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#61 gamavor

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:59 AM

Here Mosjan, just read between the lines


Referring to their obligation under the Charter of the United Nations, the Helsinki Final Act, the Charter of Paris for a New Europe, Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers

Sure! Which Frontiers? Sevres? Lozana? Kars? Moscow? Which one of the agreements is valid? And which one is the existing border? The one that is wired?

Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law, Emphasizing their decision to open the common border.Supporting the promotion of the cooperation between the two countries in the international and regional organizations, especially within the framework of the UN, the OSCE, the Council of Europe, the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council and the BSEC,

This paragraph seals the fate of Western Armenia, is it not?



implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;

Dialog about what? The "incidents" of 1915? The "incidents" of 1896? The "incidents" of 1908? Whose history and what dimensions? Impartial scientific examination of historical records of WHAT? What Problems?

cooperate in the fields of science and education by encouraging relations between the appropriate institutions as well as promoting the exchange of specialists and students, and act with the aim of preserving the cultural heritage of both sides and launching common cultural projects;


Could they name even one piece of turkish cultural heritage on Armenian soil that has not been preserved?

Supporting the promotion of the cooperation between the two countries in the international and regional organizations, especially within the framework of the UN, the OSCE, the Council of Europe, the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council and the BSEC,

This is fine exept that Turkey has the upper hand in all these Organizations.






#62 MosJan

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 11:06 AM

"ches hamuzi... yes im prezidentin em havatum !!!


Serj !! Araj HAyastan !!! TSovits TSov HAyastan "

hin xosq ka asuam minchev ch@kortsnes ches gtnelu, kam estegh teghatsy americatsiner@ kasen - you need to gave some to get some .....

#63 Z'areh

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Oct 7 2009, 02:36 AM)
"inchu en aghavaghum mejtegh gtsum iunch ases , urishin mi lseq, estegh hogheri masin ban chi grats, HAykakan HArtsi het kapvats voch mi hakasogh vnasogh ban chem tesnum yes,"

te sxal em aseq yes el imanam


Mosjan, Ourish@ ov eh?

Ayo! Yes ge gardsem menk isgabes urishin ch'bedk e lsenk yev ch'khpvink te aiys protocole mes hamar lav é.

Mosjan, believe in what you want, but as far as I am (and the overwhelming majority of Armenians who want to think for themselves ) concerned, these protocols being anti-Armenian, and being forced down our throats, is as clear as the Sun shining on a clear day. Perhaps the difference between you and me is that I have long removed my sun glasses, especially the ones that make people see old Soviet style visions.

with all due respect!

#64 Yervant1

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 01:13 PM

The overwhelming majority of Armenians never thought for themselves and never will, they are led on a leash by interest groups (Parties) who are afraid of becoming irrelevant after Armenia and Turkey makes peace.

#65 Arpa

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 01:47 PM

Movses, chgitem the du lourj es khosum the tsitsagh. Khndrem krkin karda yew tes the “territorial integrity” , ima @ndounel ayzhmu tourqakan sahmanner@ , yew soveto-turkakan azerbokhjani sahmanner@?
Yev “historical commission” inch nshanaki., ima , the “kenotsid “ patahel e kam voch?. Menq pazmitz@s asel enq or “kenotsid”@ ardzangrouel e Hay yev otar patmagirneri vkayoutiamb, yev the veji araka che, bayts erb nranq asen the sa piti ousanoui , inch nshanaki? Yerb mi hzor petoutiun @ zinowadz tntanotnerov hartsaki anzen yev anpashtman, ayr, kin yev yerekha geghatsoun vera. Inch e nra anvanouvm@? (yerkoustek ) “tragedy/incident/mi patahar/մի ողբերգական (tragic) պատահար”? The Hayer@ 6 million turk yev musulman en spannel? One can only wish!!!!

Edited by Arpa, 07 October 2009 - 04:44 PM.


#66 Hellektor

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Oct 7 2009, 01:36 AM)
"inchu en aghavaghum mejtegh gtsum iunch ases , urishin mi lseq, estegh hogheri masin ban chi grats, HAykakan HArtsi het kapvats voch mi hakasogh vnasogh ban chem tesnum yes,"

te sxal em aseq yes el imanam

Are you for real or are you being sarcastic? I can't believe you say this!

Hyrenagits, what do you understand under this (I repeat):

"Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by relevant treaties of international law"

This means, Serj throws the entire Հայ Դատ in the garbage can of history. I don't care about the rest of the protocol and I have explained why in this thread.


Էլ ի՞նչ Հայ Դատ:

Please explain to me what you understand under the above point in the protocols.


