427 replies to this topic

[Anoushik]

Believe me I was a non-believer for a few seconds too. But that was the scariest time of my life. It was not natural for me. I guess I would rather follow my truth and be viewed as a fool by some than be untrue to myself just so I can follow popular convention.

This goes both ways. Just like for a non-believer it seems foolish to be religious, for a believer it is foolish to be a non-believer. And as far as I know, historically and currently the popular convention is always more religious rather than the opposite.

[Sip]

To each his own. May I have my faith without you judging me to be inferior or less intelligent than you?

You may have any faith you want but the point of threads like this, at least for me, is to question things that don't make sense. And your faith makes absolutely no sense to me other than being a mechanism that somehow makes you feel better about things. If that's why you pray, fine. But how can you say what those people did (i.e. pray for their kid until she died) is stupid, while at the same time you want me not to say your prayer is stupid?

Either you can't say their actions were stupid and expect me to behave like you, or you can keep on saying those people in the news article as well as the Jehova Witnesses are stupid, and allow the same kind of freedom for me Can't have it both ways.

Edited by Sip, 31 March 2008 - 02:11 PM.

[Ashot]

Sip jan, I don't think you read Em's article quite well... how about read it one more time!!! all she said is it's stupid to sit down and pray knowing there is a way out of it...

Such as, you are drowning and starting to pray for god to help you and a boat comes by you refuse to take the boat because you think that god will help you - your action is stupid but praying is not!!!

[Arpa]

Come on Sip. We aren't going there are we? Of course medical interventon should have been sought. Of course I think that the Jehova's Witnesses are crazy for not allowing blood transfusions, artificial resuscitation, etc. Who said that the use of medicine goes against God?
====

Գիտանքը եւ տ-գիտանքը միայն մէկ տարով են բաժանուել:
Knowledge and ignorance are separated only by one letter. And, here we are talking about is and is not, does and does not out of un-knowledge. To my knowledge jewohovah's witnesses have no issue with medical intervention. Are you talikng about those other idiots known as Christian Scientists? What an oxymoron!!! Only if we were to learn the difference between science and science fiction!!!!

Edited by Arpa, 31 March 2008 - 02:41 PM.

[MosJan]

Երբ կյանքում ամեն ինչ լավ է, արողջ և ուրախ էս, երբ երեխաներտ վազում և ծիծաղում են, երբ ծնողներտ գըլխիտ են ամեն ինչ լավ է մեկ խոսքով շատերըս չենք ել հիշում Աստցուն - բայց արաչին իսկ դժվարուտյան դեպքում, արաչին իսկ երեխայի ցավի կամ արցունքի կաթիլ տեսնելուց մեզանից շատերը դզեռքերը վեր են պարզում և անհույս աչքերով երկքում պընտրում այն ինչ չեյն հիշում մինչ այտ

սարսապելին մարդ արարածն է օվ չի հավատում,
չնայած որ չհավատացողն էլ իր հերթին հավատում որ ինք@ չի հավատում ։)

[Arpa]

If God is the creator, then who is the creator of God, and who is the creator of that creator, ad infinitum?

I'm not afraid to say that God does not exist, and if he does, then he should accept skepticism and forgive non-believers at the gates of heaven, if there is such a thing.

Nairi, you devil-ette!
You will gnash your teeth and burn in that “oven” along with Petros Dourian,

Matt.8[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[13] And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.
12իսկ արքայութեան որդիները պիտի ելնեն արտաքին խաւարը. այնտեղ պիտի լինի լաց եւ ատամների կրճտում»։ 13Եւ Յիսուս հարիւրապետին ասաց. «Գնա՛, եւ ինչպէս հաւատացիր, այնպէս թող լինի քեզ»

How dare you? How dare you question the “WORD” from that heap of garbage aka THE BIBLE??!!
Who is that “god” that cut short the lives of Petros Dourian (age 20), Daniel Varuzhan (age 38) and Komitas(age 39)????
(Edited)
http://hayeren.hayas...=petros2.html#4

