23 replies to this topic

[Sasun]

Friedrich Nietzsche


Love

The spiritualization of sensuality is called love: it is a great triumph over Christianity.

Obviously he was an idiot to say this... but this is off topic so i won't say anything else

[angel4hope]

hey sasunchick jan...please do say it...id like to know..even if its against what i "believe" id rather know...hey maybe what u know can be a better explanation...maybe its a better idea lol

[Sasun]

hey sasunchick jan...please do say it...id like to know..even if its against what i "believe" id rather know...hey maybe what u know can be a better explanation...maybe its a better idea lol

Angel jan, love is a very fundamental and transcendental concept. It is never a something of something else. Nitzshe was such a confused ignorant fool to say that. Actually, when I was younger I admired Nitzshe, he is indeed smart and perhaps a genius - however he is very much confused. In other words, he has developed a very solid and attractive philosophy the basis of which is falsehood. Therefore, it crumbles.
I don't know if this makes any appeal... as far as "love" is concerned it is the foundation of humanity. I believe we have talked about this in another thread (can't remember which one). Love is very powerful in its pure form. What is ordinarily known as "love" is in fact lust and emotional attachment. True love is never binding but liberating.

[gurgen]

Actually, when I was younger I admired Nitzshe, he is indeed smart and perhaps a genius - however he is very much confused. In other words, he has developed a very solid and attractive philosophy the basis of which is falsehood. Therefore, it crumbles.

Would you care to explain what this 'falsehood' is?

I know it's but I'd like to know your opinion.

[Sasun]

Would you care to explain what this 'falsehood' is?

I know it's but I'd like to know your opinion.

Sure, the falsehood is human Ego and its much undeserved glorification.

[gurgen]

That is a personal matter yes, but I believe Nietzsche has a point in saying that everything we do is a selfish act, whether we mean it or not.

E.g. when we help someone we do it to feel good about ourselves.


But I'm sure you've read all this a long time ago

Edited by gurgen, 09 February 2004 - 11:32 AM.

[Sasun]

That is a personal matter yes, but I believe Nietzsche has a point in saying that everything we do is a selfish act, whether we mean it or not.

E.g. when we help someone we do it to feel good about ourselves.


But I'm sure you've read all this a long time ago

I used to travel with a few books always with me, one of them was by Nitzshe.

We act to find some kind of satisfaction. In my understanding, there are 2 types of satisfaction, selfish satisfaction and self-less satisfaction. The first one is for the lower self, the Ego, and the second one is for the universal, higher Self, the Soul. The way I understand, Nietzshe doesn't differentiate between the these two.

[gurgen]

We act to find some kind of satisfaction. In my understanding, there are 2 types of satisfaction, selfish satisfaction and self-less satisfaction. The first one is for the lower self, the Ego, and the second one is for the universal, higher Self, the Soul. The way I understand, Nietzshe doesn't differentiate between the these two.

No, indeed Nietzsche believes that everything is selfish.

But I see your point I think and you put it beautifully.
Am I right in assuming that by 'the universal, higher Self, the Soul' you mean that when we do something good for someone else, we soothe our own soul and make oursleves better persons, even if the underlying and suppressed motives are selfish?

Though you make a strong point, it is based on a little bit belief. Nietzsche could never take your viewpoint because he does not really believe is a soul or a higher self nor does he believe in God.

[Sasun]

Am I right in assuming that by 'the universal, higher Self, the Soul' you mean that when we do something good for someone else, we soothe our own soul and make oursleves better persons, even if the underlying and suppressed motives are selfish?

I think it all depends on our motives. If we are helping only because we think that's the right thing to do and not with any other motives then I think it is not selfish. I guess you could call it soothing the soul but the soul is never selfish. It will urge you do things out of compassion and love. It is a spontaneous feeling of good, there are no calculations or desire.
But it could be that we know helping others is the right thing to do but also it will bring us name or fame, or perhaps we expect to be helped in exchange, in that case we are being selfish. In other words there is some expectation for yourself. I guess this could happen also on the subconcious level. At any event, one doesn't get a full satisfaction out of a selfish act. There is always something lacking to feel satisfied.

Though you make a strong point, it is based on a little bit belief. Nietzsche could never take your viewpoint because he does not really believe is a soul or a higher self nor does he believe in God.

You are right, it is based on faith. But what is faith really? It is the soul's knowledge which Nietzshe was lacking I think. All that he has said came from his limited and imperfect mind. He proclaimed that God is dead - a typical gigantic arrogant remark by him. This is also a sort of faith created by the misguinding ego. Well, that's how I personally feel

[THOTH]

Sasun - that is a laugh...LOL...claiming that Nietzshe's mind was somehow limited...in comparison to yours perhaps - LOL...well I may not agree with all he proposes...(not sure I even understand all of it...nor have I read nearly all...)...but I think he has many valid points (reagding Christianity specifically)..ah well - back to this...no I think there are 63 pieces to self...! I mean WTF...inuit have many words for the white stuff we just call snow...but does that make it any different? Lets see - satisfaction in groups of 10 or more...satisfaction while fully clothed, satisfaction when partially in water, satisfaction when standing on one leg...damn...can't remember all of them..anyway...

