193 replies to this topic

[Armen]

I feel like The Gevorgian Seminary in Etchmiadzin has been granted computers and free internet connection from the US Embassy in Yerevan.

[bellthecat]

THOTH,

The Bible says that you are already perishing, but in death will God's wrath culminate to its fullest degree because your sins are still yours.

Hmmm, if only it were true.

[onnig]

Hi Sasun,

Onnig, do you realize that such concepts as "God's wrath", "eternal punishment", etc. contradict to the spirit of Jesus's teachings which is more like "God's love", "God's compassion" ? It always strikes me how many people do not see the difference.

On the contrary, the Bible records Jesus speaking more of Hell and judgement than He does of God's mercy, and love, because both are just as important. Why would Christ preach salvation if we don't even know what we are being saved from. God is saving us from Himself, that is His justice and wrath.

Edited by onnig, 19 August 2004 - 02:32 PM.

[vava]

Faith, belief, spritual needs are very different from religion. Church is just another structure like government and it was one of the primary institutions that mutated Christianity to what it is now.
I do not get my knowledge about Christianity for one source so that it can be viewed as dogma and I do not view other faiths as inferiour to Christianity.

Very well said Armen jan. One of the things that truly bothers me about the followers of mainstream religions today is the sheer level of intolerance they exhibit towards others. If Christ was here today, i'm sure he wouldn't be too happy about this whole 'us' and 'them' game that's being played out in religious circles. Rather I think he'd advocate more love/acceptance and much less fear-mongering.

[vava]

God is saving us from Himself, that is His justice and wrath.

I'm sorry - but I want no part of a 'god' like that. What you're saying is a total contradiction of the supposed values of 'good' Christians.

[Sasun]

On the contrary, the Bible records Jesus speaking more of Hell and judgement than He does of God's mercy, and love, because both are just as important.

Hmm... I have the opposite view that in the Gospels 90% of the time Jesus speaks about the mercifulness and love of God. I am sure I have not missed anything in the Gospels. It is something else if other books in the Bible speak of different things that actually contradict to Jesus.

Why would Christ preach salvation if we don't even know what we are being saved from.  God is saving us from Himself, that is His justice and wrath.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. God is saving from Himself? You think this is Christian, please quote Jesus (not someone else from the Bible or elsewhere) saying this?

God is saving us from sins, evil, ignorance, misery, unhappiness, human imperfections, negative qualities such as anger, aggression, lust, greed, jealosey, etc... never from Himself. How can someone love such a God that will arbitrarily punish you or choose to save from such punishment? Do you really think this type of a God is just? I don't think so. That is why many of the Christian dogmas are considered untrue. They are made up by some people other than Jesus. They have little to do with the actual massage of Jesus.

Edited by Sasun, 19 August 2004 - 02:53 PM.

[onnig]

Vava,

'Good' Christians will give you the full counsel of God, that is, everything that God is, not just his love and mercy and compassion. Once you know all His attributes then you will truly understand the fullness of his love, mercy and compassion.

Edited by onnig, 19 August 2004 - 03:05 PM.

[onnig]

Sasun,

Sorry, but that makes no sense. God is saving from Himself? You think this is Christian, please quote Jesus (not someone else from the Bible or elsewhere) saying this?

I have quoted only from the Bible. Here is another quote to answer you, from Paul the Apostle regarding God saving us from Himself, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, one of my favorite:

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

and now from the Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:4-5:

"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!"

speaking of God the Father. Now Jesus speaks about Himself, Matthew 13:41-42:

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The Son of Man being Jesus. There's a lot more but I think this is enough for now.

[Sip]

God is Holy above all things. All things exist through Him, by Him and for Him. God cannot sin and does not tolerate sin and therefore will deal with sin on the last day.

I'm sorry but that didn't make any sense. If all things exist through him and he is above all things, then sin must also exist through him.

What's this paranioa with what will come after death? Who cares about after death? We will be dead and nothing will matter. Let's focus on what's really important which is LIFE.

[Sasun]

Onnig, that is the idea of hell. Hell is for justice, and justice is not arbitrary, it is a form of protection of the good from bad behavior. If there was no punishment for evil acts it would be unfair, and there would be no lesson to learn. A good God cannot be unfair. Therefore there is hell (one of the reasons). That does not mean that God is protecting us from Himslelf. Do you see my point? It sounds very unfair if you say that.

It is like in a family where kids fight the father or mother will make up some form of punishment to teach a lesson to the guilty among children so the well behaving children will not suffer from their hands and will feel protected. But will the parents actually condemn the children to eternal (or lifelong) punishment? No, it is not possible (in most cases at least).

Jesus has indicated on many occassions of God's mercy. I primarily refer to the Armenian Bible that's why I can't make quotes, but if necessary I can quote from other Bibles wich are close enough. Do you really want to count the instances where Jesus speaks of punishment vs. mercy and compare?

Edited by Sasun, 19 August 2004 - 03:53 PM.

[Sip]

Sasun, hell is inherently unfair. There is NO "finite" act that can justify an eternity of punishment. And lets face it, life is finite, and humans have finite abilities. Come on, even hitler doesn't deserve more than a few trillion years of constantly being sodomized and burned.