ՏՐՏՈՒՆՋՔ
Այլ այն աստուծույն՝ շանթերու արմատ՝
Հավելուն զենքերն ու զարդերն հըրատ...
Այլ, ո՛հ, ի՛նչ կըսեմ... շանթահարե՛ զիս,
Աստվա՛ծ, խոկն հսկա, փշրե հյուլեիս՝
Որ ժպրհի ձըգտիլ, սուզիլ խորն երկնի,
Ելնել աստղերու սանդուղքն ահալի...
Ողջո՛ւյն քեզ, աստվա՛ծ, դողդոջ էակին,
Շողին, փըթիթին, ալվույն ու վանկին,
Դու որ ճակատիս վարդն ու բոցն աչերուս
Խըլեցիր՝ թըրթռումս շրթանց՝ թռիչն հոգվույս,
Ամպ տըվիր աչացս, հևք տըվիր սըրտիս,
Ըսիր մահվան դուռն ինձ պիտի ժըպտիս,
Անշուշտ ինձ կյանք մը պահած ես ետքի,
Կյանք մ'անհուն շողի, բույրի, աղոթքի.
Իսկ թե կորնչի պիտի իմ հուսկ շունչ
Հոս մառախուղի մեջ համր անշշունջ,
Այժմեն թո՛ղ անեծք մ'ըլլամ ու կողըդ խըրիմ,
Թո՛ղ հորջորջեմ քեզ. "Աստված ոխերիմ":
Աստուած ոխերիմ?
Vindictive god? Vindictive against whom? Poor little 19 year old Petros who had not even seen the spring of his life?
Can I say this? I know. Our Mods will review this.. (Edited) so called GOD who has taken away the likes of Petros Dourian away from us.
And now, dear Nairi you owe us a “day after“… repentence.
Blame the translational transgressions on me.
Zghjoum/Repentence
(The day after)
Yesterday, when in a cold sweat
I was in a deep dark nap,
And a pair of withered pale roses
Were aflame on my pale cheeks,
Of course, on my forehead
Twinkled a pallid light and
I had a flight of death,
I heard my mother's sobs...
I opened my weary eyes, and
I saw my mother's tears...
Oh! genuine and tender
Those pearls so deceitful!
My mother had a pain immense
I was that dark and black pain...
Ah! There rose a storm in my head...
I let that dark black flood loose...
Oh! Forgive me my God,
I saw tears of my mother's...
(Edited)

Note: Arpa just state your opinion without the vulgar language. You are right you can't say that. Yervant

Edited by Yervant1, 31 March 2008 - 03:15 PM.

[Sip]

Sip jan, I don't think you read Em's article quite well... how about read it one more time!!! all she said is it's stupid to sit down and pray knowing there is a way out of it...

I think I actually understood it pretty well that was exactly my point. Those people are saying it's their faith to pray and not seek medical help. She says it's stupid then asks for others not to judge her beliefs. Why is one base-less belief better than another? If we believe in God enough that we want to pray to Him, then why should we not respect people who believe in God even more and want to pray to Him even more (instead of seeing a doctor for example)?

If you are going to say simply praying is not as harmful as not going to the doctor, I will argue that in the long run, praying and then going to the doctor is MORE harmful because at least in the other case, natural selection takes care of the problem

[MosJan]

Sip hima el Anhhavat es ??

Bayts yete Em & Ashot@ Canadayits lineyin k@havatayir che

[Ashot]

Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? try brother, then you might start believing in "something"... unless you could care less what happens after death!!!

Here is my argument, towards those, how shall we say, foolish people that pray and not do anything about it, first of all Sip jan, what I believe is they should have taken the kid to the doctors for medical treatment, then start praying for everything to be successful, not sit at home and pray for a miracle, cause it ain't happening!!! but then again why am I even trying to prove a point with you brother, anyways you don't believe in any of it!!! you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen... and you wouldn't even have to pray for anything to be well because you just don't believe in it!!! - am I right?

