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Muslim Armenian?


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#1 Sassun

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 02:41 PM

Hi guys,
Long time no see.

I wanted to discuss the question of whether or not as Armenians you would consider an Armenian convert to Islam as an Armenian? If yes, why, and if no, why not?

(I wanted to add a poll but I don't know why it didn't work.)

Edited by Sassun, 24 May 2007 - 02:43 PM.


#2 Armenak

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 02:45 PM

I would, but why do such a thing?

#3 Eurocentric

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 02:54 PM

Hell no.
I'm fine with pagans, atheists and and all denominations of Christianity.

No jews or muslims though.

#4 Sassun

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE(Armenak @ May 24 2007, 11:45 PM)  
I would, but why do such a thing?

What do you mean why do such a thing?

If someone converts to Islam it means he believes that Muhammad is the Prophet and also abides by the Qur'an.

Hmm.. maybe I misunderstood your question.

Edited by Sassun, 24 May 2007 - 03:02 PM.


#5 Yervant1

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:05 PM

It's ok as long their women don't wear burkas. tongue.gif


Edited by Yervant1, 24 May 2007 - 03:10 PM.


#6 Armenak

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:12 PM

Sassun,

I think when you become a Muslim, you pretty much adopt and assimilate into the Arab culture (for example, prayers must be said in Arabic). Every Muslim community has done this, including the Turks (their vocabulary, for example).

Edited by Armenak, 24 May 2007 - 03:13 PM.


#7 Armenak

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:14 PM

Apparently the Islam can also form new ethnic groups: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks

#8 Sassun

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:17 PM

QUOTE(Yervant1 @ May 25 2007, 12:05 AM)  
It's ok as long their women don't wear burkas. tongue.gif

Burkas?

Or you mean Hijab?

They're different things.

Hijab is obligatory but Burkas and Niqab not.

#9 Sassun

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:21 PM

QUOTE(Armenak @ May 25 2007, 12:12 AM)  
Sassun,

I think when you become a Muslim, you pretty much adopt and assimilate into the Arab culture (for example, prayers must be said in Arabic). Every Muslim community has done this, including the Turks (their vocabulary, for example).

I don't know if I agree.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, and they have their own language and have not assimilated into Arab culture (but then, what is Arab culture? There is more than one Arab culture, if you go to Gulf states it is entirely different than in say Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or even Egypt...).

And as for Arabic words in Turkish, is that the case, or it's the other way around?

I know that there are many Turkish words in some Lebanese dialects, particularly the South Lebanese one.

For example , for towel we say "manshafe", they say "bashkir". Some Armenians also say "peshgir". wink.gif

#10 Armenak

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:26 PM

QUOTE(Sassun @ May 24 2007, 02:21 PM)  
Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, and they have their own language and have not assimilated into Arab culture (but then, what is Arab culture? There is more than one Arab culture, if you go to Gulf states it is entirely different than in say Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or even Egypt...).

I was going to bring them up. The Indonesian word for "world" is dunia. tongue.gif

If you're thinking about it, I guess you should go for it. Though personally, I would convert to the Maronite or Coptic churches before considering Islam.

#11 ALMA

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:39 PM

QUOTE(Armenak @ May 24 2007, 10:12 PM)  
Sassun,

I think when you become a Muslim, you pretty much adopt and assimilate into the Arab culture (for example, prayers must be said in Arabic). Every Muslim community has done this, including the Turks (their vocabulary, for example).

La illahe alla, muhammade rasulla, bismillah ramone rahim something similar right?

I would never, I'm religious and proud Christian, but even if I weren’t I’d never become Muslim I believe Islam is pretty much of an evil religion.
There was a program on the TV, A Muslim guy was talking and he went on to say that he's Muslim if someone hits him, he'll kill the person, then he added- I'm not a Christian to turn my other chick I’ll just kill the person

#12 Sassun

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE(Armenak @ May 25 2007, 12:26 AM)  
I was going to bring them up. The Indonesian word for "world" is dunia. tongue.gif

tongue.gif
Well, I think that the linguistic issue (in terms of daily usage and not prayer) is a bit separate from religion except in places where Arabic has become the "native" language of the population following conquests (in North Africa for example, where there are significant Berber populations that speak tamazight)... I mean, there are many words that are kind of similar across many languages. For example,

Sugar
Armenian: շաքար
Arabic: (sukkar) سكّر
Hebrew: סכר (sukar)

wink.gif

I'm no linguist, so I don't know which came from which. But clearly there are words that are the same or similar, and this has nothing to do with religion. Though I will give you the "dunia" example. biggrin.gif I think you are talking about words that have to do with religious/spiritual/philosophical matters. Because otherwise, I think Islam is compatible with day-to-day usage of a language other than Arabic (non-Muslim Armenians in Lebanon incorporate Arabic words in their language, too).

QUOTE
If you're thinking about it, I guess you should go for it. Though personally, I would convert to the Maronite or Coptic churches before considering Islam.

I'm not "thinking" about it. tongue.gif

It's good to know that people are (somewhat -- pending further replies....) open-minded. There seems to be this animosity against Muslims amongst Armenians. It's understandable that there is the issue of Genocide and Turkey and also Azerbaijan but I think that should not be a hindrance to more tolerance. I think that Armenians are overprotective from Islam because they are afraid it will rob them of their roots and achieve what was not achieved through genocide... I understand (my great-grandparents survived the genocide). But I think that what was done and what is happening now at the hands of so-called Muslims, is not really what Islam is about.

Edited by Sassun, 24 May 2007 - 04:00 PM.


#13 Sassun

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE(ALMA @ May 25 2007, 12:39 AM)  
La illahe alla, muhammade rasulla, bismillah ramone rahim something similar right?

