47 replies to this topic

[MosJan]

-=@=- moved topic and posts -=@=-

let me knwo if i have all of it or not than i can cleen the other topic.

[ March 12, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 05, 2002 11:22 AM
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Wh00t,

Yes, they did. But I don't think that Saroyan did.
There is a sickness within the Armenian community that drives so many of us out. Armenians are as guilty for the White Genocide as the Young Turks Ottomans were for the Red Genocide. My brother is now married to a Christian, so I do not know if he still practices Judaism.

Saroyan with all his smarts was very stupid on the home front. He once told his beautiful blond young wife that she was too beautiful to be a Jew. Not too smartA THING TO TELLL OUR WIFE
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[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 05, 2002 11:31 AM
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CONTINUATION OF LAST POST.

Last sentence of my previous post should read. "Not too smart a thing to tell your wife." Just think how Gregory Peck must have felt sitting at numerous dinners at the home of Carol and Walter Matthau when Carol would relate Willie's anti-Semitic remarks to her before and after they had made the love that brought their children to the world. No wonder he permanently buried the fact that his grandfather was a British-national Armenian Catholic.
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[MosJan]

THOTH
Member
Member # 369

posted March 05, 2002 12:18 PM
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Yes perhaps this was so....but if Saroyan was anything he was certainly flawed...(isn't it always the way with genius?)
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[MosJan]

THOTH
Member
Member # 369

posted March 05, 2002 03:49 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Azat:

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Originally posted by THOTH:

...

"In the time of your life, live--so that in that wondrous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world but shall smile at the infinite delight and mystery of it."

...

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Winston, Interesting that you wrote that about that quote. I thought making that my signature.
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I had the exact same though upon reading it here - I guess since you mentioned it first you get first dibs. It really is a wonderful thought and would make a most excellent sig (though if I used it I wonder if would it curtail me from flaming those deserving of such (in my eyes)? But which adds more to our collective misery: doing so (to the deserving) or refraining from such? I suppose if I'm berrating the naysayers and close minded types it'b OK.

And back to the quote...perhaps Saroyan was (secretly?) a Buddist or a Daoist...what'ya think?
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[MosJan]

Juggernaut
Member
Member # 351

posted March 05, 2002 04:00 PM
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quote:
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perhaps Saroyan was (secretly?) a Buddist or a Daoist...what'ya think?
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I am quite disturbed to see Armenians giving up their faith (Christianity), this is the ultimate betrayal, in my eyes. When I first started uni (2 years ago) I met with some (practicing) Muslims and became (and still are) good friends with them. Their friendship and the interesting conversations we had on religion sparked an interest in me, in Islam. At one point I was even considering conversion, but I realised that I would be carrying out the ultimate crime toward my peoples and their history, and my faith in Christianity and God has re-doubled because of this inspiration.

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Vive Deu, Saint Amour! - Templar Knight battle cry

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[MosJan]

THOTH
Member
Member # 369

posted March 05, 2002 04:14 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Juggernaut:

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perhaps Saroyan was (secretly?) a Buddist or a Daoist...what'ya think?
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I am quite disturbed to see Armenians giving up their faith (Christianity), this is the ultimate betrayal, in my eyes.
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Stuff it already - your just wrong. In fact you may have it backward. At one time Christianity was relevant to Armenians in every respect. It seems to me that the Church (and Christian belief) fail us now in many respect. Not that I think Christian values are completely bankrupt...but in and of themselves they are no longer sufficient - IMO. Additionally if an individual- such as myself lacks faith (and belief in the Bible as the divine word) - what would you have me do - fake it? Forces are at work that are changing us and our society very rapidly - forces of science and technology - how do you suggest we turn back the clock (you are suggesting that this is preferrable are you not?) Without doing so (eliminating technology) you cannot undo the forces that are changing us. So what is your practical solution? (aside from whining about it?) And the Armenian church (as most traditional churches) is unable (aparently to sufficiantly adapt)...thats the problem with dogma i guess...

quote:
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Originally posted by Juggernaut:
[QUOTE]At one point I was even considering conversion, but I realised that I would be carrying out the ultimate crime toward my peoples and their history, and my faith in Christianity and God has re-doubled because of this inspiration.
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Well good for you - if it works for you then fine. Your statement is not a universal truth however.
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[MosJan]

Juggernaut
Member
Member # 351

posted March 06, 2002 02:53 AM
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Stuff it already - your just wrong.
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You forgot to add 'IMO' at the end

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It seems to me that the Church (and Christian belief) fail us now in many respect.
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'It is in time of crisis that we must have faith', like many a times before in our bloody history........

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what would you have me do - fake it?
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No, dont have to fake it, but dont openly advocate other relligions/beliefs.

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how do you suggest we turn back the clock (you are suggesting that this is preferrable are you not?)
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There is no need to turn back the clock (though some technologies need to be banned eg. genetics), the Bible has the basic rules we must obey, and this can be easilly done in a 'modern world'.

