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Why Are There Armenian Protestants?


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#201 Arad9

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE (onnig @ Jan 10 2008, 11:02 PM)
You are evading the text and bringing up Luther and Calvin. You actually think Luther and Calvin believed the same way the AAC and Rome believes the badarak/mass to be? Luther's position has been controversial. Luther believed in a real presence but not transubstantiation, the bread and wine do not change, and he surely did not believe it to be a sacrifice to atone for sin. He did not hold to the mass as Rome and the AAC does, as a sacrifice of the real presence of Christ. Calvin most assuredly did not believe this. Just read his Institutes and you'll see. But in any case, neither Luther, nor Calvin, nor Chrysostom, nor Augustine or any other saint have authority to dictate doctrine. We read the interpretations they have and follow their line of thinking and see for ourselves, THROUGH SCRIPTURE ALONE BECAUSE SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE, if what they are saying is consistent with God's Word.

I can show you many sources how many saints in history did not believe in transubstantiation and a sacrifice to atone for sin at the mass.


I'm pointing out The Armenian church does not sacrifice Christ but only receive his sacrifice. You are trying to mislead people by saying Armenians sacrifice Jesus at mass.
Luther and Calvin certainly don't believe like you in regard to mass.
There is no Church that believed like you.
You didn’t come to the understanding of the bible on your own you were taught what you believe.
Do you sacrifice Christ spiritually? Since you are taking communion spiritually over and over?
QUOTE
I am not going to answer any of your rediculous claims about me. This is obviously not true and I've explained myself to you many times at the unshakable forums. I'm glad you posted on the forums at armeniansforchrist.com. I only hope you are looking for an answer instead of trying to always give one.

You don't want to answer because you know the way The Church decided rejecting the diety of Christ is a heresy is by The Church coming together and declaring it, the way they declared Pelagius a heretic by The Church coming together and declaring it.

To everyone reading this taking communion is very powerful. Here is what Jesus said about what the communion is and this is what our Church believes.
John 6: 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

You can decide next time you go to church to pray the Der Voghormia and receive Christ body and blood or you could desert Jesus just as many did at that time and still do today.


#202 Ashot

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 05:41 PM

QUOTE (Arad9 @ Jan 11 2008, 03:20 PM)
To everyone reading this taking communion is very powerful. Here is what Jesus said about what the communion is and this is what our Church believes.
John 6: 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

You can decide next time you go to church to pray the Der Voghormia and receive Christ body and blood or you could desert Jesus just as many did at that time and still do today.


Ok Arad, how about you do an interpretation of the john6: 53 - 60... word by word I want you to explain to me what he ment... then well have someone esle do the same, and another one, and anothr one... let's see how many of them match, how many of them say the same exact thing... the idea will be the same but the meanings might be different...
so let me stop you here and tell you this, beleive what you want to beleive - personally I don't beleive any of the thins that you said in here, because you have not put your own tought into it, all you do is repeat the stuff others say eigther priests or interpreters... no matter what, how about you take the book read it line by line, and do a self interpretation - understand the bible the way you can not the way someone else tells you... and yet after you understand it the way you do, please do not convince others that your interpretation is the ideal one, and you are the only one who cracked it wide open...
For someone as smart as you, I am sure you will be able to read and understand it the way you want it to understand...
Every bible written says the same thing, it's the people that read and understand it differently... So please, you are arguing against all of us in a senseless way, you have nothing to add to the topic now you are hanging from the words said in here, go back read about the mass that onigg said and then criticise it, because from reading your response I can clearly see that you didn't undersatnd what he wrote, nor you wanted to understand it, because you have your belief and you do not want to accept what others have to say, in regards to being the misleader for the Armenians, please man - look in the mirror...

