64 replies to this topic

[Zartonk]

J&G: Another album!! This one was before blind alley.


http://www.amazon.co...=glance&s=music

[Azat]

the correct link for Gor is here:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/mkhitarian
read also the reviews!

I went to his concert few weeks back(unfortunately had to leave early) at the Revo Cafe and he was super. very very talented guy.(I also saw this hot chick there. I think we should invite her to Hyeforum)

[Harut]

(I also saw this hot chick there. I think we should invite her to Hyeforum)

i had a lunch with her a week later...

[Azat]

i had a lunch with her a week later...

baits du shat tip es ha

[gamavor]

Quake is such a powerful album that simply overshadows anything else. Honestly I was disapoited of "Blind alley". Not that it is bad, but after Quake my expectations were maybe too high. It is a common patern for many rock groups. Haven't heard anything from J&G. If anyone please share your input.

Edited by gamavor, 17 April 2006 - 12:36 AM.

[DerOhannesian]

can anybody tell me how to upload mp3 files onto this site? I have some Gor Mchitarian music. Thanks.

get in contact with me ill help u out

[gamavor]

As I said earlier these guys are from my blood group!

Enjoy!





http://youtube.com/watch?v=GH-fhtAcofo

[Zartonk]

Man, Gams, I am nominating you for Official YouTube monitor of HyeForum. Awesome stuff!

[gamavor]

http://youtube.com/w...p...ted&search=

[kumkap]

I have a great hope in the "nor serunt" musicians such as Gor Mkhitarian.

i don't. this is what i don't like about the new generation of armenians. it's all about trying to westernize armenian music so that armenians convince themselves and others that they fit in with american/european culture. what is so great about an armenian musician that just tries to copy bob dylan-style american folk music on the guitar. putting armenian words to some music does not make the music armenian. guitar is not an armenian instrument. neither is piano. why? because you can't play armenian meldodies correctly on them. they are only designed for playing western tempered scales. you can't play the quarter tones that make armenian music armenian. these quarter tones are in any good duduk playing and they are in the sharagans too. the armenian instruments are duduk and other winds (zurna, shvi, etc), kamancha, tar, kanun, santur, ud, etc. if you are a musically inclined person, learn one of those instruments. find somebody from the older generation in your community who knows one of those instruments and learn from them. do it before it's too late, they won't be here forever.

i know armenian-american 'kef music' isn't everyone's cup of tea, but look at richard hagopian, khachig kazarian, and jack chalikian for example, now in their 60s and 70s. they were born in places like fresno, detroit, and new york. their parents came from places like erzerum, van, adapazar after the genocide. like today's generation they grew up with and were influenced by all kinds of other music, jazz, rock and roll, etc. but they grew up listening to their parents' music in the house and learned ud, clarinet, kanun, mostly by themselves, just by listening. they didn't try make the music more palatable to western ears, they tried to be as faithful to the traditions of the music as they could. and considering the lack of resources (no ipods, downloading mp3s, youtube, etc.) they did an outstanding job. they were a hit. armenians came out in droves to hear them play and do shurchbar. this generation should worry less about fitting in musically and be more interested in seeking out the roots of their musical heritage.

[gamavor]

Kumkap, I beg to disagree. Contemporary Armenian music is not just copy-cat of mainstream American or European music (I really don't know what "American" music is and have vague idea what European music is). What is at stake is simply different genre of music. Just like Armenian folk and religious chants have their own coloring (although for the most part native) the same way, Armenian contemporary music has its own merits which might be influenced by other styles and/or foreign influences.

Contemporary music is just form of musical expression that appeals to the young people and in the case of the Armenian contemporary music it makes it even more appealing by incorporating native sounds and melodies that make our music popular and appealing even to the foreigners. With that in mind I just say GOOD JOB "BAMB IR", Gor, and all the rest....!!!

Edited by gamavor, 04 June 2007 - 07:49 PM.

[Sassun]

Wowww!!!!!!!!!!

This is the 1st time I hear their songs .

ANyone know where i can listen to more of their music ?

[gamavor]

http://cdbaby.com/cd/bambir

[Zartonk]

bob dylan-style american folk music on the guitar

Is that really how you see it?

[Armenak]

Kumkap, I'm actually not really a fan of Richard Hagopian's music. I do give him credit for preserving the music of the Anatolian/Ottoman Armenians - but that's just it - the music sounds too Ottoman, too orientalized, and not in a good way. This is just my opinion and I could be way off (I usually am).