[Harut]

Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? try brother, then you might start believing in "something"... unless you could care less what happens after death!!!

Here is my argument, towards those, how shall we say, foolish people that pray and not do anything about it, first of all Sip jan, what I believe is they should have taken the kid to the doctors for medical treatment, then start praying for everything to be successful, not sit at home and pray for a miracle, cause it ain't happening!!! but then again why am I even trying to prove a point with you brother, anyways you don't believe in any of it!!! you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen... and you wouldn't even have to pray for anything to be well because you just don't believe in it!!! - am I right?

mi patarr jijvi ker...

[Harut]

Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death? try brother, then you might start believing in "something"... unless you could care less what happens after death!!!

Here is my argument, towards those, how shall we say, foolish people that pray and not do anything about it, first of all Sip jan, what I believe is they should have taken the kid to the doctors for medical treatment, then start praying for everything to be successful, not sit at home and pray for a miracle, cause it ain't happening!!! but then again why am I even trying to prove a point with you brother, anyways you don't believe in any of it!!! you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen... and you wouldn't even have to pray for anything to be well because you just don't believe in it!!! - am I right?

no, you are not... because this "you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen..." sounds more like something the "believer" would do (not the really stupid one like in the article of course)... oh, and plus pray...
the non-believer (the smart one of course) would do everything humanly possible to save the kid... such as fight to get the best doctor, provide the best treatment... understand the details of the situation and have an action plan (which doesn't include praying) (such as backup doctors, 3rd party opinions, plan of treatments, questioning and understanding each treatment, obtaining minut-by-minut news of the situation, etc.) and don't leave it upto docotor's and god's hands to solve everything...

[Ashot]

Harut - becoming hostile -

Do you really think that being a believer I would take my kid to the doctors and just abandom him there and start praying? do you really think that being a believer I am as stupid as you present me to be? don't you think that it's within every person to be smart not within a religion or beliefs? are you actually telling me and everyone else that believes in god are not as smart as you?

you just proved how smart you are buddy... nothing more to tell you!!!

[Harut]

Harut - becoming hostile -

Do you really think that being a believer I would take my kid to the doctors and just abandom him there and start praying? do you really think that being a believer I am as stupid as you present me to be? don't you think that it's within every person to be smart not within a religion or beliefs? are you actually telling me and everyone else that believes in god are not as smart as you?

you just proved how smart you are buddy... nothing more to tell you!!!

hm... i don't know how you arrived to those conclusions (that i'm becoming hostile, that i think you would abandon your kid, that i present you to be stupid, that i'm tell that i'm smart, that i'm telling believers are not as smart as i am), but anyways...

[nairi]

http://hayeren.hayas...=petros2.html#4

ՏՐՏՈՒՆՋՔ

It always amazes me how many words Armenian has for "lament." Even Dourian seems to suggest that there are people who don't "cry"; or, in any case, don't have a designated "weeper" like the Armenians:

Կըլլան մարդիկ, որ լացող մը չունին, (K@llan mardik, vor latsogh m@ chunin)

(I haven't tested my fonts since the last upgrade, so bear with me if you see question marks)

Thanks for introducing me to this poem, Arpa. I should get down to reading more Dourian..

[Arpa]

I think I actually understood it pretty well that was exactly my point. Those people are saying it's their faith to pray and not seek medical help. She says it's stupid then asks for others not to judge her beliefs. Why is one base-less belief better than another? If we believe in God enough that we want to pray to Him, then why should we not respect people who believe in God even more and want to pray to Him even more (instead of seeing a doctor for example)?