[den_wolf]

Sasun, have you read Thus Spake Zarathustra? It's brilliant. Hey, maybe we need a Nietzche (I know my spelling!! ) thread. I'm glad people are interested in Philosophy. So check out the Spinoza thread too, damnit. It's not that hard!

[ckBejug]

Sasun, have you read Thus Spake Zarathustra?  It's brilliant. Hey, maybe we need a Nietzche (I know my spelling!! ) thread. I'm glad people are interested in Philosophy. So check out the Spinoza thread too, damnit. It's not that hard!

Thus Spoke Zarathustra.... I agree it's GREAT!! (When Zarathustra was thirty years old, he left his home and the lake of his home, and went into the mountains. There he enjoyed his spirit and his solitude, and for ten years did not weary of it.) I only wish I knew Russian so I could read the original version, no translations... I also like Ecce Homo. There needs to be more hours in a day because I feel there is not enough time to read and digest all these incredible incredible works. That's quite a disappointment....












Also, I believe in love. Definitely... (just to come back to the topic at hand )

Edited by Justlooking, 09 February 2004 - 07:03 PM.

[gevo27]

I think it all depends on our motives. If we are helping only because we think that's the right thing to do and not with any other motives then I think it is not selfish. I guess you could call it soothing the soul but the soul is never selfish. It will urge you do things out of compassion and love. It is a spontaneous feeling of good, there are no calculations or desire.
But it could be that we know helping others is the right thing to do but also it will bring us name or fame, or perhaps we expect to be helped in exchange, in that case we are being selfish. In other words there is some expectation for yourself. I guess this could happen also on the subconcious level. At any event, one doesn't get a full satisfaction out of a selfish act. There is always something lacking to feel satisfied.



You are right, it is based on faith. But what is faith really? It is the soul's knowledge which Nietzshe was lacking I think. All that he has said came from his limited and imperfect mind. He proclaimed that God is dead - a typical gigantic arrogant remark by him. This is also a sort of faith created by the misguinding ego. Well, that's how I personally feel

Den_Wolf you should remember the argument for this from James Rachels book.. Elements of moral philosophy,, lol.. There was an argument made ( its ben a while so i dont know names and details) but there was an argument made in this book by a philosopher that every action of a human is fundamentally based on his own self achievement at the end. And the arguemtn ran into a dead wall.. LOL.. It sugested that everything you do, you are thinking of yourself, thus making it impossible to be "unselfish".. He tried to prrove this by many examples as you can imagine, but where his arguement failed was when it assumed what people actually felt and what there hearts were really thinking.. So not every action has a selfish root to it..

Sry if this is off topic, but in some ways it can relate to love because we can see that no, not everything we do is for our self gratification, loving has to be unselfish, or else it wont work..

and Den jan, if this argument is not from james rachels.. lol.. then sry i am confusing it with the other books, but im pretty sure it is..

[den_wolf]

Gevo, that would be Thomas Hobbes, I believe. I'm not sure if it's in Rachels' book, I didn't look through it, although in the table of contents, there is a chapter about it.

Re: Psychological Egoism.

Edited by den_wolf, 09 February 2004 - 08:15 PM.

[gevo27]

Gevo, that would be Thomas Hobbes, I believe. I'm not sure if it's in Rachels' book, I didn't look through it, although in the table of contents, there is a chapter about it.

Re: Psychologica Egoism.

I will fidn that dang book. lol.. i stored it somewhere, i didnt sell it back cause i thaught it be better use for me if i kept it then the lawsy 10 ucks i would get for it!..

But Thomas Hobbs,, hmm.. sure i dont know for sure the names...

[den_wolf]

One of these days, I will start an all-encompassing philosophy thread, so that all philosophy discussions can go in there. Let's see what would happen if I do that. Hopefully there will be enough interest on the part of members to post there. It seems like members of this forum have an immense fascination for being offtopic, and when the time comes for them to talk about the same thing in a relevant topic, they shy away. But yes, that book is a great one. Very interesting.

Another good book is Jeffrey Olen's Applying Ethics. And maybe I should also start a thread for philosophical book listings.

[angel4hope]

den wolf ill be the first one there posting under the thread i love philosophy, but i hope i didnt contribute much to the off topic"-ness" of the other thread

[den_wolf]

den wolf ill be the first one there posting under the thread i love philosophy, but i hope i didnt contribute much to the off topic"-ness" of the other thread

Oh, not at all. I am not one to judge. I am merely an observer. So do not mind my views.

[Sasun]

Sasun, have you read Thus Spake Zarathustra? It's brilliant. Hey, maybe we need a Nietzche (I know my spelling!! ) thread. I'm glad people are interested in Philosophy. So check out the Spinoza thread too, damnit. It's not that hard!

Yes den_wolf, I read that book. At the time I was extremely fascinated. However, now I have a problem with his philosophy. Btw, he keeps repeating the same thing from different angles in all his works (that I have read). His idea of the Superman is a false concept.

[gurgen]

I only wish I knew Russian so I could read the original version, no translations...

You might want to note that Nietzsche was German.




His book is indeed great, though some parts are quite impossible to read.


But I believe we were talking about love. Maybe you should split this thread Sasun.