55 replies to this topic

[Maral]

Tantig, do whatever makes you happy.

akh if only more people were as smart as you

[Armat]

I am very comfortable of being worthless. Too much burden, weight upon self. I seek to unburden, unwind, and undo everything superficial.

[Anoushik]

Do we as individuals have inherent self-worth or must we earn it? If we must earn it than is it through the impact we have on others or through our accomplishments for ourselves.

If a person truly respects himself he will also respect other people. It's this that reflects a person's worth. A person is also highly regarded if he lives by the belief of treating others like he wants to be treated. Of course, one needs to be a person of strong character and have confidence in himself (therefore I said that one needs to respect himself first and foremost).

But I don't think that a person is born with a strong character. (Yes, genes can play a role in this but not so much.) I think a person's character is shaped by his environment, most importantly by his parents. His parents, in turn, have to respect themselves. It's a continous cycle. Of course, there can be exceptions.

[Anoushik]

I am very comfortable of being worthless. Too much burden, weight upon self. I seek to unburden, unwind, and undo everything superficial.

How can a person's worth be superficial? Or are you just talking about the kind of worth measured by wealth?

[Harut]

Մարդ մարդով է Մարդ:
Մարդս Մարդ լինի:

[Armat]

How can a person's worth be superficial? Or are you just talking about the kind of worth measured by wealth?

I was hinting in the direction of vanity. "You" get educated,read about gods,read about Karma,"you" think you are special on and on and one day if ever you get wise you'll get rid of all that garbage and become one with your creator.
Self worth is essentially an extension of the ego, which according to all major religion traditions is a hindrance, a superficial thing. That which separates you from me is a superficial thing. There is no real “I” no real ego. Self worth therefore is superficial.

Edited by Armat, 28 August 2004 - 08:44 AM.

[Sasun]

Good answer Armat!

In my eyes, ones worth is determined by his/her degree of unselfishness.

[gevo27]

Do we as individuals have inherent self-worth or must we earn it? If we must earn it than is it through the impact we have on others or through our accomplishments for ourselves. We often hear the phrase, “they must earn my respect,” so in essence the only way we gain that worth is through impressing others? That would defy the concept that everyone is special, because unless you prove your worth you are insignificant.

Any one person who is good is worth every other person. if that doesnt make sense, read the parables of Jesus, and it will.

Anileve, have u ever read the Bible, i dont meant o be offensive or any such thing, just that, these questions are easily answered and (understaood or not and to waht degree) life is in some ways easier to comprehend... not easier to live.. infact quite the contrary.
Impressing others is a great ellusion as the road to self worth, it makes no sense whatsoever, why base your worth on someone elses opinion?

[THOTH]

...ones worth is determined by his/her degree of unselfishness.

Along these lines - to a great degree - IMO - is that ones "worth" is what one does/means for others...for their family, their friends, people that they encounter/come accross, their community, their nation, their world....doesn't neccesarily mean one has to be unselfish per se - but one must not be purely selfih - one must be able to do things for others and to be meaningful to others...(in particular for one's children of course - the utimate when it comes to determining one's worth [to others] - as here is certainly responsibility of others...)....

[Anileve]

Good answer Armat!

In my eyes, ones worth is determined by his/her degree of unselfishness.

Altruism doesn't exist, it's an illusion created by humans to fool themselves into believing in false morality to feel better about themselves. However, there is a degree of selfishness. I often tell people that if they don't recognize their own worth no one else will. One can believe in his worth even if he does nothing but lay on the couch and watch TV all day, however it is equivalent to zero if the society doesn't consider it as a "worthwhile" activity. As Armat mentioned, we are all worthless, but somehow we are lead to believe that certain things establish the "worth" over others, but who assigned them as the authority on deciding the worth?

We are worthless beings, the only way we gain our validity is in our mind. People only care about their own benefit, if you have become a worthy individual according to what some of you have noted, it is by sacrificing something for the other or by doing something "good" for someone else, in essence saying that only by someone else gaining a profit from you, you become worthy. So it is really up to the society to establish this worth. Very confusing shyt.

[Anileve]

Any one person who is good is worth every other person. if that doesnt make sense, read the parables of Jesus, and it will.

Anileve, have u ever read the Bible, i dont meant o be offensive or any such thing, just that, these questions are easily answered and (understaood or not and to waht degree) life is in some ways easier to comprehend... not easier to live.. infact quite the contrary.
Impressing others is a great ellusion as the road to self worth, it makes no sense whatsoever, why base your worth on someone elses opinion?

I've read the bible gevo. The only thing I've learned in terms of worth is that it's decided when you reach the pearly gates. I don't like living for the indefinite future, so the bible to me is really worthless when it comes to exposing the mystery of "worth". I have to understand the world I live in now before I fly with the angels and play elevator music on a lyre in a world which exists in some romantic notion of a religious mind.

[Sasun]

Altruism doesn't exist, it's an illusion created by humans to fool themselves into believing in false morality to feel better about themselves.

Did you read this thread? (the beginning part discussion between Anoushik and myself) http://hyeforum.com/...topic=9660&st=0

However, there is a degree of selfishness.

If there is a degree of selfishness then there is a degree of unselfishness too.

So it is really up to the society to establish this worth.

