265 replies to this topic

[Z'areh]

Voilà:

[size=3]» ՀԱՅ-ԹՐՔԱԿԱՆ - Հայաստանի եւ Թուրքիայի միջեւ դիւանագիտական յարաբերութիւնների հաստատման եւ «ընդհանուր սահմանը որոշող համապատասխան պայմանագրեր»-ի մասին

ԱՐԱ ՊԱՊԵԱՆ
«Մոդուս վիւենդի» կենտրոնի ղեկավար

Thanks Hellector,

Shad pari, lav hasganali, BUT:

All what I'm saying is regardless of what Ara Papian says, if the President of Armenia, and with him the so-called parliament, embarks on yet another կոպիտ խախտումով signing of understanding (call it a treaty, agreement, protocol or whatever) in which Armenia announces "we don't have any border issues with Turkey", who is going to bring up Vienna convention ? Turkey? US? EU? Russia?

They are going to say, as Erdogan is saying now, the past is over!!

[MosJan]

chem kartsum storagry, kartsum em iys amen@ ughaki tatrone ir koghmits ashxarhin nerkayatsnelu hamar te tesek yes hamadziyn eyi vorpe s prezident, sakayn im joghovird@ yev spyurq@ hamadziyn che.. dra hamar el chem storagrelu... his going to use opposition & Armenian diaspora as a Scape Goat

[Harut]

chem kartsum storagry, kartsum em iys amen@ ughaki tatrone ir koghmits ashxarhin nerkayatsnelu hamar te tesek yes hamadziyn eyi vorpe s prezident, sakayn im joghovird@ yev spyurq@ hamadziyn che.. dra hamar el chem storagrelu... his going to use opposition & Armenian diaspora as a Scape Goat

ays qani orva shrjagayutyunic, handipumneric aveli parz klini...

imijiayloc, hetaqrqir a ays nisteri footage-ner@ kan internetum?

http://www.armeniano...i...255&lng=eng

[Harut]

i don't know what to make of this... it seems he's already made his mind, and the rest (all the debates, meetings, etc.) is just fluff to illustrate his democratic and inclusive approach to administration...

http://www.hairenik....an-in-new-york/

[Harut]

one would think that a document to normalize relationship between these two countries would be 2 sentences long:

turkey agrees to end its blocade of armenia and establish diplomatic and economic ties with armenia.
armenia agrees to establish diplomatic and economic ties with turkey.

[Em]

yete Hayastan@ chstoragri iys paymanagir@ , amenavat depqum inch k@patahi HAyastanin yev Artsaxin ??

mez EU chen @enduni ?? sev jahhnami gyor@ @ndunen !!!
minchev hiam HAyastan@ & HAykakan HArtsn eyin ogtagortsum turqyain vaxetsnelu hamar, menq el EU'its k@hrajarevenq, togh irenq vonst uzzum en irents turq axpor het ashxaten..

inch enq anelu mez yete ch@storagrenq ??


vay knereq moratsa russakan factor@, hayastani ardyunaberutyan mets mas@ russnerin e patkanum, gaz luys .... rus@ inchpes asi etpes el k@lini....


ur en serji jatagoiv pashtpanoghner@?? en or dosh eyin talsi serji hamar yev n@ra hantsagorts qaylarshavi ? tesaq inch yeghav ???

APRES!

[Hellektor]

isk inchpes karrogh e Hayastan@ chstoragrel iys paymanagir@ ??

Ardyoq na iravunq uni popoxutyuner mtsnelu iys protocolneri mej, inchpes yes em tesneum yete turq@ ir paymannern e teladrum apa Hayn el pit ir paymanner@ teladri ?? inchu chen arel ?? inchu gone mek payman ch@ka vor@ mer ogtin e ??

Not even that! The modern, secular, democratic, European Turkey who aspires to become an EU member, has imposed a blockade (a blatant act of war) on Armenia since 1993 in front of the eyes of the world. Yet, since they and their Judeo-Saxon buddies DENY or go totally blind in the face of any wrongdoing or misbehavior from these genocidal parasites, distort the most recent history, deny the blockade and put Armenia on the same genocidal level, thus:

”The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey ...Guided by the Protocol... Agree to open the common border.”

