involve shedding our traditional political leadership and establishing bridges etc ourselves. it will happen - we are creative and the tools for such now exist.

Unification...does not have to mean conformity...

I have had a very good palestinian friend. By his (true) stories alone i can say that Palestinians are second class citizens in Israel...very mush so...and his is not the only evidence of such. Some Jewish friends of mine argue (correctly) that the Palestinians (in Israel outside of the camps of course!) have benefited from Israel - through increased education, standard of living etc. Even throughout the Arab world the Palestinains are the most skilled & educated (Diaspora power baby!)....but of course I could make the same argument for African or Native Americans here in the States. Could I still argue that it is thus justified to withold certain rights and treat these groups differently from the majority, etc?


humour noir...no problem...LOL

I am familiar with "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman G. Finkelstein...though i have not read it. Some would (and do) say the same concerning Armenians & the Genocide...perhaps true (for some)...regardless

I am not a "mixer"....I was on the radio...playing Zappa & Eno & Hawkwind & Genesis & Pink Floyd & Gong & the Stranglers, Kate Bush, Bill Nelson/Be Bop Deluxe, King Krimson/Robert Fripp, XTC, Talking Heads, Nektar, Focus, Peter Hammil, Nina Hagen, National Health, the Groundhogs, Bonzo Dog band, Ornette Coleman, Miles Davis, Passport, Jethro Tull, Gentle Giant...I could go on and on and on (have you ever heard of many of these groups? Likely most are before your time...I do listen to new stuff to...i keep up pretty well actually). I was not very popular (and now of course am even more obscure)...but perhaps I was educational to a few (and I still turn on some "youngsters" today to hidden treasures...). Do you know the Tubes? (White punks on dope...covered by Nina Hagen (TV-Glotzer)?...ooops I devolved into music again (my first love...)

[MJ]

Which reservations are you referring to, THOTH?

[THOTH]

MJ - I refer to your comments concerning the Armenian Church (which I can understand [and agree with]) - but I don't know enough to judge as harshly as you do. And Ara's comments about our leaders and the inability of Armenians to congeal in general. (Is that clear enough?)

[MJ]

But that's not a reservation, but rather an observation.

[THOTH]

Well then accept my apology for misrepresentation. I often have trouble finding the right word - or use them loosly - and I know this can lead to misunderstanding. It is a flaw of mine - I am aware. I only ask that you pause before jumping upon a particualr usage or comment - and if not clear please ask - I will always be happy to elaborate/clarify (or profess my ignorance...)...and I accept substitutions/editorial input...my feelings will not be hurt.

[Harut]

2 tar eskoghm-enkoghm, inch tarberutyun.

[MJ]

No apologies needed, THOTH. You are taking it too serious.

Gilligan...

[nairakev]

THOTH, baby!
There is no conformity in fatality.
---
P.S.
Read "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman G. Finkelstein. Drop reading what critics say. Try self!

[ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]