Թէ սխա՞լ եմ ասա ես էլ իմանամ:

#67 Z'areh

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 02:06 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Oct 7 2009, 01:13 PM)
The overwhelming majority of Armenians never thought for themselves and never will, they are led on a leash by interest groups (Parties) who are afraid of becoming irrelevant after Armenia and Turkey makes peace.


No Yervant, I think the overwhelming majority of Armenians believe that the three traditional parties coming together and clearly saying "no" to these protocols is the most healthy and REAL (shidag) think to do. It is an old and worn out propaganda that people repeat about what you call "parties fearing irrelevance from a Turkish-Armenian rapprochement. and "leashing the public", don't take the public for a fool. Only those who do not grasp the true nature of grass roots organizations would think such a thing, and apparently AAA is one of them.

You say Armenia and Turkey will make peace. Of course Turkey will make peace with Armenia, on its own term, everybody knew that from the start. You give up your rights, and I'll make peace with you. Heck tomorrow Israel and Palestine can make such a peace too.

If we believe that Turkey illegally closed the borders with Armenia then the protocols should have said clearly "Turkey will unconditionally open the borders with Armenia". PERIOD. What did Armenia do to Turkey (In international legal perspective) for her to be forced to compromise on three main issue (yes Three, genocide, border and Artsakh,--read the "Terrorism" bit--) and get nothing back in putting down on paper about Turkey unconditionally opening the borders?

What is there not to understand?

Do you forget that Azerbaijan was seeking international legal support to deal with Artsakh as a terrorism issue, thus having the right to defend herself? And what about the "good neighbourly relationship" in these protocols, Really? and what if the insistence of Genocide on Armenia's part is regarded by Turkey as being not-so-good a neighbourly thing to do. At least if Armenia had succeeded in including the affirmation of people's right to self-determination, then it would have balanced things out. Since there is no such inclusion this means a major defeat in Armenia's diplomacy.

What is there not to understand?

There is nothing in these protocols that one can point out and say....THIS is good for Armenia. If there is please point it to me.








#68 Hellektor

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Oct 7 2009, 11:06 AM)
"ches hamuzi... yes im prezidentin em havatum !!!


Serj !! Araj HAyastan !!! TSovits TSov HAyastan "

hin xosq ka asuam minchev ch@kortsnes ches gtnelu, kam estegh teghatsy americatsiner@ kasen - you need to gave some to get some .....

To get what? Why is it always us who has to give? Turkey has imposed a blockade on Armenia since 1993 against all norms and its responsibilities vis-à-vis the EU and the Eurofag Council of which it's a member. They HAVE TO open the border if they want to invade the Eurofag Union. This blockade, which is indeed an act of war, is against even the goddamn illegal treaty of Kars, the confirmation of which the Turk and their Judeo-Saxon buddies are illegally demanding from Armenia with these same protocols.

Why do WE have to give everything, while they have already stolen 90% of our homeland through Genocide after nine centuries of use and abuse, have destroyed our nation, have destroyed our civilization, have even destroyed our monuments and cemeteries after they have destroyed us physically?

We have NOTHING to give the genocidal Turk vermin, yet we have EVERYTHING to take from the murderous savages, yet “our” scumbag of a president is blessing the fruit of the Genocide to pave the way for Turkey to invade EU and earn credit. Why do WE have to offer this great service to the butchers of our nation? Te sxal em asa yes el imanam.

P.S. And who says Turkey will open the borders even after Serj signs the protocols? The wolves have howled on countless occasions (on almost daily basis) that they won’t start relations unless Armenia cedes the liberated territories to the genocidal parasites, and this is exactly what the whole charade is all about: they don’t want relations, they want TERRITORY.

P.S. II:

...Կարսի պայմանագրի մասին Ա. Մարուքեանն ասաց, որ անգամ կարող ենք պահանջներ ներկայացնել, քանի որ Թուրքիան այդ պայմանագիրը խախտել է՝ շրջափակելով Հայաստանը:

Նշենք, որ ըստ Կարսի պայմանագրի՝ Թուրքիայի եւ Հայաստանի միջեւ պէտք է մարդկանց եւ ապրանքների անխափան տեղաշարժ լինէր: Ա. Մարուքեանն առաջարկեց միջազգայնօրէն չեղեալ յայտարարել Կարսի պայմանագիրը, քանի որ այն խախտւել է հէնց Թուրքիայի կողմից:


Source, Alik online edition, citing aysor.am



#69 MosJan

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 02:43 PM

QUOTE (Z'areh @ Oct 7 2009, 11:47 AM)
Mosjan, Ourish@ ov eh?