Edited by Seapahn, 19 August 2004 - 04:00 PM.

[onnig]

Sip,

The paranoia is due to the warnings we were given by God. Hell exists, so what can be done to avoid it? What is the escape?

God is not the author of sin, man is. Although man came from God, God, being omnipotent, can create a creature that can sin in and of its own, that does not make God the author of sin.

In Hebrews 4:15 it says about Christ:

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. "

In 1 John 1:5 it says about God the Father:

"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. "

[Sasun]

Sasun, hell is inherently unfair. There is NO "finite" act that can justify an eternity of punishment. And lets face it, life is finite, and humans have finite abilities. Come on, even hitler doesn't deserve more than a few trillion years of constantly being sodomized and burned.

Sip, eternal hell would be unfair, but a limited time in hell would be fair. I think you agree with this, and as I said above I am not a believer of eternal hell.

As to sodomizing and burning, lets not forget that if there is no body then there is no senses and all things that can be done to the body cannot be done in hell, and pain cannot be felt. So whatever bad things happens in hell gotta be different from ordinary pain and suffering. But I suppose burning and sodomizing could be some model for hell experience

[Sasun]

Onnig, I don't know how clear I was and if you agree with what I said 2 posts back, here is another example. Normal societies have systems of justice - prison terms, elaborate laws, even execution, etc.... a huge legal system. The legal system and a fair implementation are key to fairness in the society. They are meant to protect and support the society as a whole.
The legal system will clearly specify crimes and punishments, its a clear warning to everyone. People who will break the laws will be punished and will suffer at the hands of the legal system. Now, there are two ways to look
1) legal system is benevolent, the only goal is to benefit and protect the society. in doing so it may hurt some individuals after warning, all for the benefit of the society
2) legal system is protecting people from itself

Which way is a more fair characterization of the legal system and makes more sense?

[Ludwig9]

What does a example of a judicial system have to do with the topic ?

[onnig]

Sasun,

You are doing the same thing TOTH is doing, you are using earthly things to talk about heavenly things, like comparing man to man. It is fair punishment to send someone to hell forever for sinning. You have to remember that sin is against God who is holy and eternal meaning no begining and no end. Therefore punishment is eternal. There must be punishment for sin and since God is eternal then punishment is eternal.

Are you claiming to be wiser than God? Or are you claiming to be more just and merciful than God? Since all of God's attributes are perfect, including His attributes of justice and mercy, God must see to it that sin is punished or He won't be just, but because of His mercy, He gave His Son to die for sinners so that sinners my live for eternity in His presence and not in hell.

God is either just or is merciful, He is never unjust. Men think too highly of themselves, making that blasphemous claim.

Edited by onnig, 19 August 2004 - 05:33 PM.

[Anoushik]

Of course we all are imperfect. But when someone imperfect comes forward and starts condemning you to eternal hell and fires, or starts a war against another religion, that's what is wrong.

Exactly, and this same applies to God. God (or whatever higher being there may be) is not perfect, otherwise, we, being his creations, would be perfect.

[DominO]

Yes Sasun, the only way the explain the horrible characterization of a newborn as "sinful" would be along those lines.

But ...
Imperfection is the basis of life, and more importantly, of self-awareness. Perfect things are by necessity dead or self-unaware.

This will be my only post in this thread as I have no interest or time to sink in a "born-again" sort of discussion.

Sounds like one of my thread or posts of over a year ago. If we were to be perfect, there could be only one kind of perfection... If I were to be perfect, and you were to be perfect... you and me would be identical... if everyone was to be perfect, identity won't exist, and the interaction between the observer and the observed would be disturbed, because we would self-observe ourself, since everyone will be the same... in those conditions no identity could emerge. Perfection would exclude any form of language, language having a major role in the emergence of consciousness.

I don't know if your reason of writing that was the same as mine(the one I present here), in part or in full... that would make me agree with you 100% for the first time. Might that be an insult for you? Depend on how well you take the fact that you agree with a dadaist... you could as well take the fact that I might agree with you simply as a statistical probability or chances...

hhhh... what a boring thread.

[Anoushik]

He gave His Son to die for sinners so that sinners my live for eternity in His presence and not in hell.

It just occured to me that Jesus' sacrifice shouldn't be a big deal since He'll still live in eternity I don't know why I didn't realize this before.

[Sasun]

Onnig/Ludwig, I want to see some logic but you fail to give any. Jesus gave tons of earthly parables to explain heavenly things. Am I not allowed to make earthly comparisons? Please think and then answer.

If God is protecting us from himself then it is not God at all. If you think that way and you have faith in God then yours is a blind faith I am afraid. And if God created me and then condemns me to eternal hell then he is not a father to me at all. Even ordinary, bad fathers will not condemn their worst children to some eternal punishment. If you are going to accuse me that I am using earthly examples, again I should point you to Jesus using exactly the example of earthly father to introduce an understanding of the Heavenly Father. Again, please think before you answer. Rotating a standard line from here and there will not do.