29 replies to this topic

[nairi]

Some people (including feminists) claim that rape is a matter of power and not sex. The rapists as such doesn't care about the sexual climax as much as the idea of forcing another to submit to their power. Now my question involves man-to-man rape. We all know (I think) that some men tend to rape other men, especially in prison. In Armenia, I've even heard that gay men are arrested on the street and sent to prison to then be raped by their fellow anti-gay prisoners as punishment or mere sexual satisfaction.

My question is: even if those who say that rape is a matter of power are right, how can an anti-gay guy (who gets disgusted at the sight of men having sex) sodomize another man? Are these guys really that not-gay? I find this hard to believe. Either you are completely not gay and would therefore never even be able to get an erection at the site of another man's behind, let alone be able to rape him, or you are gay somewhere without knowing it (or knowing it, but not admitting it). How is an alternative possible? Does the idea of power excite men as well? To the point that they forget what/who they are raping?

Strange...

[Sip]

Talking from a male perspective, the sexual organ in question doesn't really care one way or another. It could be raping a fire hydrant as far as it is concerned. It's all in the brain.

Then again, it is as hard for me to imagine guy on guy rape (or any rape for that matter) as pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger for whatever strange reason (other than self defense).

Edited by Seapahn, 01 December 2004 - 01:49 PM.

[nairi]

So if you were ever blindly angry enough at another guy, rape (over beating up for instance) would not be an option? Or would it be?

[Sip]

Usually when I'm angry that certain body part shrinks to the size of a raisin

[vava]

Um Nairi? Have you been smoking recently?

What a strange question - and to be honest I had never ever contemplated 'rape' as punishment - be it gay or otherwise. It is a heinous, barbaric act and IMO rapists are the lowest form of criminal and deserve to be treated as such.

I find it hard to imagine someone 'anti-gay' sodomizing another male as punishment. It just seems hypocritical (unless of course, his anti-gay attitude was actually a cover up of some repressed sexual urge). In any case, it's rather a repulsive topic of conversation - so I'll just leave.

[Tiggyhonents]

We all know (I think) that some men tend to rape other men, especially in prison. In Armenia, I've even heard that gay men are arrested on the street and sent to prison to then be raped by their fellow anti-gay prisoners as punishment or mere sexual satisfaction.

My question is: even if those who say that rape is a matter of power are right, how can an anti-gay guy (who gets disgusted at the sight of men having sex) sodomize another man? Are these guys really that not-gay? I find this hard to believe. Either you are completely not gay and would therefore never even be able to get an erection at the site of another man's behind, let alone be able to rape him, or you are gay somewhere without knowing it (or knowing it, but not admitting it). How is an alternative possible? Does the idea of power excite men as well? To the point that they forget what/who they are raping?

Strange...

Well, in certain countries and societies (including male only prison society), and perhaps including Armenia, women are either virgins or exist only for making babies and cooking and cleaning. I'd argue that the concept of romance between a man and a woman is mainly a European concept, as is also the idea of someone being "gay". So if it is only sex that men from those other societies want, then sex with another man is as good and as socially acceptable as if it were with a prostitute, (and its probably cheaper!). Wouldn't surprise me if most male - male rape in Europe that is commited by non-homosexuals is commited by Arabs or Africans or Asians.

[Sip]

I find it hard to imagine someone 'anti-gay' sodomizing another male as punishment....

But I myself have wondered the same as to how come these super macho bad ass criminals end up raping each other in prison. I doubt they are particularly gay when sent to prison.

[sev-mard]

Um Nairi? Have you been smoking recently?

What a strange question - and to be honest I had never ever contemplated 'rape' as punishment - be it gay or otherwise. It is a heinous, barbaric act and IMO rapists are the lowest form of criminal and deserve to be treated as such.

I find it hard to imagine someone 'anti-gay' sodomizing another male as punishment. It just seems hypocritical (unless of course, his anti-gay attitude was actually a cover up of some repressed sexual urge). In any case, it's rather a repulsive topic of conversation - so I'll just leave.

