160 replies to this topic

[axel]

Why rules? Because we all know that one’s freedom ends where another one’s begins. Why do you agree to follow rules Sasun? Why do you stop at red lights? The same goes for morality. The belief “treat others like you want to be treated” is a social construct, realized for the survival and the betterment of a society. This has nothing to do with religion. So, to answer your question of “why must we be good?” the plain answer is that it’s good for the society, and thus it is good for the individual, since every individual is also part of the society.

Anoushik, would you do (what you consider as) evil if you had the insurance you would not to suffer from the consequences? if not, why?

Of course, do not answer "for the good of society" for I will ask, why is the good of society desirable if it doesn't affect you, your "rights", your "desires" and your "fulfillment" as a pleasure-driven "social animal"..., as is implied by the question)

PS: Already asked this question to our very own Weakest Link and soya licking champion btw, whose brilliant mind, I must say, blinded me.

[axel]

The sole valid moral criterion is Love and that is precisely what is lacking in your very "rational" arguments. And it is no wonder for Love is not "rational". Reason in your sense (ie in the enlightenment sense) is just the egocentric pursuit of self-interest, egoism and the "good of society" of society is just perceived as the optimized satisfaction of all self-interests. Nauseating. Makes me think of Aldus Huxley's brave new world. Outdated Sci-Fi, you might say. I would agree, for it has become reality.

[Sasun]

Anoushik, indeed you didn't prove that morality is rationally achieved. I don't believe anyone can prove.
One stops at the red light for different reasons, reasons could be not to get a ticket, not to be struck by another car and injured, as well as not to run over a pedestrian. There are different reasons and motivations in the society, both selfish and unselfish. Rules that are selfish cannot be morality, rules that are unselfish can be morality. The red light cannot be considered as morality since it does not necessarily imply selfless act on part of drivers.
What you are saying is that the society must have rules so everyone can be happy because they are interdependent. This is a perfect case of selfish thinking. If the ultimate goal is the individual's selfish happiness then there is every reason for everyone to get rid of everyone else in the society who happens to compete with them.

And what about other societies? Is it allowed to bomb another society which is geographically far away to benefit your own society? Let's say the good of that other society is never the good of your own, so you are interested that they die as soon as possible leaving their wealth and land to your society. You will never receive any benefit from them. So tell me please, should your society wage a war against this other society and defeat them? And as rational people the first society will surely think that they would be better off not killing the enemy but making them slaves so they could produce more benefits for their society.

[Sasun]

But I'd like to know how you explain according to religion why humanity must survive.

There are various ways one can say, depending on religion, and all of them have to do with God. (I am not sure about Buddhism though).
My answer is, humanity must survive because it is God's intention that His Kingdom must come to the earth. Every human being should realize God and manifest God on earth, each one of us has a purpose which we have forgotten. That is the ultimate goal of humanity that each human being knows himself/herself and manifest God. We are divine beings having human experiences on earth but we don't realize that. Once we realize it we will have conscious onenness with God. Before we realize it we will have a lot of confusion like we do now, and a lot of suffering.
Many things could be said on the subject, but I think you get the point now.

[THOTH]

So should we really follow God's commandments...here is a story of those who did...etc

http://www.randomhou...tures/krakauer/

and this review - for Sasun in particualr..

http://www.popmatter...of-heaven.shtml

[THOTH]

Taking the Bible literally...

http://www.gracecath..._20021110.shtml

(note this is in real audio)...following link provides an excerpt of the text):

http://www.dean-just...e_ridiculed.htm


came accross this winner...perhaps we should do a poll...

I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."---Former President George Bush


speaking of we should perhaps discuss the pledge of allegience rulling eh?

[Armat]

Armat, instead of playing chess and gardening, you should post more often this type of stuff
Seriously, I admire Buddha's teachings and would like to learn more

Sas jan, my knowledge on the subject is limited but would recommend reading anything by Allan Watts on the subject of Zen and Buddhism and my fave
One Arrow, One Life: Zen, Archery, Enlightenment
by Kenneth Kushner
Gardening is part meditation for me so in fact it is zen.