If you are going to say simply praying is not as harmful as not going to the doctor, I will argue that in the long run, praying and then going to the doctor is MORE harmful because at least in the other case, natural selection takes care of the problem

Johannes knows what this means. In Armenian we call it ճակատագիր/destiny Կամք Աստուծոյ.
In Arabic “Min Allah”, literally “From God”, I.e. the Will of God.
I know first hand of an incident when the surgeon had opened the abdomen of this Arab chieftain and asked for saline to wash off the blood and debris. His assistant, who probably did not know the difference, handed him a bottle of sulfuric acid, and he poured it .
The verdict?
“Min Allah/God’s Will”.
What does God have to do with human error? Remember? “To err is human”?
If a stupid parent would rather “pray” and summon the “shaman”, the witch doctor, a priest to recite the Narek** rather than the physician/pzhishk/բժիշկ !!!???
After all. Who “created” the art and science of medicine/բժշկում? The devil?
** Do you know what "narot/նարոտ means, as in "narot kaper e tsaren ter papan/Նարոտ կապեր է ծարէն Տէր Պապան"? Go to Geghart and see that tree with all the "narot"s hanging.
Do I believe in mumbo jumbo magic? I can look back and see that I questioned it even as far back as when I was five years old.

Edited by Arpa, 31 March 2008 - 07:02 PM.

[Ashot]

"you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen..." sounds more like something the "believer" would do

the non-believer (the smart one of course) would do everything humanly possible to save the kid

and don't leave it upto docotor's and god's hands to solve everything...

Sounds more then enough for me!!!

[Zara]

no, you are not... because this "you believe that they should just take the kid to the doctors for the treatment and sit down relaxed, thinking it's either gonna get better or worse, not even worrying about it, cause you know what must happen will happen..." sounds more like something the "believer" would do (not the really stupid one like in the article of course)... oh, and plus pray...
the non-believer (the smart one of course) would do everything humanly possible to save the kid... such as fight to get the best doctor, provide the best treatment... understand the details of the situation and have an action plan (which doesn't include praying) (such as backup doctors, 3rd party opinions, plan of treatments, questioning and understanding each treatment, obtaining minut-by-minut news of the situation, etc.) and don't leave it upto docotor's and god's hands to solve everything...

I've learned the hard way that hoping or wishing for the best when there is nothing else that you can humanly do in a situation can end up crushing you and your spirits. There's no point in fretting over something you have no control over anymore. I don't hope, pray, or believe in anything when there is a situation where you have no control left. Doing as much as you can is common sense for someone that actually cares, which most people do, but praying, hoping and worrying seem pointless.

[Sip]

Bayts yete Em & Ashot@ Canadayits lineyin k@havatayir che

Esa yerku dari a aghotum em konyaki yev khorovatsi hamar. Verje mi or dalu a Astvats e. Du spas ... ke tesnes.

[Sip]

Sip... is there anything that you believe in? explain me something, you don't believe in anything whatsoever, then where did we come from? and where will we end up after death? have you ever thought of this? have you ever really sat down and think what happens after death?

Of course I believe in some things. I believe if I put raw meat on the fire, it will be cooked and ready to eat in a matter of minutes. It is a hypothesis that that has been tested by myself and many others (ask Mosjan) many many times and it has never failed. So I believe in the ability of fire to cook raw meat. Could it perhaps be God that is causing the meat to cook? Sure. But what reason is there to believe it?

Where are we coming from ... where are we going ... what is after death etc etc ... I do NOT know. That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it and it doesn't mean I am stupid. I just don't know.

[Ashot]

Lav lav - ekeq sents asenq yev batsatrvenq... Everyone has their own beliefs and their own understanding of things around!!! Let's not make a fight in this topic, because if we do the mods would never permit this discussion!!!

Here is the interesting part of it - I have witnessed 4 deaths, 2 of them murder, 2 accidents... yet on top of that I have witnessed a miracle, which I can certainly say I do strongly believe in!

If it is interesting for you to know let me know I am open to tell the story!

But then again, being a believer does not make me any less human or any less smart, as Harut said the things that a non believer would do, I would do the same if not more, therefore it is not the religion that makes us different, it's how much you control yourself, rather then let others control you!!!