#203 Arad9

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Jan 11 2008, 05:41 PM)
Ok Arad, how about you do an interpretation of the john6: 53 - 60... word by word I want you to explain to me what he ment... then well have someone esle do the same, and another one, and anothr one... let's see how many of them match, how many of them say the same exact thing... the idea will be the same but the meanings might be different...
so let me stop you here and tell you this, beleive what you want to beleive - personally I don't beleive any of the thins that you said in here, because you have not put your own tought into it, all you do is repeat the stuff others say eigther priests or interpreters... no matter what, how about you take the book read it line by line, and do a self interpretation - understand the bible the way you can not the way someone else tells you... and yet after you understand it the way you do, please do not convince others that your interpretation is the ideal one, and you are the only one who cracked it wide open...
For someone as smart as you, I am sure you will be able to read and understand it the way you want it to understand...
Every bible written says the same thing, it's the people that read and understand it differently... So please, you are arguing against all of us in a senseless way, you have nothing to add to the topic now you are hanging from the words said in here, go back read about the mass that onigg said and then criticise it, because from reading your response I can clearly see that you didn't undersatnd what he wrote, nor you wanted to understand it, because you have your belief and you do not want to accept what others have to say, in regards to being the misleader for the Armenians, please man - look in the mirror...

Ashot maybe you can read what Onnig said about mass and tell me if he claims The Armenian Church sacrifice Christ at mass? Then tell me does The Armenian Church teach that?

#204 Ashot

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 10:41 PM

again what he said, I understood it differently then you, our understanding is different, we can't sit in here and argue with one another, what's your purpose of life? to fight for whose right whose wrong? isn't there anything more important then that?

#205 onnig

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Jan 11 2008, 08:41 PM)
again what he said, I understood it differently then you, our understanding is different, we can't sit in here and argue with one another, what's your purpose of life? to fight for whose right whose wrong? isn't there anything more important then that?


This is not about who is right and who is wrong Ashot. This has to do with the very gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. If the AAC (Armenian Apostolic Church) believes that communion is a sacrificial communion to take away sin, to apease God and expiate transgression, this goes in the face of orthodox (small o) Chrisitanity. This is a works righteousness along with other sacraments they distort like baptism. This damns people to hell. It's more than being right or wrong, it's proclaiming the truth of the good new, the "avedis", the "avedaran".

Eph 6:12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."

Here is more evidence that the AAC believes that the communion is a sacrifice:

By Archbishop Shnork Kaloustian, 1969, Saints and Sacraments:

Pgs 39-40:

"I. NAMES GIVEN TO HOLY COMMUNION:
It has several names according to its various aspects and meanings. It is called: a) Eucharist,
which means Blessing or Thanksgiving, and describes its Sacramental aspect. b ) The Lord’s Supper, referring to the occasion on which it was established. c) Communion, because of the action and its results, inasmuch as we communicate with our Lord Himself in this sacrament. d) Sacrifice, which refers to the immolation of our Lord on the Cross, where He shed His Blood, as a victim, for the salvation of mankind. The last two terms are the most common nomenclature used in Armenian. “Holy Sacrifice” or “Sourp Badarak” is the term we use to describe the ritual of Holy Communion."

Pg 40:

"Holy Communion is not only a Sacrament but also a Sacrifice. “As Sacrifice, it is the continuation of the sacrifice of Golgotha.” The very words used by our Lord clearly show this: “My Body given . . ., or broken for you,” “My Blood shed . . . for many for the remission of sins.” “These expressions indicate that this Institution is itself a propitiatory sacrifice.” It is not simply a representation of the death of our Lord, but actual and real sacrifice, in which “The Offerer and the Victim are one and the same, our Lord, even if the sacrifice be offered by the priest.” It is not simply a reminder or commemoration of the historical fact of Golgotha, but an actual and objective sacrifice. The purpose of the sacrifice on the Cross was the reconciliation of man with God, the atonement for the sins of man and their expiation, in general. Whereas the Sacrifice of the Eucharist is offered for specific people, it is the application of the general benefits of the sacrifice of the Cross, to those for whom the Eucharist is celebrated, both for the living and the dead."