Couldn't our lousy, worthless, illiterate “diplomats” have DEMANDED that at least this one, blatant lie be corrected and be expressed, for instance, this way?

The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey... Guided by the Protocol... reach an agreement for the Republic of Turkey to lift the unilateral blockade of the Republic of Armenia?

Of course not! Our vaay-diplomats are career-monger, indifferent thugs, they are total garbage.

[Hellektor]

Thanks Hellector,

Shad pari, lav hasganali, BUT:

All what I'm saying is regardless of what Ara Papian says, if the President of Armenia, and with him the so-called parliament, embarks on yet another կոպիտ խախտումով signing of understanding (call it a treaty, agreement, protocol or whatever) in which Armenia announces "we don't have any border issues with Turkey", who is going to bring up Vienna convention ? Turkey? US? EU? Russia?

They are going to say, as Erdogan is saying now, the past is over!!

Dear Z'areh,

If you follow Ara Papian's articles, you'll see that the current dealings are ILLEGAL according to the Judeo-Saxons' own so-called international laws. Whether these are implemented or not, whether these are mere papers or not and only money and guns talk, are not the issue. The point is, neither Serj, nor Erdogan, nor Boragh Hossein, nor anybody, they simply CANNOT undo the AGREED ARBITRATION of Woodrow Wilson which became legal the moment they put their signatures under Sèvres. The down side of this is that legally speaking we cannot demand Cilicia or Kharbert or any territory beyond (or even smaller) than that within Wilson's borders. Capice? I really don't know why THIS is not getting across. I never say they’ll cede territory from one day to the other. The only way they could undo the Wilson Arbitration is to gather ALL the signing countries and redraw the borders.

What I'm trying to say is that, if you read the Ara Papian article I posted, these protocols are worthless in that regard, they are not the place for recognizing borders, they are not authorized according to their own international law that is, to decide, confirm, draw and I don't know what, borders. Get it? I'm saying that we do have a strong document according to their own international law, regardless of politics, military might and money, which, had we decent, literate politicians, would give us a definite edge in these talks and which these worthless thugs at the head of the RoA are incapable of grasping or unwilling to grasp. Please don't say you didn't get it this time, though I'll be more than glad to further clarify what I was saying.

That the genocidal Turk will howl like wolves that “See! Armenia recognized the Kars treaty by signing these protocols” and that their Judaic lovers will whimper like swine in accordance despite their knowledge to the illegality of the document, is beyond question. That given decent and capable politicians we can tell them to go screw themselves is another matter, the present lack of such people (or the impossibility of such to operate, given the level of political awareness among the masses) is another story.

[Z'areh]

The only way they could undo the Wilson Arbitration is to gather ALL the signing countries and redraw the borders.

Yes Hell jan, I understand you very well, I've always understood that.

Flash news: Turkey's borders have been redrawn apparently quit successfully, new borders have been "up-to-dated" to potentially include Kirkuk. In the mean time Sargsyan is busy recognizing them too.

One day we will flash Wilson's arbitration against the faces of all our enemies, and they will crumble.

Let's talk again when that happens. In the mean time mer akhperdek Hayastanoum biznis en anelou harevani hed. Armenian Tour organizers are getting ready preparing posters with "Praying in Akhtamar" logos.



Menk enk mer..(Sarer@)....biznismenner@


One day Hell jan, one day !!

[Zartonk]

Menk enq mer Grpannere@ Zareh jan...

