36 replies to this topic

[THOTH]

Gamavor -

not to dispute your story but if SDI was a hoax...and the Russians knew it....then why would they take the effort to develop countermeasures?

And again, be it me to dispute your facts...but where did you get this story from - "Weekly World News"?

[gamavor]

Thoth, my friend the Soviet foreign affairs were based on three sacred words "NET, NET, NET"! Do you think they would have agreed on demolishing their strategic arsenal and in the same time their opponent keeping a reliable space defense facility? The SDI was meant as a defensive structure, but once you eliminate your opponents attack capabilities it turns into offensive structure that prevents the enemy from implementing missile strikes on your territory. The Soviets' countermeasures were on paper just like SDI was on paper. If you don't trust me ask Dr. Teller.

not to dispute your story  but if SDI was a hoax

At the beginning was the Word...Reading my Friend!

but where did you get this story from

I'm tiny plankton in a sea full of sharks

[THOTH]

If you don't trust me ask Dr. Teller.

Funny that you mention him...as many years ago (1980s) - (he just died this last year BTW) - I did just that - twice!

..and you'll just have to take my word that I might know a bit more about these things then you likely do (you being a plankton amongst the sharks aside...)..and I'm not saying that there isn't a bit of truth to your version...but there is certainly a bit more to it...

..and who has "demolished" their strategic arsenal BTW? ...perhaps left out to rust migth be a more appropriate description...though we are certainly not describing all of it....and yes yes - the START treaties...of course...but just how many nukes are left on each side? (I'll leave that for you to research yourself)..and funny though - the Russians are certainly having a time even keeping up agreed upon force levels...meanwhile...

..and as you have implied one of the great difficulties of an SDI (and some so-called defense shield - such as one that might allow one side to sufficiently supress the incomming attack of an enemy to then act with impunity) - is that countermeasures come more easily and cheaply...(and just how many nukes need to get through to ruin ones day eh?)

The Russians were deathly afraid of an SDI for just these reasons however - its "offensive" ability....the ability to counter their ability to strike (US forces)...leaving the US with all the cards - able to call the shots and not fear a Russian counterstrike (all in theory of course). The thing of it is - the Russians are/were always suspicious/paranoid that we could actually pull it off...

[gamavor]

Sorry Thoth but I have the feeling that you are repeating my words with longer sentences. Repeating is the mother of knowledge! Yes, Soviets were paranoid just like Americans. If Americans were not paranoid why would they need SDI??? The difference is that Americans continue to be paranoid for different reasons.

[invizionpolitik]

thank you for clearing this up for me. You see, they do not teach us this in school. we are such ignorant little fools.
I was not arguing for the sake of arguing but for the sake of learning. Thank you.

[Sasun]

One of the myths floating in the US is that the "evil empire" speech given by Reagan plaid a crucial role for the demise of the ex-Soviet Union. The US propaganda machine would like to point out that after hearing this speech the people in the USSR where strongly inspired and encouraged to stand up against their government and that ended the Soviet dictatorship

Guess what, the Soviet people never heard about that speech, neither they gave a damn about any of Reagans speeches.

[invizionpolitik]

hey i'm not saying Raegan was the best pres. he wasn't by far...at the beginning i was just trying to eulogize and show respect for the guy....now if you want to talk about his faults than I can start. sure I agree with you, of course w/out doubt the soviets didn't hear about the speech...why would they give a damn? the only thing i sort of agreed with about that speech that the propaganda is saying is that it got the american people to hate the russians....
more...

[Arpa]

Have we said everything there is to say about a great man?
Do we have any more choler (maghts) to spew?

Is it my turn now?

Can I finally say something?

If any one above could show us a certificate that they have arrived on these coasts on the Nina or the Mayflower maybe then I would take them seriously.

People who have been here even before Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Wilson, Franklin and, yes Reagan think that he belongs in the ranks of all those predecessors, then who are WE to trash a great man and a great American. How has he harmed us? How has he harmed anybody? Remember that it was during his administration that America was the first nation to bring the most humanitarian assistance to Armenia in the aftermath of the Earthquake.

Can we now let him REST IN PEACE??!!

Have Armenians always been in the trash(ing) business? Is the Kardashian sanitation company our signature?

Armenians are fabled to be the most hospitable people. How dare we enter a house and insult the homeowner? Who invited us anyway??!!
When did we learn to defecate in the plate that we eat from??!! Or are we "first" in that art also??!!

As to being in the "trashing business" see my next post about "trashing".

[Anonymouse]

Why has this thread gone to two pages? I'm ashamed of you people.