[Anoushik]

Anoushik, would you do (what you consider as) evil if you had the insurance you would not to suffer from the consequences? if not, why?

No, if I consciously understood that it is evil I would try as much as possible to avoid doing evil. Even if I were not to suffer the consequences I know that another person had to pay for my evil actions and I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that. But Axel, it's just the way I've been brought up in my family. This has nothing to do with religion. I'm an atheist and my family is not religious (even though my dad hates the idea that I accept there is no God). But we were never taught to be good to others because God is watching and will reward or punish us. We were just told constantly to try to put us into another person's shoes and look at the world from their perspective.

The sole valid moral criterion is Love and that is precisely what is lacking in your very "rational" arguments.

Love of what?

[Anoushik]

There are different reasons and motivations in the society, both selfish and unselfish. Rules that are selfish cannot be morality, rules that are unselfish can be morality.

Let's say I agree that rules that are unselfish can be morality. But what are you really talking about? I don't understand. If one is trying to be moral and act morally because of religion it already shows you that his actions are already motivated because of selfish reasons. He is trying to be moral because of God's reward in the future. This shows you that religion clearly has nothing to do with morality.

And Sasun, I wanted to know why you stop at the red light not for the obvious reasons that you don't want a ticket but why there exists a red light in the first place? Who cares, right? We should all do as we please and if I don't want to stop at the red light I won't stop, right? It's not like God created human beings with specific instructions to how to make social rules and follow them.

[Sasun]

Let's say I agree that rules that are unselfish can be morality. But what are you really talking about? I don't understand.

Hmm... I don't understand what you don't understand

If one is trying to be moral and act morally because of religion it already shows you that his actions are already motivated because of selfish reasons. He is trying to be moral because of God's reward in the future.

Well, you are minsunderstanding religion just like many religious people do. One must not act in certain ways because of promised reward, or out of fear of punishment. The role of religion in morality is to establish what is right and what is wrong. Once you know what is right and believe in it, you as a true religious person do the right things. Such moral actions are unselfish actions. That means one has to put his self after other things, duties, poor people, etc... so how is it selfish I don't understand?

Axel has made a very good post above. Why do devoted religious people follow Christ's teachings? Not out of fear, and not because of a promised reward. They don't really think about such things. Their only motivation is pure, selfless Love for God, love for Jesus. There is no reason, no expectation from this love. It is just love for the sake of love. Unless you understand it I am afraid you will always misunderstand what really religion is about.

This shows you that religion clearly has nothing to do with morality.

Let me tell you that you could not be more wrong. Just study a little the history of religions, all morality that existed in all societies came from religions. Very often relision and morality were identical. Even what you call a humanistic morality came from religious teachings. It was not taken directly but rather indirectly. (And as far as I can see, we have already established that such morality did not come from rational thinking.) Non-religious people consciously or uncosciously have taken some elements and given their own flavor and call it "rational" humanistic morality.

And Sasun, I wanted to know why you stop at the red light not for the obvious reasons that you don't want a ticket but why there exists a red light in the first place? Who cares, right? We should all do as we please and if I don't want to stop at the red light I won't stop, right? It's not like God created human beings with specific instructions to how to make social rules and follow them.

I don't know what exactly you mean. I didn't say that God has given us specific instructions. God has given us various guidlines which we know as religions and spiritual practices that are advisable (and very important) to follow, and has given us free will to follow or not.

Edited by Sasun, 15 June 2004 - 07:59 PM.

[Sasun]

No, if I consciously understood that it is evil I would try as much as possible to avoid doing evil. Even if I were not to suffer the consequences I know that another person had to pay for my evil actions and I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that.

Why would not you be able to live with yourself? If another person suffers what does it have to do with you? Does that suffering bother you? Is there a supernatural connection between you and this other person who would suffer? I, a rational computer, cannot understand this. Am I missing data?
This reminds me something, could it be moral responsibility that religious people are supposed to have?