Ayo! Yes ge gardsem menk isgabes urishin ch'bedk e lsenk yev ch'khpvink te aiys protocole mes hamar lav é.

Mosjan, believe in what you want, but as far as I am (and the overwhelming majority of Armenians who want to think for themselves ) concerned, these protocols being anti-Armenian, and being forced down our throats, is as clear as the Sun shining on a clear day. Perhaps the difference between you and me is that I have long removed my sun glasses, especially the ones that make people see old Soviet style visions.

with all due respect!



che barekam jan smile.gif yes vochinch Halats Yughi tegh chem @endunel im kyanqum, indz jaachoghner@ lav giten vor shat kaskatsamit yev djvar havatatsogh em smile.gif


Zareh jan yerb mer sireli robert & Serj CO.'n vajarum er HAyastani Atomakayan@, GAzamughi zgali mas@, yerkatgits@, Cell phone system@, Heraxosi tsants@.. toqeris mej vorqan uj kar bravum eyi te sa inch e katarvum ?? inchu en tsaxum vagh@ inch en anelu yete pasti araj kangnen... inchu yes spyurqahays chem karrogh gnel iyn nuyn@ inch russ@ karrogh e ?? cheyin vstahum mez ?? de inch barekam yekav yev iyd jamanak@ yev robert & Serj Co. pasti araj e kangnats, irents vstaheli sireli rus axperneri dem, stipvats e katarel inch rus@ yev muysnern en asum...

yete sa protocol kochvats@ terutyuner chunenar serj@ ashxarhqov mek man cher galu yev hamuzer bolorin.... antheri che sakayn karrogh er aveli vat linel...

#70 MosJan

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:01 PM

"vayyy iy dzer tsav@ tanem smile.gif serj@ vonts k@lini sxal lini smile.gif na yerbeq sxal chi yeghel chi el linelu smile.gif"



#71 MosJan

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Z'areh @ Oct 7 2009, 01:06 PM)
No Yervant, I think the overwhelming majority of Armenians believe that the three traditional parties coming together and clearly saying "no" to these protocols is the most healthy and REAL (shidag) think to do. It is an old and worn out propaganda that people repeat about what you call "parties fearing irrelevance from a Turkish-Armenian rapprochement. and "leashing the public", don't take the public for a fool. Only those who do not grasp the true nature of grass roots organizations would think such a thing, and apparently AAA is one of them.

You say Armenia and Turkey will make peace. Of course Turkey will make peace with Armenia, on its own term, everybody knew that from the start. You give up your rights, and I'll make peace with you. Heck tomorrow Israel and Palestine can make such a peace too.

If we believe that Turkey illegally closed the borders with Armenia then the protocols should have said clearly "Turkey will unconditionally open the borders with Armenia". PERIOD. What did Armenia do to Turkey (In international legal perspective) for her to be forced to compromise on three main issue (yes Three, genocide, border and Artsakh,--read the "Terrorism" bit--) and get nothing back in putting down on paper about Turkey unconditionally opening the borders?

What is there not to understand?

Do you forget that Azerbaijan was seeking international legal support to deal with Artsakh as a terrorism issue, thus having the right to defend herself? And what about the "good neighbourly relationship" in these protocols, Really? and what if the insistence of Genocide on Armenia's part is regarded by Turkey as being not-so-good a neighbourly thing to do. At least if Armenia had succeeded in including the affirmation of people's right to self-determination, then it would have balanced things out. Since there is no such inclusion this means a major defeat in Armenia's diplomacy.

What is there not to understand?

There is nothing in these protocols that one can point out and say....THIS is good for Armenia. If there is please point it to me.



BArekam jan smile.gif menq el da shat lav enq haskanum, sakayn nerkayis karravarutyun@ urish jar chuni, qanzi verjin 8~10 tarin zbaghvats en yeghel irents grp[anner@ ltsnelov, yerkri karevoraguyn structuiraner@ vajarelov.. kerel en yerkir@ menak anunn e mnatsel yev hogh@, chem zarmana yete hanrapetutyan Hogh@ nuynpes Grav drats ch@linen mi yevorpakan banki mot.... chunen urish qayl sa e !! et mard@ iravunq chuner prezident linelu, na nuynisk chi karroghanum sovorakan mi hartsi patasxanel minjev tuxti grats@ 5 angam ch@karda,,, hartsazrutsner@ nayel eq ?? mi hat el nayek, bazmativ hartseri patasxanner na kardum e....