Now Arad is going to turn around and say, ok its a sacrifice, so, its not a crucifixion. That agani is not true. A perpetual sacrifice that the Badarak is, perpetuates the first sacrifice which is a crucifixion. There is more dialogue here:

http://www.armenians.......ewtopic&t=7

#206 Arad9

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (onnig @ Jan 19 2008, 09:18 PM)
This is not about who is right and who is wrong Ashot. This has to do with the very gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. If the AAC (Armenian Apostolic Church) believes that communion is a sacrificial communion to take away sin, to apease God and expiate transgression, this goes in the face of orthodox (small o) Chrisitanity. This is a works righteousness along with other sacraments they distort like baptism. This damns people to hell. It's more than being right or wrong, it's proclaiming the truth of the good new, the "avedis", the "avedaran".

Eph 6:12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."

Here is more evidence that the AAC believes that the communion is a sacrifice:

By Archbishop Shnork Kaloustian, 1969, Saints and Sacraments:

Pgs 39-40:

"I. NAMES GIVEN TO HOLY COMMUNION:
It has several names according to its various aspects and meanings. It is called: a) Eucharist,
which means Blessing or Thanksgiving, and describes its Sacramental aspect. b ) The Lord’s Supper, referring to the occasion on which it was established. c) Communion, because of the action and its results, inasmuch as we communicate with our Lord Himself in this sacrament. d) Sacrifice, which refers to the immolation of our Lord on the Cross, where He shed His Blood, as a victim, for the salvation of mankind. The last two terms are the most common nomenclature used in Armenian. “Holy Sacrifice” or “Sourp Badarak” is the term we use to describe the ritual of Holy Communion."

Pg 40:

"Holy Communion is not only a Sacrament but also a Sacrifice. “As Sacrifice, it is the continuation of the sacrifice of Golgotha.” The very words used by our Lord clearly show this: “My Body given . . ., or broken for you,” “My Blood shed . . . for many for the remission of sins.” “These expressions indicate that this Institution is itself a propitiatory sacrifice.” It is not simply a representation of the death of our Lord, but actual and real sacrifice, in which “The Offerer and the Victim are one and the same, our Lord, even if the sacrifice be offered by the priest.” It is not simply a reminder or commemoration of the historical fact of Golgotha, but an actual and objective sacrifice. The purpose of the sacrifice on the Cross was the reconciliation of man with God, the atonement for the sins of man and their expiation, in general. Whereas the Sacrifice of the Eucharist is offered for specific people, it is the application of the general benefits of the sacrifice of the Cross, to those for whom the Eucharist is celebrated, both for the living and the dead."

Now Arad is going to turn around and say, ok its a sacrifice, so, its not a crucifixion. That agani is not true. A perpetual sacrifice that the Badarak is, perpetuates the first sacrifice which is a crucifixion. There is more dialogue here:

http://www.armenians.......ewtopic&t=7


The Armenian Apostolic Church doesn't resacrifice Christ at Badarak. Badarak is the same sacrifice of Golgotha.
You claim we sacrifice Christ over and over because you can't understand, we partake of the eternal sacrifice. He is a living sacrifice.
Onnigism (the religion of Onnig) doesn't partake of the sacrifice of Christ. Without partaking of Christ sacrifice how can you be saved?
Here is what is really going on Onnig starts reading the Bible and decides The Armenian Church is wrong and all the churches have been wrong for 2000 years and Onnig came up with a right interpretation. You have over 30000 churches and they all say they have the right interpretation of the bible, Onnig thinks he is the only one that could understand the bible. God didn't give us a book to confuse us, he gave us The Church which is the pillar and foundation for the truth, we should rely on the Church and not Onnig for the right interpretation.
Onnig do You Care what is orthodox and what is not?
Your view is heterodoxy and is condemned by every historical Church Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Armenian Orthodox.
Do you think repentance is a work base salvation? Do you think salvation was work based in the Old Testament since people had to offer a lamb for their sins?
You don't believe in work base salvation but unless you do good work you can't know whether you are one of the elect? You have to work for your assurance?
Onnig it's clear you don't understand the view of the Armenian Church. Armenian orthodox priests that translated the bible to Armenian and it were our Orthodox Church that kept us from becoming Muslims. They were not bunch of heretics that didn't understand the bible as much as you.