Well usually this is a prison or sometimes wartime, some adverse human condition type occurence. As for the prision psyche, that's a whole urish ball of wax right there. Those guys use it all for power, embarrasment and punishment. I mean in prison it's all about strength, having it and showing it, and can you most effectively exert yourself on another person without killing them? Forcing sex, espeically on another man I think psychologically it may be worse that for a female(here me out) because men are macho by nature and that is just an option you never think of as a man. So for a man to be raped by another, or a group, I think the shock of the occurance is tremendous. I agree that I find is unbelievable that someone who isn't homosexual could even get aroused by the act, but it does happen so some how these people have figured out a way. Crazy stuff though, crazy.

[nairi]

Vava, I've actually been sober for over 2 months now Plus, my best posts were written when I was out of my mind.. You should've been able to see that

Regardless, as Sip pointed out: it's not about rape being a crime or not (of course it's a crime!!), but about how otherwise apparently totally anti-gay guys rape other guys for instance in prison (or war, as Sev-Mard suggested). I just don't get it. Maybe it is the biggest torture another man can get, but how does the perpetrator get down to doing it?? That's really my question. If you're so disgusted by homosexuality, how can you get ourself to rape another man? Even if only to humiliate them one way or another. There are SO many other ways to humiliate someone. The question though is: how? How do these guys do it? I could never see myself raping another woman! And not even so much because I'm against rape, but because the thought of having to go down on a girl makes me sick! A guy on the other hand...

[gamavor]

I don't know but perhaps an Idiot visits us again! This time in a form of Tiggyhonents, who most probably spent his entire life on an Island!

Nairi, as to your question - it is a matter of penitentiary system and allowances.
Not all prisoners are engaged in homosexual intercourses, but those that are usually are subtly inclined to such sexual orientation and in both cases it is a combination of the two. To express power and authority, and satisfy sexual desire.

Just to prove my point - the new "recruits" in the prison if not raped are beaten - just for welcome. The Communist penitentiary system was quite severe and such things were rarity, however recently they are successfully coping their western "leading" examples in the field of sodomy and homosexualism (which by the way is very popular in Britain, France and USA) even outside the prison

[Stormig]

I think I've said this before, but sex does tie in with violence somewhat. "Punishing" in this case is like "punishing" prostitutes by rape. I don't know. Lots of thoughts, some seem initially contradictory but are not, really.

[Tiggyhonents]

Maybe it is the biggest torture another man can get, but how does the perpetrator get down to doing it?? That's really my question. If you're so disgusted by homosexuality, how can you get ourself to rape another man? Even if only to humiliate them one way or another. There are SO many other ways to humiliate someone. The question though is: how? How do these guys do it? I could never see myself raping another woman! And not even so much because I'm against rape, but because the thought of having to go down on a girl makes me sick! A guy on the other hand...

Because, I presume, they don't actually see it as them committing a homosexual act. And anyway, most people who commit crimes look on themselves and their actions through very rose-tinted spectacles and can justify to themselves almost anything.

Did anyone see the episode of "The Shield" where the Hispanic head of their department gets raped by some (typically macho) male Hispanic gang members, and, after bottling it up for weeks, eventually tells his wife what happened, and she is so disgusted that he should have "allowed" himself to get raped that she can no longer bear to even be in the same room as him. I'm not sure that the writers were making a specific comment about Spanish-American attitudes to sexuality or not.

[sev-mard]

Because, I presume, they don't actually see it as them committing a homosexual act. And anyway, most people who commit crimes look on themselves and their actions through very rose-tinted spectacles and can justify to themselves almost anything.

Did anyone see the episode of "The Shield" where the Hispanic head of their department gets raped by some (typically macho) male Hispanic gang members, and, after bottling it up for weeks, eventually tells his wife what happened, and she is so disgusted that he should have "allowed" himself to get raped that she can no longer bear to even be in the same room as him. I'm not sure that the writers were making a specific comment about Spanish-American attitudes to sexuality or not.

There have been lots of discussions about this very notion, et episode che desam bayts, from what I've heard in some communities you're not considered gay if you're doing the um "giving." So that may be true. When it comes to gangs, prison, and war time, I still believe it's about power and demoralization. If you're dead youre dead, but being raped and surviving to deal with those thoughts and feelings in your head is a pretty harsh activity and thats why I think men do it to others, simply to impose their will upon them. Hivand..

[Armen]

Man to man rape is Luciferic. Nazism is its ultimate representation.