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And the Armenian church (as most traditional churches) is unable (aparently to sufficiantly adapt)...thats the problem with dogma i guess...
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God does not adapt to you, YOU must adapt to Him.

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Vive Deu, Saint Amour! - Templar Knight battle cry

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Posts: 307 | From: Sydney, Oz | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

[MosJan]

THOTH
Member
Member # 369

posted March 06, 2002 07:49 AM
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NO - the statement was meant to be an absolute. You need to put IMO after every sentence you have presented in reply.

We no longer live in an insular world where all we know is our local village and its traditions - where we are unexposed to others who think differently and have beautiful, rich traditions of their own. If we are to survive as a species we must get away from the "this is what I believe and it is the absolute truth - everyone else has it wrong....and BTW they are blasphemous and must die" etc) And we must understand our myths, traditions and beliefs in the proper (allegorical and practical contexts..IMO).

You might be surprised that I share your uneasiness concerning the changes we are going through and how the unbridaled advances in science are driving cultural change that is both beyond our control and that is even difficult to predict. (and the resultant behavioral problems cause me a great deal of concern - as they do any "normal" people I imagine - though I beleive there is a big difference between just the changing way of certain things (including religion, family & relationships) and the more neurotic and pathological/aberrent etc behaviors that arise from the rapid change, and the inability to cope with such on both the societal and personal levels...and I realize that not all people are "nice" etc....).

And while I too yearn for the simpler times and ways, I don't think that it is possible to turn back the clock per se. We need to do better planning our course however - IMO.

And you must realize that the religions of man - and our myths and superstisions are not static - but change through the ages. We are now in a time of great change - much as with the rise of civilizations 4,000+ (or so) years ago when new religions began to spring up and again 2,000 years ago...well its been another 2,000 years (and my suspicion is that these periods will lessen. Have you ever wondered why it was "right" for people to beleive in nature gods, then adding gods of certain behaviors or reflecting other realities around them...then abandoning all that for mono-theistic religions (that were less tied to the land)...and now...what will be appropriate...(BTW I don't think Christianity or Islam etc will last [as the dominant cultural pace setters & such)...at least not without major adaptation...and I'm not sure it can handle it...

note to moderators, Jugs etc - we should maybe move the posts beginning with Jugs christianity comment into religion (I wouldn't want to take away from Saroyan....)
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[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 06, 2002 09:44 AM
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Juggernaut,

You know NOTHING about the beliefs of the Knights Templar, their pure beliefs in relation to God and the Saints. How DARE you use their battle cry to support your beliefs which are radically different than theirs. Theirs was a pure Christinaty based upon the original teachings of Christ. Yours support the mongrel religion developed by Emperor Constantine and enforeced by the Church hierarchies.
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[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 06, 2002 11:56 AM
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Juggernaut,

You want to ban the study of genetics? Are the studies which show that Armenians are part-Jew and part Mongol upseting you? Are you afraid that your myths will be disproved?
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[MosJan]

Twilight Bark
Member
Member # 555

posted March 06, 2002 01:17 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by hagarag:
Are the studies which show that Armenians are part-Jew and part Mongol upseting you?
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I would like to remind you that, by the same token, sephardic Jews are part-"Armenian". In fact, all Near Eastern people are part-each-other.
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[MosJan]

Juggernaut
Member
Member # 351

posted March 06, 2002 09:00 PM
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quote:
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You know NOTHING about the beliefs of the Knights Templar, their pure beliefs in relation to God and the Saints.
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And YOU DO? Well, I certainly will like to hear them, escpessially since no-one knows what exactly their beliefs and practices were, you must either have a time machine of some sorts, or be a freemason in which case you believe that the Tamplar Knights were your predecesors (which they were NOT).

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How DARE you use their battle cry to support your beliefs which are radically different than theirs.
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Read above. And as far as I am concearned they were Christians and devoted their lives to protecting Christians and serving God, that is reason enough for me to use their battle cry.

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Theirs was a pure Christinaty based upon the original teachings of Christ.
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As I said there is no proof of this, only myths...
And I suspect the teachings of Christ are in the Bible, not in the Kabala

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Yours support the mongrel religion developed by Emperor Constantine and enforeced by the Church hierarchies.
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And what may your religion be? Judaism?

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You want to ban the study of genetics?
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Not for historic studies, but for modifying foods, animals and soon HUMANS!

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Vive Deu, Saint Amour! - Templar Knight battle cry

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[MosJan]

Kazza
Member
Member # 106

posted March 07, 2002 07:37 AM
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Yeah I agree, why don't we talk more about his works rather than who he married (sorry!) and about religion and genocide. What if he married a green alien?? :razz: besides, that first wife lied to him. She said she was an armenian then confessed she was jewish after the marriage and children. He left her because of the lie then went back to her. Can you imagine such deceit?

And that picture of him in 1941! Oh mama! I wish I were born 80 years earlier..