[Anoushik]

Sasun, now I realize that it's incredibly hard trying to communicate about such difficult subjects as religion over the internet - I have so many thoughts and yet I am unable to clearly articulate what I think and how I feel about this subject. It's sad, really. So I guess I'll just stop here... Just one more thing, though... Why do you insist that only religious people are supposed to have moral responsibilty? Yes, the suffering of another person bothers me because I don't want to see another fellow human being suffer. This doesn't mean that I'm religious. And this has nothing to do with God.

[THOTH]

No Anoushik - you are doing great. You can't help that certain religious people are so closed minded and unthinking that they can't accept that others see things differently (and just as legitimatly) then they and that perhaps their immagined view of reality isn't by definition the correct one - etc...sad but true...

To claim that there is no morality unless it is tied into some religion is just an absurd statement. It presuposes that we are all children...among other things...and denies the fact that people are fundementally good and do care about one another and not just themselves.

Edited by THOTH, 16 June 2004 - 08:02 AM.

[Sasun]

Why do you insist that only religious people are supposed to have moral responsibilty?

You see, I did not say that. Everyone should have moral responsibility. I just pointed out how similar your feelings are to what religion is suggesting to have. You do not have to be religious to do the right thing. It just shows that, contrary to atheist beliefs, religion is not imposing some artificial rules that are alien to human beings.

And this has nothing to do with God.

Everything has to do with God, whether or not you believe it. In your case, you are following your conscience and not believing in God. But your conscience is the voice of God metaphorically speaking. In other words, God would have said the same thing had you been able to listen to him.

Anoushik, may I suggest that your thoughts are not clear on the subject. The reason could be that you are biased and prejudiced against religion, God and things like that. There maybe a good reason for that in your background but that is not correct. In my humble opinion, the best thing in your position is to be a perfect agnostic: just say that you do not know anything and try to learn with your own mind, don't take anything granted and question everything that you feel is not right. Of course, you would do that if your goal is to learn. It seems to me that mostly you wish to learn rather than prove that God doesn't exist. Some people mindlessly argue contradicting themselves and resorting to dishonesty all the time pretending that did not happen. Even a second is not worth wasting on this type of argument.

[THOTH]

Some people mindlessly argue contradicting themselves and resorting to dishonesty all the time pretending that did not happen. Even a second is not worth wasting on this type of argument.

yes of course...look I can respect your choices - but you and others continually put down those who do not believe and act as if it is some sort of defficiency - and it is not.

I have been making strong and consistent arguments - regardless of what you say. Your unwilingness to really address the real and serious issues I raise seems as if you are afraid to examine alternatives to your belief system. Your claim that I am "not worth the time" and that I don't know what I'm talking about is just a sign of weakness on your part. But I really don't care - do as you wish. But I've personally had it with others who continually put down atheism/agnostiscim and such and who claim to know all truth and that any who disagree are damned and ignorant or what have you and I will continue to make my arguments to the contrary.

[axel]

people are fundementally good

Mais oui, Jean-Jacques, "Man is good". "It is society that corrupts him" (not to mention religion). And please do not try to pretend that society originates from Man. It doesn't.

[ED]

Society does contain man as well as other biological forms of life bound together with one or more common ideas, diverse religions, cultures, common cause (in this case humans being example). Although I agree society does not originate from man, but also it’s very hard to imagine one without man.

[THOTH]

And please do not try to pretend that society originates from Man. It doesn't.

I guess your right...its all the bacteria...they are controlling everything...we are just the hosts...

[axel]

My apologies. I was being sarcastic. I should have guessed that THOTH' enlightened mind would not be able to see the spirit behind the letter.

Edited by axel, 16 June 2004 - 10:10 AM.

[Anoushik]

You do not have to be religious to do the right thing. It just shows that, contrary to atheist beliefs, religion is not imposing some artificial rules that are alien to human beings.

Yes, I agree. I never said that religion is imposing rules that are alien to humans. How could it since religion is invented by man?

Everything has to do with God, whether or not you believe it.

Well, and I say nothing has to do with God, whether you believe it or not. You're so sure of yourself that you are the one who's biased.

In your case, you are following your conscience and not believing in God. But your conscience is the voice of God metaphorically speaking. In other words, God would have said the same thing had you been able to listen to him.

This is absurd. I don't believe this. Just because you do doesn't mean this is real.