69 replies to this topic

[MJ]

Hovsep,

The issue is that you have "gone on and on and have departed too far." The question is, "could you come back?"

[Twilight Bark]

One should care about origins the way one should be curious about the origins of one's family. Looking into the origins in search of past glories or nobility is silly and often repugnant. However, I am not about to let the silly gold-diggers-in-history to detract from why I care about where we came from. It is a human, primal desire, and I am also not about to abandon it in order to be a "cool" man of the times.

What does your mother say about all this?

I am glad we are casting the discussion in terms of family. You can't choose your mother. That means you can't choose your brother.

Those that do not view Armenia (the real one) as their motherland have already done the refusing. You don't need to. In fact I would go after "converting" his kids, after a polite smile to the father. You see, I don't want to lose any member of my family, present or future.

You can't choose what you are born into. Besides, the ones that you don't like appear to have done all the dirty work of distancing themselves. That hardly requires an active rejection on your part. However, our mother could work on making the family abode more attractive.

Talk all you want until the cows come home, MJ. The said traits are common. And one trait that is very common, and problematic, is also central to your outlook on the issue.

Yes, MJ. They are what they are. And there are understandable reasons behind their dumb attitudes. But you can't scold them into the "right" way of thinking. You have a much better chance of charming them into it. The only thing that can be done is to make Armenia a compelling magnet. This means the "unfair" burden falls on the shoulders of those who do have the desired attitude. Look at any great nation, and it is formed by a relative few by winning over the rest. The focus should be on winning people over, not cutting them off.

We have enough negatives in our culture: Don't do this! Don't do that! Ooo, shame, shame shame! Sometimes it seems that we base our traditions and outlook on not doing things.

[joseph]

MJ cant you see you are coming out of the closet , you start to sound like Hagarag " good luck " .
When I was in school we use to have a Headmaster God bless his sole with a bamboo cane in his hand , he use to tell us how to behave or even how to think , he alwayes waved his cane while talking to us , looks like he is back .
TB you spoke well .

[THOTH]

MJ - great post - much to think on.

TB - also many good points (particualry concerning the points of Armenians emerging from long/total conquest/subjugation...as Armenians - and that ALL Armenians have been affected by Ottoman legacy - not just Western Armenians...)

I agree with Boghos. I don't think his point was at all to create/perpetuate some/any divide among Armenians by recognizing/surfacing/examining the Ottoman legacy.

Frankly - I think most Armenians reject this Ottoman legacy - conciously or otherwise - in part perhaps because in some ways it makes it more difficult to see the Turk as "other"...

And TB - not sure how we move beyond...certainly we can in terms of (many) attitude(s) (the negative - many attitudes/behaviors I think - centering around distrust/persecution complex/lowered self-image ...and much more...). But much is ingrained (to the pont where we might/do not even recognize)..and then there is the question - do we need to reject? Is not some "good"/worth keeping - even being proud of - etc? I think so....perhaps...

Cousin/brother issue - LOL. Not all brothers get along well you know...sometimes they even come to blows & worse...common mother or not...

And like Armenians who have emerged from the Ottoman legacy - I too cannot help/control my origin nor my assimilation (to a degree)...nor the fact that I am not "just" Armenian...(some might say "even" - LOL)

And MJ - I do appreciate - very much so - (your view on) the importance (etc/on many levels) of Armenia to (all) Armenians...

...why are "we" failing so? (context - "your"/our Armenia...) (I'm sure we have seen this as a thread title with all of the usual comentary - (lack of) unity/vision/leadership etc etc - but still no real solution (even improvement?) in sight...

Does it all come back to this "brother" thing? Or is it not this at all? Or is it this & more....

[MJ]

Hovsep,

Like I have told once, if I am giving you aparence of coming out of the closet, it must be your closet we are talking about.

Edit: Appearance

[ January 22, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

[MJ]

I came home late last night. Now I am waiting for the cows to come home. Later, I willl decide TB or not TB. Then we'll go from there.

[MJ]

Fine. What do you want me to do about it?

She cannot speak - she is not feeling well.

Your gesture of politeness is very charming. However, what's the purpose of the proposed reunion?

If I am born into something, it doesn't meen I am doomed to it, right? Besides, why is it that it is always someone else that has to do something and it is someone else's fault?

Would you care to say what you are trying to say more elaborately?

Winning them over for what?

Finally, would you tell me, please, what is that you are arguing with me about in this thread?

[Twilight Bark]

Dear MJ,

I may agree with you about many tangible issues, such as the need to identify closely with the real Armenia that exists today. However, I vigorously disagree with the way you are defining our nation, or you idea of rebuilding it. Deny as you may, it is quite clear that you view the Armenian nation as Armenia Inc. United States can be viewed in those terms, and so can many Western European countries. Many of them can also be viewed as reformed syndicates of organized crime. But what do we care. Despite your heroic efforts to the contrary, Armenia and Armenians can be sensibly described only in the terms and concepts of a family. I am happy with that, and you are not. That is our crucial difference.