As far as traditional music goes, I like the Shoghaken Ensemble better.

I'm also not a fan of Bob Dylan, but let's stick to Armenian music for now.

[kumkap]

Kumkap, I'm actually not really a fan of Richard Hagopian's music. I do give him credit for preserving the music of the Anatolian/Ottoman Armenians - but that's just it - the music sounds too Ottoman, too orientalized, and not in a good way. This is just my opinion and I could be way off (I usually am).

As far as traditional music goes, I like the Shoghaken Ensemble better.

I'm also not a fan of Bob Dylan, but let's stick to Armenian music for now.

i don't listen to hagopian either, only occasionally if they play a song i want to learn (they do have an enormous repertoire). i prefer to listen to the old masters or today's conservatory trained musicians on those instruments. i merely used him as an example of the difference between that generation and this one, in the sense there was an interest in learning the traditional instruments back then whereas now it seems the younger generation are more interested in being rock stars and fitting in with the music they hear coming from american popular culture.

say what you want about it though hagopian represents what the musical taste of armenians (mostly ottoman armenians) who settled in america in the early 20th c. was. if you think hagopian is too turkish-influenced you should listen to the cd "Armenians on 8th Ave.", which is made up of recordings of actual armenian musicians who performed in new york night clubs in the 30s, 40s, 50s. this is music that was popular among everyone living in the cosmopolitan centers of ottoman turkey, armenians, turks, greeks, jews, etc.

it's actually a great irony that this music could be criticized as being too ottoman and too orientalized since armenians made enormous contributions to ottoman music. in fact the one area where the contributions of armenians to ottoman society is not denied, is music. you will regularly hear turks themselves say that in the old days, all the great masters of the traditional instruments were armenian. in istanbul they would perform in the sultan's palaces or gazinos into the early hours of the morning, then go home, put a shabig on and sing in church. this is no coincidence. ottoman music is an interesting subject (to me anyway) because it's really a synthesis of many musical traditions: persian, arabic, byzantine, armenian, gypsy, other balkan etc. the names of the makams (scales) tend to come from persian and arabic (names like huzzam, hijaz, nihavent, etc., though they are closely related to the byzantine octoechos system), a lot of the rhythmic characteristics (i.e. unusual times signatures) from greek and bulgarian music, the lyricism from armenian music (this is one theory why armenian composers were so successful), and compositional forms from places as far as romania. after hrant dink was murdered, bbc-turkish carried an over 20 minute long program on the "The Armenian composers [of Istanbul] from past to present":

Geçmisten günümüze Ermeni bestekârlar
(this is a really good program and i wish they would translate it into armenian and english so armenians could listen to it)

one of the many names mentioned in this program is hampartzum limonciyan, who was chief musician of the armenian church in istanbul in the 18th-19th c. and devised his own system of musical notation. he tried to model it after the medieval armenian khaz system (whose key then as today was still lost), in order to put the sharagans into writing. it soon became the notation system used in ottoman classical music, and if i remember correctly even jews were using it to write their religious music down. if this was the notation system used to sing sharagans in the church, then the notes which its symbols represent are the same as those you hear in ottoman classical music, which is based on the makam/mugham system of scales. these are scales and modes that have quarter tones which don't exist in western tempered scales and give the music that oriental quality you are talking about - of course the instruments themselves also play an important role in creating that sound, but you need to understand the rules of the makam/mugham system in order to play those instruments. "hampartzum notakrutiun" eventually fell out of favor once european staff notation was introduced but i'm told there are still a few armenian churches in istanbul that still use it. some people in turkey seem to have created this website about it.

well, as we all know the ottoman armenians are gone, and i guess so is their music. but to me this is more reason to preserve it. but armenians seem to want to deny that any part of their culture is oriental. greeks don't do this. here are a couple of young greek guys in new york who play ottoman classical. this is because like armenians greeks were very prominent in ottoman classical music and they feel that it is part of their musical heritage. the same is true of armenians however. it's not the best recording but if you have a chance take a listen to them playing the greek composer kemenceci vasiliaki's kurdilihicazkar pesrev on this page

Edited by kumkap, 05 June 2007 - 02:56 AM.

[gamavor]

it's actually a great irony that this music could be criticized as being too ottoman and too orientalized since armenians made enormous contributions to ottoman music.