I believe society is divided on the question of people's worth. Part of society gives worth to unselfish people such as heros, volunteers, those who do unselfish things for others and in essence serve others (not necessarily themselves), part of society gives worth to people who make good families, are able to feed and raise them properly and educate good children and maintain the traditions of the society, part of society gives worth to selfish people who are able to quickly get rich or smartly defraud others thus serving others and example of success, part of society gives worth to its intellectuals, artists, geniuses, people of non-material accomplishments, and another part of society does not care about giving worth to anyone, they prefer to attend to their elementary needs and not to bother with questions like evaluating people.

Edited by Sasun, 30 August 2004 - 07:50 PM.

[gevo27]

I've read the bible gevo. The only thing I've learned in terms of worth is that it's decided when you reach the pearly gates. I don't like living for the indefinite future, so the bible to me is really worthless when it comes to exposing the mystery of "worth".  I have to understand the world I live in now before I fly with the angels and play elevator music on a lyre in a world which exists in some romantic notion of a religious mind.

HAHA.. ok, well thats is not what i meant at all. And, its not the pearly gates that determine our self worth. It is merely, and simply as i see it, how we live our lives. But, we are all also very equal, there is a balance. We cannot see the way God sees things, he is devine, but through his word we see that we are all worth the same, until or until we change that, which is where free will comes in....

[Anileve]

Did you read this thread? (the beginning part discussion between Anoushik and myself) http://hyeforum.com/...topic=9660&st=0

If there is a degree of selfishness then there is a degree of unselfishness too.

A very interesting thread. How can there be a degree of something which cannot exist? That's an impossibility. The mere fact that you are breathing oxygen is a selfish act since it speaks of a desire to survive. That on itself eliminates the possibility of altruism existing. None of our acts are selfless, throwing yourself into a fire to save your child is an act of selfishness, because at the moment you feel pain for the fellow human being there is an instant desire to alleviate that pain, for that moment to feel good about yourself that you have done something so "divine", thus it is to satisfy your own desire. Would you give up your life to save a criminal in a burning fire, who murdered a few grandmothers? No, because you wouldn't feel pity or compassion, your desires wouldn't need to be quenched. Thus it is still a selfish act.

[Sasun]

A very interesting thread. How can there be a degree of something which cannot exist? That's an impossibility. The mere fact that you are breathing oxygen is a selfish act since it speaks of a desire to survive.  That on itself eliminates the possibility of altruism existing. None of our acts are selfless, throwing yourself into a fire to save your child is an act of selfishness, because at the moment you feel pain for the fellow human being there is an instant desire to alleviate that pain, for that moment to feel good about yourself that you have done something so "divine", thus it is to satisfy your own desire. Would you give up your life to save a criminal in a burning fire, who murdered a few grandmothers? No, because you wouldn't feel pity or compassion, your desires wouldn't need to be quenched. Thus it is still a selfish act.

I think I know what you mean. First of all, I didn't say that one can be absolutely altruistic save a few perfections like Jesus.
Second of all, you are saying that the willingness to do self-sacrifice is a selfish act to satisfy ones desire to feel good. I don't think it is right to mix up diametrically opposite things. Desire is to fulfill ones egoistic needs, this is what we all do most of the time. There is always either sense enjoyment, material benefit, or gaining name and fame as a motivation in our acts. But doing good to others may often cause pains and go against ones ego and not bring any sort of benefits, at the same time the person may feel spiritually good because he/she is doing the right thing, the moral thing, his/her duty. And no, feeling compassion is not desire. A true compassionate person would equally feel compassion to the burning criminal as to the burning innocent person, while an ordinary person would feel satisfied because partly his desire to see a guilty person burning would be fulfilled and partly because it would seem just thinking impartially.

I would not like to confuse doing good and satsifying ones desires together, they are quite the opposite. Just look around, how come 99% of people, 99% of the time is satisfying their selfish desires rather than doing good to others? If what you are saying is true and doing good is the same thing as satisfying desires then we would perhaps see 50% of people doing good 50% of the time.

[Harut]

self worth eh... a funny thing...

today i'm worthless mat on a dirty ground when i look right and a hero with great confidence when i look left.

[Anileve]

But doing good to others may often cause pains and go against ones ego and not bring any sort of benefits, at the same time the person may feel spiritually good because he/she is doing the right thing, the moral thing, his/her duty.

What do you have to say about massochists?

Desires can be positive or negative, but they are all reduced to self-gratification. It's all about the value you place on your desires. The joy of helping someone can surpass the pain one may feel as a result, it's sort of deductive thinking. In other words: Which might be of greater benefit to you? Nothing has value on its own, everything is worthless unless you assign a value to it. If some trashy romance novel is of no benefit to you, you will consider it worthless. Someone else might find it worthy. The majority in the society decide the value of something which is publically considered a moral stratification. Once again everything is worthless unless something exteriorly assigns value to it. In religion it is a reliance on the Bible which dictates what is to be valued. It's easier to consider that you are doing something worthy rather than to establish your own merits, there is a fear that if such standards are not defined people will resort to a severe degree of selfishness which can be destructive to a human race as a whole. Thus an illusion of uneslfishness and worth is born to convince people to follow a certain order, although as a core to simply eliminate the fear that they are insignificant.

[Anileve]

self worth eh... a funny thing...

today i'm worthless mat on a dirty ground when i look right and a hero with great confidence when i look left.

Precisely. You have been quite poetic lately Harut.

[Harut]

today i'm worthless mat on a dirty ground

Precisely.

i didn't know you too had this kind of an impression of me.

[Anileve]

i didn't know you too had this kind of an impression of me.

If you have assigned yourself such value who am I to argue with it?

BTW: Why can't you be a worthless mat on a marble ground?

Edited by anileve, 30 August 2004 - 10:25 PM.