Now if the "nucleus" that you want to keep (after shedding the flab that most of the diaspora represents in your eyes) is in fact a lean, mean fighting machine that will accomplish great world-class ideals, I might be open to your version of iconoclasm. But there is no such nucleus, as far as I can see.

You ask "winning them over for what?". The simple act of asking that question summarizes our difference. Its answer is in the first paragraph. And it won't satisfy you, presumably because it cannot be explained in the logic of an "Anglo-Saxon" corporation. Perhaps you can relate to the fact that trying to win them over itself involves creating something positive and compelling. I am not talking about pandering to the stupid ideas of "revolutionary" dinosaurs. I am talking about a healthy competition between Armenia and the host countries for the "souls" of the diasporans. If you think we should not be in the running, the lean, mean nucleus must be sleeping so deep that it might as well be dead.

So dear MJ, we have an "irreconcilable difference". However, that does not mean I wish you were not in the Armenian family. To the contrary, you make a very interesting and worthwhile contribution to my idea of Armenian family.

Regards,
TB

[MJ]

Dear TB,

“Before we formalize or divorce due to irreconcilable differences,” let’s try to see few things in perspective.

I have never defined “our nation.” It will take quite some time for “our nation” to define and build itself (not rebuild). History has never given us that chance in the past and we are yet to become a nation.

You can label my “vision” of Armenia with a term Inc all you want. That’s fine with me. I prefer that one to the one which would be called Perpetual Whining Loser Perennially Sorry for Herself.

As far as dysfunctional families go, I think it is better not to form such families. Family is not a biological outcome. Family is a function. The reason you are happy with your perception of Armenians may be due to the fact that it is a comfortable refuge, it is easy and does not obligate one to anything and does not burden one – sort of “do not shake me. I have barely found my comfort.”

The allegation on “reformed syndicates of organized crime” is immaterial for this conversation, so I will not go into it. But the environment Armenia is in (and will be), obligates her to be a “lean mean machine.” To a certain degree, it is a one. As far as the “nucleus” is concerned, maybe it doesn’t exist or maybe you haven’t even looked for it, but what is the moral of your statement?

My WASP upbringing ( ) prevents me from seeing any outlook for “healthy competition” between the family and corporations. Competition is possible amongst the competitive parties. If one dares to see Armenian history through the eyes which have the courage to look at the truth, our “family” has always been on the losing side of history even way before the formation of “corporations.”

And thank you for allocating a spot for me in your “family.”

Have to run.

[Twilight Bark]

Whatever. I do describe Armenians as a "tribe". Where we have been stuck forever is right between "tribe" and "nation". We do have to move on the next step, on that we agree.

Somewhere between a self-legitimizing organized crime syndicate and a whining loser is a dignified, strong Armenia and Armenians, that is a lot closer to being a "family" rather than a "corporation". The latter is no basis for a nation. It may be good for a municipality or even a city. Not a nation.

Dysfunctional, mysfunctional. It is our family, and it is our duty to fix it. You can always leave the family and join another one that will take you. And there are plenty of them apparently.

Utter nonsense. I arrive at my notion as a result of eliminating all other self-consistent and meaningful alternatives for bothering with a nation. (Edit: I meant to say "I arrive at my notion of a nation that is worth bothering with after eliminating all other alternatives on the basis of self-consistency, sustainability and meaningfulness. ". Really )
(Addendum: I am hardly comfortable with the current shape we are in. In fact, it bothers the hell out of me. However, it never occurred to me to advocate the distillation of a lean and mean micro-nation from our tribe. I guess I am neither bold nor imaginative enough. )

It is not an allegation; it is a "poetic" and yet accurate description of exactly what they have been. And as far as emulating or becoming a part of (read: assimilate into) them, it is more relevant than most of the other nonsense we are mumbling about. But I am with you in your reluctance to hyperventilate about it. They are what they are.

Well then, what is preventing our "lean, mean machine" from competing for the souls of its sons and daughters? It either has a capable nucleus that will be left bare after the flab is gone, or it doesn't. Is it going to wake up after the flab is gone? It is good for only "negative" things such as "fighting" the mean neighbors? "We don't do positive" huh? Not macho enough I suppose.

If you cannot claim the souls of your sons and daughters, and do not have the sensitivity to weep for the lost ones, what is it that your lean, mean distillate of a nation good for? Picking a fight? Is that going to be our "core competence"?

Any time.

I have been "running" as we "speak"!

[ January 22, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[564312]

Armenianess? Then why so many Armenians don’t speak Armenian and so many Non-Armenians want to learn Armenian?

[MJ]

TB,

From what I gather, we have reached a point that repeating our monologs (though addresssed to each other) on this subject doesn't promis any meaningful outcome and would be rather repetitive.

There is very little that you say on the subject makes practial sense to me.

Do, I will give myself the liberty of not repeating myself.

