13 replies to this topic

[ThornyRose]

I did some traveling in the province of Artvin. Here are the names of some villages I noticed. The former happen to be the official Turkish names. The latter are the names that were noted in parentheses on the labels, right below the official names.

Tosunlu - Usot
Müezzinler - Meçegil (Mechegil).
Bulanýk - Yengetðev (Yengetghev).
Karlý - Diyagarmuç (Diyagarmuch).

These ought to be Armenian names. I was wondering if they have any meaning... Anyone help me out?

[Harut]

as far as i can tell, they don't mean anything in Armenian.
acctually, i could say for sure that they are not Armenian words.
because they don't sound Armenian a bit.

[ThornyRose]

They don't?
Let's try Georgian and Russian, then.
No... I was told by the few people I talked to when there that there had been Armenians there once upon a time...
The names might disappoint, though... No objections to that.

[MJ]

I think at least the first one and the last one sound Armenian.

[ThornyRose]

I was expecting the third one to sound Armenian, too... Just my humble opinion...

[MJ]

It is still possible. Armenian language has gone through significant evolution. It may mean something that we today have no knowledge of.

[ThornyRose]

Do Armenian place names have meanings? Or are they just, shall we say, abstract? Or can they be both?
Turkish place and persons' names almost always have meanings...

[MJ]

Normally they would - both the places and the names. You can safely say that a name is Armenian if it means something in Armenian. However, being adapted centuries ago, a lot of names are considered to be Armenian when they clearly are not. One can easily trace many of them all the way to the Bible. Or, for example, many would take the name Kirakos as an Armenian name, when clearly, it is an adaptation from Greek. There are many such instances. A lot of names that we consider to be Armenian, and they are quite popular even in our days, are of Persian origin.

[bellthecat]

The first and last do sound like place names I have come across elsewhere in "Turkish Armenia". For example, there was a Garmuch near Ahlat, on lake Van - and dir (diya) often means monastery. Names ending in v (as in "ev" or "ov" or "off") are often Russian in origin, and are from the end of the 19th century.

But just becasue Armenians lived in a place does not mean that place had to have an Armenain name - many place names date further back than that, into Urartian times or beyond. Which makes the removal of these names all the worse - to have survived thousands of years only to be obliterated by some fascistic pen pushing bureaucrat.

Steve

[MJ]

There is a possibility of some deformation of these names, among other things. With some effort the name “Mechegil” may be interpreted as “Mechegiugh,” which would mean “The Middle of Village.” Such village names with slight alterations could be found in the Republic of Armenia – “Giughamech.” The “gev” in “Yengetghev” may also be a variation of “Giugh” – village. “Garmuch” sounds to me as “dialectization” of “gamurch,” which means bridge in Armenian. “Usot” can go for “With Shoulder.”

[ThornyRose]

Interesting - "Ortaköy" which means the same thing is also very common in Turkish.



I agree... I also wonder why these names were provided in parantheses - they hit their heads somewhere or what? (((:

[Harut]

i'm sorry people.
but still i can't see Armenian in there.
only first one means, like MJ mentioned, "with shoulder", but i don't think that's the case here. maybe i'm wrong. i don't know.

MJ, you might be right. there could have been modified in some way.
even if there are Armenian, they are in very heavy accent (Turkish probably).

btw, both of my grand-fathers were from Garmuch (Karmuch).
i'll write about its meaning shortly, after i ask couple of my relatives.

Steve, you said many villeges date back to Urartian times. but i don't think their names would have survived that long.
they would have been changed until 19-20 centuries.

[ThornyRose]

Turkish accent? Turkish itself is accent-LESS!
Just kidding - it does make a difference. I often joke myself about how Turks pronounce certain things... Reading English out loud without stretching all the vowels, substituting some vowels for others, etc... That said... Boghosinho, are you out there? Read this:
The can me but the, see can me war.
And use a little [sick] imagination. ((((:
LOVL!

[bellthecat]

The lake Van Karmuch? There is a short description of it in Lynch's Armenia.

There are plenty of place names around lake Van that are thought to have Urartian origins. I have wondered about the rough sounding name of a village near Tatvan (even the uncouth Kurds don't like pronouncing it!), it is called Tug, pronounced Tu'ch. (ch as in the Scottish loch). Is it Armenian or older? It is a very ancient place, with the oldest church in Lake van, and one of the oldest Armenian churches anywhere.

Steve