#207 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 12:10 PM

I bet you didn’t know that William Saroyan, one of the most, if not THE BEST known American Armenian was an Armenian Presbyterian (read protestant) and a life long member of that church in Fresno.
Neither did I !!
Was it simply that he placed his Armenianness ahead of his sectarian denomination?
http://72.14.205.104...z...cd=13&gl=us
QUOTE
California, as the son of an Armenian immigrant. His father moved to New Jersey in 1905 - he was a small vineyard owner, who had been educated as a Presbyterian minister. In the new country he was forced to take farm-labouring work. He died in 1911 from peritonitis, after drinking a forbidden glass of water given by his wife, Takoohi. Saroyan was put in an orphanage in Alameda with his brothers. Six years later the family reunited in Fresno, where Takoohi had obtained work in a cannery.
In 1921 Saroyan attended the Technical School in order to learn to type. At the age of fifteen, Saroyan left the school. His mother had showed him some of his fathers writings, and he decided to become a writer. Saroyan continued his education by reading and writing on his own, and supporting himself by odd jobs. At the San Francisco Telegraph Company he worked as an office manager. A few of his early short articles were published in The Overland Monthly. His first collected stories started to appear in the 1930s. Among these was 'The Broken Wheel', which was written under the name Sirak Goryan. It was published in the Armenian journal Hairenik in 1933.…

Edited by Arpa, 29 January 2008 - 12:10 PM.


#208 Yervant1

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 01:44 PM

He was the guest speaker at the Armenian Evangelical college graduation ceremony in Beirut, one year before my graduation from there. smile.gif

#209 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Jan 29 2008, 07:44 PM)
He was the guest speaker at the Armenian Evangelical college graduation ceremony in Beirut, one year before my graduation from there. smile.gif

WS died in 1981, so it had to be before that.
And now you’re gonna tell us that you know Zaven Messerlian, … http://www.azad-hye....newsId=148hsk73 , Aram Bulghurjian, Oriord Salibian, Yervand Kassouny et al.!!!
Which one are you in these pictures?
http://groups.msn.co...f76reunion.msnw



#210 Yervant1

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:15 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jan 29 2008, 04:54 PM)
WS died in 1981, so it had to be before that.
And now you’re gonna tell us that you know Zaven Messerlian, … http://www.azad-hye....newsId=148hsk73 , Aram Bulghurjian, Oriord Salibian, Yervand Kassouny et al.!!!
Which one are you in these pictures?
http://groups.msn.co...f76reunion.msnw

It was very early seventies Zaven was my principle and I adored him. Aram Bulghurjian was one time my principal as well in another college, and I was good friends with his nephew. Yes Yervand Kassouny, his sister and husband Levon his family name escapes my mind who was the biology head at Haigazian University.
I'm not in those pictures. smile.gif
Now I remember Levon Karamanugian

Edited by Yervant1, 29 January 2008 - 04:26 PM.


#211 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:23 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Jan 29 2008, 10:15 PM)
It was very early seventies Zaven was my principle and I adored him. Aram Bulghurjian was one time my principal as well in another college, and I was good friends with his nephew. Yes Yervand Kassouny, his sister and husband Levon his family name escapes my mind who was the biology head at Haigazian University.
I'm not in those pictures. smile.gif

Not his sister. He had no sisters. His wife Janet/Jeannette nee Karamanougian and her bother Levon.
In 2001 I met his children at a gathering in Toronto, he had already died then.