I would never, I'm religious and proud Christian, but even if I weren’t I’d never become Muslim I believe Islam is pretty much of an evil religion.
There was a program on the TV, A Muslim guy was talking and he went on to say that he's Muslim if someone hits him, he'll kill the person, then he added- I'm not a Christian to turn my other chick I’ll just kill the person

ALMA
It's "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul Allah"

Someone who will be a Muslim, has to say the two "Shahada"s (i.e. bear witness)

the 1st:
Ash-hadu an La Ilaha Illa Allah (I bear witness that there is no God but one God)
the 2nd:
Ash-hadu an Muhammada Rasul Allah (I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God)

You'd actually be surprised how many things there are in common between Christianity and Islam. smile.gif

In fact, and not many know this, Muslims consider Jesus (Isa) to be a Prophet.

It's wrong to generalize about an entire religion and millions of people based on what one person or a few people (or any number that is unrepresentative of hundreds of millions of people) has said. Don't you think so?

So you would not consider a Muslim Armenian to be Armenian?

#14 Yervant1

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE(Sassun @ May 24 2007, 05:17 PM)  
Burkas?

Or you mean Hijab?

They're different things.

Hijab is obligatory but Burkas and Niqab not.

If I meant hijab I would have written hijab, wink.gif
As if believing in one man made religion is not enough, changing it to another one is even worse.

#15 AK-47

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:25 PM

QUOTE(Sassun @ May 24 2007, 05:17 PM)  
Burkas?

Or you mean Hijab?

They're different things.

Hijab is obligatory but Burkas and Niqab not.

Actually, i've heard that in true Islam (not the bastardized one Islamic states follow), the hijab is not necessary for a woman.

#16 AK-47

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 07:27 PM

I'd accept them seeing as they probably did not have much of a choice when they converted to Islam. But anyway, in my opinion, our sense of Armenianness should come first. And I guess down the line, we could de-Islamicize them if they wish to move to Armenia since the image of Armenian women walking in hijabs in the first state to adopt Christianity doesn't seem too pleasing to my eye lol.

#17 Sip

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 08:28 PM

If it's a man, I'll still consider them an Armenian. If it's a woman, I'll consider them 1/2 an Armenian according to Islamic rules. But in true Armenian style, I'll make fun of their stupidity and put them down either way, any chance that I get. biggrin.gif Of all the dumb ass things to do, why would anyone willingly convert to "Islam" beats me.

I mean I understand a guy converting to Islam to get it on with a girl but I will never understand the desparation level required for a woman to convert to Islam to marry an Islamic man. Other than marriage, I can't see any other reason why ANYONE would convert religion ... hmmm I guess surviving in prison is another good reason but that's not really "converting" ... that's pretending.

Edited by Sip, 24 May 2007 - 08:31 PM.


#18 Johannes

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 01:19 AM

smile.gif Այժմ տաճիկ ազգերը սկսած են ազգային (իրենց) անուններով կոչուիլ, բայց ընդհանրապէս արաբական անուններով կը կոչուին:
Եթէ շիի պիտ ըլլայ հայ մը .հասան հուսէնի եւ զայնաբի որդի իսմայէլեան
Իսկ եթէ սուննի պիտ ըլլայ .օմար ահմետի եւ այշայի որդի մոհամեդեան
Հաճելի՞ է Սասուն Տալւորիկի որդի Տուրուբերանեան:
Դուն Ալհայաթ կայանէն եգիպտացի վարդապետ Զաքարիա Պետրոսի յաղորդումերը կ'ունկնդրե՞ս: biggrin.gif


#19 Sassun

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 06:06 AM

QUOTE(AK-47 @ May 25 2007, 04:25 AM)  
Actually, i've heard that in true Islam (not the bastardized one Islamic states follow), the hijab is not necessary for a woman.

Actually, you are wrong. There are some "liberal" western-bred "clerics" that say this, and I think it is mostly due to the issue of accommodating the west.
Anyway, I know of no cleric in the Muslim world to have said that Hijab is not obligatory. The Qur'an is also very clear about this.... smile.gif

QUOTE
I'd accept them seeing as they probably did not have much of a choice when they converted to Islam.

I think you got me wrong. I am not talking about those who were forcefully converted or whatever. I am talking about someone who converts by choice. For example, an Armenian in Lebanon converting to Islam. But still feeling just as much Armenian as before..

#20 Sassun

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 06:10 AM

QUOTE(Sip @ May 25 2007, 05:28 AM)  
If it's a man, I'll still consider them an Armenian. If it's a woman, I'll consider them 1/2 an Armenian according to Islamic rules. But in true Armenian style, I'll make fun of their stupidity and put them down either way, any chance that I get. biggrin.gif Of all the dumb ass things to do, why would anyone willingly convert to "Islam" beats me.

I mean I understand a guy converting to Islam to get it on with a girl but I will never understand the desparation level required for a woman to convert to Islam to marry an Islamic man. Other than marriage, I can't see any other reason why ANYONE would convert religion ... hmmm I guess surviving in prison is another good reason but that's not really "converting" ... that's pretending.

Hi Sip
I understand if you do not think highly of religion and do not understand why anyone would convert, but there are people out there who are believers and do practice religion. Whether or not you think it's stupid is another matter. But there is nothing stupid about someone converting to Islam based on belief. Though I kind of feel offended that you think that someone converts to Islam merely to "get it on with a girl" or "to marry an Islamic man". In fact, neither is necessary in Islam, since a Muslim man may marry a non-Muslim (Jewish or Christian) woman and a non-Muslim woman can marry a Muslim man.





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