[Em]

A friend shared a link with me today. It may be of interest to some.

http://www.aiprg.net/en/content/169/

[Em]

Another friend shared a different link.

http://vids.myspace....ideoid=63858595

[Em]

http://www.eurasiane...eav100509.shtml

[MosJan]

http://hyemedia.com/..._and_Turkey.pdf


FULL TEXT OF THE PROTOCOLS SIGNED BY TURKEY AND ARMENIA

Press release by the Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Foreign of the Republic of Armenia and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkey
31 August 2009
Berne, Yerevan, Ankara, 31 August 2009
The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey have agreed to start their internal political consultations on the two protocols – the "Protocol on the establishment of diplomatic relations" and the "Protocol on the development of bilateral relations" – which have been initiated in the course of their efforts under Swiss mediation.
The two Protocols provide for a framework for the normalization of their bilateral relations within a reasonable timeframe. The political consultations will be completed within six weeks, following which the two Protocols will be signed and submitted to the respective Parliaments for the ratification on each side. Both sides will make their best efforts for the timely progression of the ratification in line with their constitutional and legal procedures.
The normalization of bilateral relations will contribute to the regional peace and stability. The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey are committed are pursuing their joint efforts with the assistance of Switzerland.

[MosJan]

PROTOCOL ON
THE ESTABLISHMENT OF DIPLPMATIC RELATIONS BETWEEN
THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA AND THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY
The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey,
Desiring to establish good neighborly relations and to develop bilateral cooperation in the political, economic, cultural and other fields for the benefit of their peoples, as envisaged in the Protocol on the development of relations signed on the same day, Referring to their obligation under the Charter of the United Nations, the Helsinki Final Act, the Charter of Paris for a New Europe, Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers, Bearing in mind the importance of the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere of trust and confidence between the two countries that will contribute to the strengthening of peace, security and stability of the whole region, as wll as being determined to refrain from the threat or the use of force, to promote the peaceful settlement of disputes, and to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms, Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law, Emphasizing their decision to open the common border.
Reiterating their commitment to refrain from pursuing any policy incompatible with the spirit of good neighborly relations, Condemning all forms of terrorism, violence and extremism irrespective of their cause, pledging to refrain from encouraging and tolerating such acts and to cooperate in combating against them, Affirming their willingness to chart a new pattern and course for their relations on the basis of common interests, goodwill and in pursuit of peace, mutual understanding and harmony, Agree to establish diplomatic relations as of the date of the entry into force of this Protocol in accordance with the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 and to exchange Diplomatic Missions.
This Protocol and the Protocol on the Development of Bilateral Relations between The Republic of Armenia and The Republic of Turkey shall enter into force on the same day, i.e. on the first day of the first month following the exchange of instruments of ratification.
Signed in (place) on (date) in Armenian, Turkish and English authentic copies in duplicate. In case of divergence of interpretation English shall prevail.


FOR THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA FOR THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY

[MosJan]

PROTOCOL ON
DEVELOPMENT OF RELATIONS
BETWEEN
THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA AND THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY
The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey,
Guided by the Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey signed on the same day,
Considering the perspectives of developing their bilateral relations, based on confidence and respect to their mutual interests,
Determining to develop and enhance their bilateral relations, in the political, economic, energy, transport, scientific, technical, cultural issues and other fields, based on common interests of both countries,
Supporting the promotion of the cooperation between the two countries in the international and regional organizations, especially within the framework of the UN, the OSCE, the Council of Europe, the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council and the BSEC,
Taking into account the common purpose of both States to cooperate for enhancing regional stability and security for ensuring the democratic and sustainable development of the region,
Reiterating their commitment to the peaceful settlement of regional and international disputes and conflicts on the basis of the norms and principles of international law,
Reaffirming their readiness to actively support the actions of the international community in addressing common security threats to the region and world security and stability, such as terrorism, transnational organized crimes, illicit trafficking of drugs and arms,
1. Agree to open the common border within 2 months after the entry into force of this Protocol,
2. Agree to
conduct regular political consultations between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the two countries;
implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;
make the best possible use of existing transport, communications and energy infrastructure and networks between the two countries, and to undertake measures in this regard;
develop the bilateral legal framework in order to foster cooperation between the two countries;
cooperate in the fields of science and education by encouraging relations between the appropriate institutions as well as promoting the exchange of specialists and students, and act with the aim of preserving the cultural heritage of both sides and launching common cultural projects;