Edited by Arpa, 29 January 2008 - 04:31 PM.


#212 Yervant1

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jan 29 2008, 05:23 PM)
Not his sister. His wife Janet Karamanougian and her bother Levon.

I think I got all confused and yes she was married to yervand you are right.

#213 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:44 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Jan 29 2008, 10:15 PM)
It was very early seventies Zaven was my principle and I adored him. Aram Bulghurjian was one time my principal as well in another college, and I was good friends with his nephew. Yes Yervand Kassouny, his sister and husband Levon his family name escapes my mind who was the biology head at Haigazian University.
I'm not in those pictures. smile.gif
Now I remember Levon Karamanugian

Levon was a much loved popular professor at AUB/Haigazian.
He would come to class with bloodshot eyes as if he had not slept the night before. He probably had not. He was a nicotine addict, when he ran out of cigarettes he would beg the students, and when offered filtered ones he would break the filters before lighting them.


#214 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Jan 29 2008, 10:27 PM)
I think I got all confused and yes she was married to yervand you are right.

http://hourijk.com/index2.html

#215 Yervant1

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jan 29 2008, 05:44 PM)
Levon was a much loved popular professor at AUB/Haigazian.
He would come to class with bloodshot eyes as if he had not slept the night before. He probably had not. He was a nicotine addict, when he ran out of cigarettes he would beg the students, and when offered filtered ones he would break the filters before lighting them.

You forgot to mention his stubborn coughs and the way he used to thump his chest, whenever students told him that he is killing himself he would say "T@ghas mek or aveli mek or pakas asank anank biti merninq".
Also his coffee mug was the glass beaker that the assistants used to prepare on the bunson burner for him. biggrin.gif

#216 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Jan 30 2008, 12:00 AM)
You forgot to mention his stubborn coughs and the way he used to thump his chest, whenever students told him that he is killing himself he would say "T@ghas mek or aveli mek or pakas asank anank biti merninq".
Also his coffee mug was the glass beaker that the assistants used to prepare on the bunson burner for him. biggrin.gif

And, in LA he lived to the ripe age of 80+???

#217 Yervant1

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jan 29 2008, 07:24 PM)
And, in LA he lived to the ripe age of 80+???

Wow 80+ that's awsome! I didn't know that.

#218 Arpa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:09 PM

QUOTE (Yervant1 @ Jan 29 2008, 10:27 PM)
I think I got all confused and yes she was married to yervand you are right.

And his grandfather Rev. Yeghia Kassouny, the father of modern of Armenian Armenology, even acknowledged by Ajairian, born in the village of Kessun/Kassun with a jurkish surname of Behesni-li-(ian) amended his family name to Kassouny.


#219 RemainFaithful

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 06:25 AM

Mr. Yervant Kassouny was the Editor in Chief of the Chanaser magazine, the publication of the Union of the Armenian Evangelical Churches in the Near East.
Mr. Zaven Messerlian is still the prinicpal of the Armenian Evangelical College. I think he's got a record there! Don't you think so? He has many lovers and supporters all around the world.

As for William Saroyan, if I'm not mistaken, he was the speaker at the graduation ceremony of Haigazian University in the 70's. I heard that he was a modest man and talked to everyone.

Let me see if I can find the article... Ah, yes, thanking google again, here it is: http://forum.armenia...ead.php?t=10836 John Markarian, the first president of Haigazian University (Haigazian College by then), tells the story of Saroyan's stay here in Beirut and Anjar.

#220 RemainFaithful

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 06:39 AM

William Saroyan's father was an Armenian Presbyterian (evangelical). Although this was surprising to me at first, but then again, there was an Armenian Presbyterian Church already established in the USA in the 1890's.

Another person who is famous is Mr. Harry Koundakjian, the famouse photographer in Associated Press, who recently lectured in the "Lsaran" of Aztag newspaper.




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