Exactly! Because of that no need to preserve it. It is not Armenian to begin with. It is Ottoman. It is not even Western Armenian folk music. It is - excuse me - garbage.

Just like Charles Aznavour music is 100% French and International in the same time, because it appeals to audiences far away from France, the same way the music of Ottoman Armenians is liked by different nationalities. Being Armenian musician or artist influenced by foreign culture doesn't necessarily mean that the artistic outcome would be foreign. Take for example Khachaturian.

[kumkap]

Exactly! Because of that no need to preserve it. It is not Armenian to begin with. It is Ottoman. It is not even Western Armenian folk music. It is - excuse me - garbage.

Just like Charles Aznavour music is 100% French and International in the same time, because it appeals to audiences far away from France, the same way the music of Ottoman Armenians is liked by different nationalities. Being Armenian musician or artist influenced by foreign culture doesn't necessarily mean that the artistic outcome would be foreign. Take for example Khachaturian.

you contradict yourself. you say: music of ottoman armenians is not armenian because it is ottoman, which is mutually exclusive of armenian. (here is your first error, but never mind). but music of khachaturian is armenian because the armenian musician or artist can be influenced by foreign culture and still be armenian. by this logic ottoman armenians can be influenced by ottoman culture and still be armenian. why is khachaturian armenian when he received practically his entire musical education in moscow or st. petersburg or whatever and composed music for european style symphony orchestras which don't contain any armenian instruments, but the armenian composer of istanbul whose musical education comes from the armenian church, composes for orchestras which use native instruments, is not armenian?

so far, you are against armenians learning native instruments, in favor of promoting bob dylan and simon and garfunkel copycats (where did that come from anyway, russians started doing it so you guys started copying them?), and hagopian's music is ottoman and not even western armenian. wrong! it is not ottoman, but is western armenian. you just showed you have no clue what western armenian is. you think i'm going to listen to someone from a redneck hellhole like texas telling me what western armenian is? lol. howdy padner! when you've been to van, ani, kars, ardahan, artvin, hemsin, trabzon, ordu, sabin karahisar, arapgir, agn, yeprad ked, kharpert, malatya, gurun, gesaria, zeytun, marash, antep, adana, tarsus, izmir, and bolis like i have then maybe you can tell me what western armenian is.

Edited by kumkap, 05 June 2007 - 07:14 PM.

[Armenak]

Okay kumkap, I guess that means that some of the finest Western Armenian songs we have are "Hicaz Taksim" and "Huseyni Taksim." And there is no way that these songs could be considered Ottoman?

[kumkap]

Okay kumkap, I guess that means that some of the finest Western Armenian songs we have are "Hicaz Taksim" and "Huseyni Taksim." And there is no way that these songs could be considered Ottoman?

there is nothing that is not armenian about these songs. it's just the words that are the problem. a taksim is just an improvistation (solo improvisation). they are usually played at the beginning of a song by one musician as a way of setting the tone for the piece. so in fact if you ever hear a duduk solo as the intro to a song this can be considered a taksim.

"huseyni" refers to the makam/mugham, i.e. the scale that the musician is improvising on. when i first learned about this stuff i was surprised to find out that huseyni is actually one of the most common scale in traditional armenian songs (it's just that it's the turkish/arabic name for that scale). for example sari gyalin is in huseyni. or if you have that shoghaken ensemble cd armenia anthology, find the song ishkhanabar, that's in huseyni. the distinguishing characteristics of huseyni are the second and seventh notes of the scale. if we take E as the tonic, the second note is neither F nor F# but a note in between those two notes (they call this a quarter tone in english), then G A B, the quarter tone between C and C#, D , then E again. (if the phrase is descending it might be C instead of that quarter tone). but the bottom line is if you don't play those quarter tones it doesn't sound right, it sounds flat. that's what makes it sound like a duduk playing.

hicaz is also very common. if you know the sayat nova song qyamancha that's in hicaz. again, though these scales exist in armenian and greek music the terminology was taken from turkish/arabic, but this would have been necessary in a place like istanbul were there many cultures and they would have needed to agree on the terminology. it's not like we haven't borrowed musical terms from german, french, italian into armenian. the other thing to remember is that in the old days and still today, to be considered a good musician you need to be able to play a good taksim. that's probably why hagopian put those tracks on his cd.

Edited by kumkap, 06 June 2007 - 11:10 AM.