[MosJan]

establish consular cooperation in accordance with the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963 in order to provide necessary assistance and protection to the citizens of the two countries;
take concrete measures in order to develop trade, tourism and economic cooperation between the two countries;
engage in a dialogue and reinforce their cooperation on environmental issues.
3. Agree on the establishment of an intergovernmental bilateral commission which shall comprise separate sub-commissions for the prompt implementation of the commitments mentioned in operational paragraph 2 above in this Protocol. To prepare the working modalities of the intergovernmental commission and its sub-commissions, a working group headed by the two Ministers of Foreign Affairs shall be created 2 months after the day following the entry into force of this Protocol. Within 3 months after the entry into force of this Protocol, these modalities shall be approved at ministerial level. The intergovernmental commission shall meet for the first time immediately after the adoption of the said modalities. The sub-commissions shall start their work at the latest 1 month thereafter and they shall work continuously until the completion of their mandates. Where appropriate, international experts shall take part in the sub-commissions.
The timetable and elements agreed by both sides for the implementation of this Protocol are
mentioned in the annexed document, which is an integral part of this Protocol.
This Protocol and the Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey shall enter into force on the same day, i.e. on the first day of the first month following the exchange of instruments of ratification.
Signed in (date, place) in Armenian, Turkish and English authentic copies in duplicate. In case of divergence of interpretation, the English text shall prevail
FOR THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA FOR THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY
Annexed document: Timetable and elements for the implementation of the Protocol on development of relations between the Republic of Armenia the and the Republic of Turkey

[MosJan]

Timetable and elements for the implementation of the Protocol on development of relations between the Republic of Turkey and the Republic of Armenia
Steps to be undertaken
Timing
1. to open the common border
within 2 months after the entry into force of the Protocol on the development of relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey
2. to establish a working group headed by the two Ministers of Foreign Affairs to prepare the working modalities of the intergovernmental commission and its sub-commissions
2 months after the day following the entry into force of the Protocol on the development of relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey
3. to approve the working modalities of the intergovernmental commission and its sub-commissions at ministerial level
within 3 months after the entry into force of the Protocol on the development of relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey
4. to organize the first meeting of the intergovernmental commission
immediately after the adoption of the working modalities of the intergovernmental commission and its sub-commissions at ministerial level
5. to operate the following sub-commissions:
- the sub-commission on political consultations;
- the sub-commission on transport, communications and energy infrastructure and networks;
- the sub-commission on legal matters;
- the sub-commission on science and education;
- the sub-commission on trade, tourism and economic cooperation;
- the sub-commission on environmental issues; and
- the sub-commission on the historical dimension to implement a dialogue with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations, in which Armenian , Turkish as well as Swiss and other international experts shall take part.
at the latest 1 month after the first meeting of the intergovernmental commission
FOR THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA FOR THE REPUBLIC OF TURKEY

[MosJan]

sireliner jan mek angam norits kardatseq sa xndem, 2 jam kardaluts heto yes sxal ban chem gtnum iyd protocoli mej, iyl asem nuynisk kjaseyi turqin stipum en Hayi het havasari pes varvel....

http://www.armeniano...ol_Analysis.pdf

Both Turkey and Armenia must ratify the text before this Protocol becomes actionable.
Item 1 is the clause that serves as the basis for opening the border. However, how open it would be and restrictions of its use by the parties, is not stated.
Item 2 refers to the furtherance of bilateral relations, but in particular notes a bilateral commission to be established to examine the “historical” record. While not explicitly stated, the overarching historical issue is the genocide of the Armenians. It is generally understood this is the paramount issue that will be examined.
Item 3 is a procedural item referring to implementing Item 2.
Since Armenia has long stated its desire to enter into discussions with Turkey without any preconditions to affect a resolution of Item 1 -- lifting the Turkish border blockade -- it can be assumed that Item 2 was a Turkish initiative. It is also assumed that Turkey was never strategically or fundamentally against opening the border, judging by its current tactical interests.

[MosJan]

"inchu en aghavaghum mejtegh gtsum iunch ases , urishin mi lseq, estegh hogheri masin ban chi grats, HAykakan HArtsi het kapvats voch mi hakasogh vnasogh ban chem tesnum yes,"

te sxal em aseq yes el imanam