#72 Hellektor

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 03:33 PM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Oct 7 2009, 12:06 PM)
Serj !! Araj HAyastan !!! TSovits TSov HAyastan "

Էս մէկը մոռացայ: Եթէ այս փաստաթուղթը ստորագրւի, առաջին անգամ անկախ Հայաստանը վաւերացնում է Կարսի ապօրինի պայմանագիրը: Արցախն էլ հօ տալիս ենք, մնալու է միայն աղջկայ գլուխը: Էլ ի՞նչ ծովից ծով Հայաստանի մասին ես խօսում:

Միթէ Թուրքիան ու Ադրբեջանը գնան ջրի տակ, որ դա էլ ափսոս կը լինի որովհետև Մասիսն ու մեր մնացած կիսաւեր յուշարձաններն էլ կը խորտակւեն:


I knew you were only being sarcastic Mos. Off topic; the savages got their ugly, bloody flag reflected on the Eiffel. Those lowly, sellout Eurofags...


#73 Yervant1

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:31 PM

QUOTE (Z'areh @ Oct 7 2009, 04:06 PM)
You say Armenia and Turkey will make peace. Of course Turkey will make peace with Armenia, on its own term, everybody knew that from the start. You give up your rights, and I'll make peace with you. Heck tomorrow Israel and Palestine can make such a peace too.

If and when we as a nation and country become more powerful than them, then we can dictate our own term. How many treaties and agreements have been cancelled and voided between countries? Too many to count, therefore if we want our rights respected we need to have the stick not the carrot.
I did read the protocols and I know it's not the greatest peice of documents, but until we become a force to wrecken with what choice do we have? Once the border is open, if it ever opens we can tell Georgia to go to hell and liberate Javakh where Armenians are suffering. Right now getting Western Armenia will give us 15 million Kurds, and 15 million headaches.

I don't need to remind you that the victorious (stronger) side decides the outcome of agreements. We have too many enemies and no friends, basically every major country is selling us out for their interests and we are too weak to confront them. So at the cost of repeating myself our salvation is in our strenght.

#74 MosJan

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:37 PM

ehh barekam jan
TSvots Tsov HAyastan er hima dartsav Tsovits TSov HAyer, vor tsoum nayes HAyer kan... de sa el mer baxtitsa, mer xelqits, vortev @entreluts Shaqar yev asfalti hamar enq @entrum, LAv tegherqi xosqi hamar enq @entrum, chinovnikneri & olegarxneri enq @entrum... @entrum enq qani or dzerqa talis iyd varkyanin, iyd varkyanov enq aprum, amenashat@ iyd orva hamar, voch mek vaghva orva masin chi mtatsum.. ov el mtatsuma hayhoyum, parsavanum, davajani yev xhuligani pitak@ vran en paktsnum, pateri tak shanSatak anum, opr el ch@mtatsy. or el risk chani xosi kam poghits durs ga ir kartsiq@ tekuz yev sh@shukov asi...


#75 Z'areh

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 07:43 PM

As I see it we have few choices...actually only two

1-Collapse on our own defeatist feelings...prescribe our own inaptitudes on "outside forces", "having no friends" etc..

or


2-Remember Njteh, who looked at the orders from Yerevan, asking him to stop military activities and retreat, and said "f@ck you" and went on liberating Zangezur.



If anything those were much more desperate days than now.

What happened this time? Let us not forget the following: Serje Sarkisian stole the presidency and wants to keep it at all costs.

PERIOD!

Anything else is goddamn noise.










#76 Yervant1

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 09:35 PM

You call it defeatist, and I'll call it reality check. Big words and empty rhetoric will get us nowhere, see you at the Turkish border. wink.gif

#77 Z'areh

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Oct 7 2009, 10:35 PM)
You call it defeatist, and I'll call it reality check. Big words and empty rhetoric will get us nowhere, see you at the Turkish border. wink.gif


I know Yervant jan, big rhetoric and empty words are not good for biznis. Go to the Turkish border quickly you might loose your spot wink.gif


#78 MosJan

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 12:28 AM

Blaise Pascal:

Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical.

#79 Yervant1

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (Z'areh @ Oct 8 2009, 12:15 AM)
I know Yervant jan, big rhetoric and empty words are not good for biznis. Go to the Turkish border quickly you might loose your spot wink.gif

You see we agreed on something!!!!! I'll save you a spot, don't you worry. smile.gif

#80 Yervant1

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:43 AM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Oct 8 2009, 02:28 AM)
Blaise Pascal:

Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical.

So true!!!!!!

We need to develop a big stick in order to have justice. smile.gif




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