[Sasun]

Chill down Arpa, I am sure Raegan is quite peaceful. People are talking about him as a politician, nobody is gossiping about him as a person while being guests in his house. Hospitality has nothing to do with criticizing a politician or politics. I am a guest in this country but I have no problem criticizing its aggression against another country or other wrongdoings. As far as my obligations to the "host", I pay taxes.

[angel4hope]

even the greatest of heroes and so forth have people who dislike them.... thats just life, you cannot please everyone... but yes let him rest in peace... no disrespect intended- im sure he was a great man and a great father/husband, just because i dont think he was the greatest politician doesnt mean much- im just voicing my opinion like any other person.... but yes arpa good point- it is sad, but hey criticism can be bad but can be good also-i dunno

[invizionpolitik]

hey i was just trying to eulogize i guess i shouldn't have stretched it to the political level, huh? well it's nice to know someone isn't attacking me for having tried to say something nice about him.
However arpa, on the same token, it is our duties as americans (wether we have been in this land for generations or for minutes) to give back to our country what has been given to us and use it for the best: the right to be heard, to voice our opinions. America will only go forward if it lives on the criticisms of others that it tries to improve. We do let the guy rest in peace, but at the same time we say that whatever he did wrong should not be repeated by future presidents...

[Anoushik]

I'm wondering, what is it that he did do wrong? What could he have done differently? And why doesn't he deserve to be called one of the greatest presidents?

I didn't participate in this thread because I didn't know much about Reagan's presidency. But I remember that occasionally, whenever my dad talked about America and its politics he always said, and still says, that Reagan was one of the best presidents, if clearly not the best.

I read this weeks TIME issue about Reagan and it seems to me that one of the most important reason he is considered great is because, to paraphrase, he brought back faith and hope to the Americans.

Also, today my dad was watching the new Armenian program "Batsahaytum" and the host took the time to acknowledge Reagan's death. He told some interesting things, like the fact that his inauguration speech in 1980 had been written by an Armenian. Also he talked about the close relationship Reagan had had with the Armenian community in CA because of his friendship with California Governor Deukmejian.

[THOTH]

No disrespect to his virtues as a human being - and I do think that Reagan had many good qualities in this regard - but I believe that the Reagan presidency will go down as one of the worst in our history. During his administration we were saddled with tremendous national debt - when he campaigned to reduce such - same with dependency on foreign oil - more rather then less...trade deficits...and demise of small business in this country...not to mention the savings and loan debacle, billions wasted on dubious defense initiatives (including SDI - with waste like you cannot imagine).

And to credit his administrations policies with the downfall of the Soviet Union is a bit of a streach...the Soviet Union fell because of a cumilation of mismanagement, coruption and just outright failure to allow humans to do their thing (Communist system is just against human nature..) - and from internal pressures from groups - like/including Armenians (NK) - who were disatisfied with their reppression and the status quo - and who exploited the cracks of perestroika to press their points. The Soviet Union's fall was inevitable...though perhaps hastened by wasteful military spending (and much of the real imporvements in military capability for the US were from initiatives begun under the Carter administration).

And who can forget things such as the Air Traffic controllers strike where Reagan's administration sacked all of them - when they had very legitamate greivances (then they re-name an airport after him...). Much of the so called Reagan revolution was illusuroy. Old school conservatives like to think he was their great white hope - or what have you - but in fact he betrayed most of their (economic values). Sure he helped make the (corporate and individual) rich richer - and Trickle down economics was just that - a trickle for the working class - at best. And of course socially I believe that the legitimization of the arch religious conservative factions during Reagans time has been a major step backward for our nation with continuing damage through the various Bush administrations - including arch-conservative judgeships, environmental retrogradism, assaults against individual rights (again a betrayal of true conservative principals IMO). And who can forget Ketchup as a vegtable, James Watt (sec of Interior) and the rape of our nations forests and natural lands etc etc etc

[Stormig]

Good... I had been wondering how much an actor could have had going for him as a president. I hope Arnie isn't remembered in the same light some day, hate to even bring him up I may... But I thought Bush was the worst president of U.S. history.

[THOTH]

Sr or Jr?

And Arnie can't become Pres - at least not without a constitutional amendment...as we was born in Austria...

And BTW - I didn't even mention Iran-Contra...some real dirty deeds there....(and Bush Sr was very well able to hide his role...)

[bellthecat]

In his foreshadowing of what was to come, Reagan was to Bush (junior) what John the Baptist was to Jesus. Or, more accurately, a sort of anti-John the Baptist to the Anti-Christ. Or, an attack of shivers before the full effect of the plague strikes you.

Edited by bellthecat, 14 June 2004 - 05:52 AM.