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Armos are beautiful
Yes Em hayes
Yes em hayes
keep it real and armenian

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[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 07, 2002 10:31 AM
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Kazza,

You are DREAMING with your story about Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau. Also, FYI Wille was married twice and both times to this same woman.
Wille married a blond New York socialite by the name of Carol Marcus. Give me a break, do you know any MARCUSIANS! My Mom knew these people. There was NO WAY that Willie would think they were HYES. Have you been smoking that hashish lately, or is it too much sex?
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[MosJan]

Kazza
Member
Member # 106

posted March 07, 2002 10:59 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by hagarag:
Kazza,

You are DREAMING with your story about Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau.

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It's true.

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Also, FYI Wille was married twice and both times to this same woman.
Wille married a blond New York socialite by the name of Carol Marcus. Give me a break, do you know any MARCUSIANS! My Mom knew these people. There was NO WAY that Willie would think they were HYES. Have you been smoking that hashish lately, or is it too much sex?
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Yes... to Carol Marcus Saroyan Matthau. I think he didn't know. He found out then went back to her.

What do you think is this unique difference between Hyes and Marcusians that Willie would not tell the difference between them? Everybody can make a simple mistake you know!

1) No, hashish latley, I'm far too poor I don't work anymore only study.

2) I've been celibate for two years.

Out of interest are you Hye yourself?

[ March 07, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Kazza ]

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Armos are beautiful
Yes Em hayes
Yes em hayes
keep it real and armenian

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[MosJan]

Kazza
Member
Member # 106

posted March 07, 2002 11:10 AM
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Are these Marcusians?

marcusians

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Armos are beautiful
Yes Em hayes
Yes em hayes
keep it real and armenian

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[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 07, 2002 11:11 AM
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Yes Kazza, I am HYE, well almost 100% HYE, and as disgusted with the Arturs and Tigrannes IIIs as you are.

As for Willie, how could you date a woman, mingle with her family and friends and not know that she was a Jew? Are you saying that Willie was a dummy?

My Mom saw these people on a weekly basis. Willie was a 30-something male whose thinking was being controlled by his "brain" below his belt. Carol was exceptionally beautiful and 18. So this Armenian icon was head over heels in love. Do you think that he really cared about her ethnic or religious background? Besides, even if he didn't realize that she was Jewish the first time around, he only married once more and to this same woman. The "he didn't know" myth is being circulated by certain arch-conservative vindictive Armenian traditionalists.
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[MosJan]

Kazza
Member
Member # 106

posted March 07, 2002 11:32 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by hagarag:
Yes Kazza, I am HYE, well almost 100% HYE, and as disgusted with the Arturs and Tigrannes IIIs as you are.

As for Willie, how could you date a woman, mingle with her family and friends and not know that she was a Jew? Are you saying that Willie was a dummy?

My Mom saw these people on a weekly basis. Willie was a 30-something male whose thinking was being controlled by his "brain" below his belt. Carol was exceptionally beautiful and 18. So this Armenian icon was head over heels in love. Do you think that he really cared about her ethnic or religious background? Besides, even if he didn't realize that she was Jewish the first time around, he only married once more and to this same woman. The "he didn't know" myth is being circulated by certain arch-conservative vindictive Armenian traditionalists.
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Oh thank you Hagarag! (What does Hagarag mean in english? Is in armenian? Is that your real name? Just out of interest. It is idiotic of A and T isn't it. They don't realise you can be a good armenian without the heavy traditionalism. Well I hope his thinking was like that, it's normal. Though I wouldn't think it was CONTROLLED like that, he was a great man with his mind on other things too (My perfect man!) *sigh* but enough of that.

William Saroyan was certianly not a dummy. He was one of the greatest geniouses the world has known. But geniuses can have their weak and vulnerable areas that make up for it.

Well it makes sence it would be circulated by Armenian traditionalists. They didn't want people to think one of their own would happily marry odar. Or mabye Willie and the Beauty threw that story at the in the beginning to throw them off in the first place! He was an icon in the armenian community and that might put him in disfavour among their stict ideals, jeopordising his growing career. That would be silly, and she would be young/impressionable to go along with it.

Admittedly I don't really know the full story, but these are just ideas. You wouldn't find the real story off off the Internet. It doesn't matter anyway. Was she intelligent though?

Who knows now. But if he saw me he'd fancy me more!

Anyway, take the time to research some of his stories!

I must delete that horrible signature

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Armos are beautiful
Yes Em hayes
Yes em hayes
keep it real and armenian

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[MosJan]

hagarag
Member
Member # 494

posted March 07, 2002 11:57 AM
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Kazza,

"Hagarag" means "against the grain" in Armenian. It is what my parents would call me. My original handle was Khodja, the title of my great-grandfather, but that name elicited a lot of hostility from certan Armenians here. I guess that if you have business dealings with Turks and become extremely wealthy, then you are considered a sellout.

Do not let these traditionalist bozos disturb your mind. Live your life as you see fit. I passed up marriage with all the loves of my life to marry an Armenian from an arch-conservative Armenian family. I did not find happiness. Life is too short to listen to the Arturs and Tigrannes III's of this world.
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