A normal violence between men is when their Egos fight. If you hurt a man's Ego that's normal. Even if you hurt him physically that's normal. The twist occurs when you hate with all the components of your being. When your etheric body (the body warmth) and emotions/insticts are involved it becomes gay and Nazi.

A normal man's etheric and astral bodies may come into connection only with woman's similar bodies. Although there is a compotent of rape is sex, the sincere attraction and love make that connection positive because escencially the woman rapes you back.

Edited by Armen, 02 December 2004 - 01:15 PM.

[Armen]

Does the idea of power excite men as well? To the point that they forget what/who they are raping?

Nairi, I would suggest you to watch a documentary with one of Hitler's famous speeches. Listen to his voice, how it goes up and down and what happens to the crowd at that moment. The words are clear and intimate. However, there is one crucial point. He plays on the inferior emotion of Germans who lost the First World War. Therefore, the national fealing that he tries to develop is inferior and is destined to lose.
He is hypnotising the nation by an illusion of hatered cemented by the animal instict of a crowd. That's what happens in a man's mind on individual level when he gets into the situation you described. If you dig deep into who are those criminals, I sure you will find out lot of unbelieveable personal dramas, similar to Germans losing the WW1.

[Sasun]

Man to man rape is Luciferic. Nazism is its ultimate representation.

A normal violence between men is when their Egos fight. If you hurt a man's Ego that's normal. Even if you hurt him physically that's normal. The twist occurs when you hate with all the components of your being. When your etheric body (the body warmth) and emotions/insticts are involved it becomes gay and Nazi.

A normal man's etheric and astral bodies may come into connection only with woman's similar bodies. Although there is a compotent of rape is sex, the sincere attraction and love make that connection positive because escencially the woman rapes you back.

Interesting views Armen. The connection between gay and Nazi is not at all apparent.

[vava]

Interesting views Armen. The connection between gay and Nazi is not at all apparent.

Glad it wasn't just me.

[Armen]

Interesting views Armen. The connection between gay and Nazi is not at all apparent.

In this case I was describing the specific type of gays that was brought up in the original postings. The people who rape men are gay, aren't they?

[sev-mard]

In this case I was describing the specific type of gays that was brought up in the original postings. The people who rape men are gay, aren't they?

No they are not "technically" at least that's why I thought we were having this discussion.

As I said, in some circles, take it how you want to, asumum en vor "if you're doing the raping you're not gay". In some Latin cultures I believe they say that. And I believe you have to look at this from the areas where it occurs usually..prision, war time, and maybe gang type affiliations. It's not as if homosexuals prowl the streets and rape unsuspecting heteros. I think this is just power/hate/angst embodied in a vile physical act. I would venture that many of the rapists would claim to not be gay, wouldn't talk about their activities outside of their "world", and probably couldn't even commit them outside of the bubble of prison, war and other trife human realities. Obviously they can commit these acts(which require arousal) but the question is, is the arousal the male behind, or the act they are about to commit and what it will mean in their dehumaniation of an enemy or new guy they are trying to intimidate?

[Armen]

No they are not "technically" at least that's why I thought we were having this discussion.

As I said, in some circles, take it how you want to, asumum en vor "if you're doing the raping you're not gay". In some Latin cultures I believe they say that. And I believe you have to look at this from the areas where it occurs usually..prision, war time, and maybe gang type affiliations. It's not as if homosexuals prowl the streets and rape unsuspecting heteros. I think this is just power/hate/angst embodied in a vile physical act. I would venture that many of the rapists would claim to not be gay, wouldn't talk about their activities outside of their "world", and probably couldn't even commit them outside of the bubble of prison, war and other trife human realities. Obviously they can commit these acts(which require arousal) but the question is, is the arousal the male behind, or the act they are about to commit and what it will mean in their dehumaniation of an enemy or new guy they are trying to intimidate?

Sev, I think I have a problem with semantics then. But clearly they are homosexual. Why? Because if their emotions are not involved they will not have an erection. The thurst for power and control come from Ego. Ego alone cannot turn you on. The flows must pass though the system of instincts, which in their turn arsouse sexual drive. So this twisted desire comes from the imbalance in the setting of instincts, which may be a result of psychological trauma.

E.g. Have you ever wanted to beat someone? Clearly, this should have happened to you. By that you want to humiliate his Ego, not his emotions.