[Twilight Bark]

Yes. That is another way of saying "we have irreconcilable differences".

Really? As far as I can make sense of it, your idea is to do absolutely nothing to attract our "misguided" to a productive way of thinking, hope that they will assimilate away in their dreamland, and make sure that our little Prussia-in-Caucasus, which can only support 3 million people, does not overflow with too many Armenians. And as luck has it, the surplus (undesirable) Armenians are exactly the right number to keep the population of our Prussia-in-Caucasus at 3 million. I must admit what you say makes no "practical sense" to me either. I do understand the logistical convenience of doing absolutely nothing though. Your plan has considerably greater chance of succeeding than any pedestrian ideas I might have, as it works with no effort on our part. What can I say MJ, I hope it would be good for Armenia and Armenians.

Deal.

[khodja]

TWILIGHT BARK,

Just follow MJ's post over the months and you will get a sense of his disposition. You all know that I am an angry man by now. With him you can see that he is total cynical. He has an extremely narrow-minded view of what an Armenain should be. Those who do not fit his image of an Armenian, he immediately dismisses. "Eencho ge harkes ays marteh?"

[MJ]

TB,

We can "divorce" but we don't have to lose our dignity, meanwhile. So that to be clear what I am hinting at, I have made my comment about "3 million" a while ago. You have not responded then. Now, you are bringing my comment into our discussion in an out of the context manner. This is called chip-on-the-shoulder-cowardice.

There is no place for such qualities in my family.

[Twilight Bark]

It seems we have different definitions of what constitutes dignity.

About the 3 million. This is exactly an example of the context in which it is relevant and rounds out your outlook. Declaring it out of context does not make it so. As far as chips on shoulders, I can certainly see one or two on yours. As for mine, if they exist, they do so out of compassion and inclusivity; not out of snobbery and exclusivity. As for cowardice, I think we agree that being "heroic" at the expense of others is evil. Think about that, and see if you are being consistent with that conviction.

Finally, when I say "irreconcilable difference", I don't have a "divorce" in my mind, dignified or otherwise. Irreconcilable difference means irreconcilable difference. It doesn't mean we should consider each other "estranged" for heavens' sake. Lighten up. You used to be good at agreeing to disagree. What happened?

[MJ]

OK. Now we can discuss what the definition of dignity is…

So let’s talk about the 3 million and my or your outlook, for example.

I have said that Armenia’s infrastructure (and capacity) supports about 3 million population. I have also said it can be upgraded some but not significantly. If you have any issues with this statement and disagree, especially if you have any solutions in your mind other than a morph and superficial declarations on “let’s love each other and be family,” be professional and dignified enough to express your disagreements in a proper context. And talking about inclusivity, come out of your shell of defense and be included – all opportunities to be included have been provided - if nowhere else, then in this forum… Speaking of which, how many time in the 1.5 years of your existence in this forum you have engaged in the discussions on Armenia? But how many times have you engaged on subjects on Turkey and Turks in contrast? Has someone stood on your way and denied you access to the “family” as you define it? Has ever someone denied you access to anything that you now shamelessly ventilate on the subject of exclusivity? If you, due to your cowardice, not having the courage to face the bitterness of the reality, have decided to exclude yourself, and just come-in with an “hoopla” to tell Ali Suit “get out of here,” who do you blame for it?

If you cannot accept just some elementary facts which may “scratch” your imaginary shell of defense, why is it the fault of my “snobbery and exclusivity?” Even if you can’t accept some facts, rather than the chip-on-the-shoulder posture you can layout your arguments – if you have any.

Now if there are chips on my shoulder, too bad for me. It certainly is not good and I will work on it. However, if there are chips on your shoulder, don’t expect me to carry them.

Finally, go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it again, if you please. Then, with a better head, try to analyze again if I have said anything in this thread that has implied me excluding you. Then, if you have the courage, think again (if you wish) if there is anyone other than yourself who has attempted or can exclude you.

During my entire presence in this forum and elsewhere, I have claimed that Armenia belongs to them and Armenians are those who claim ownership of Armenia. This is a very low threshold. There cannot be anything more inclusive that is not a mockery. If you feel excluded after this, it tells me only one thing - you are a coward to assume the liabilities which come with it. Then who is the snob amongst us?

Now about agreeing or disagreeing. I have never made a deal “to agree or to disagree” with you or anyone else. I am not driven by “agreements or disagreements” nor driven by a desire to throw a “hoopla,” or to look “smarter than you are.” If I have something to say, I come forward and I say it. If I have an issue in my mind that I want to share, I come forward and I do it. I act, I don’t react. And certainly, I don’t wait for someone to send me an invitation to be “included.” I have included myself. Have you?

[Twilight Bark]

This is not, and has never been about me. And stop making it about yourself.

This is not about my panic about being excluded. If you had a clear head, you would have noticed that.

You are the one talking about excluding me. Certainly not me. The thought has not even occurred to me. Thanks for pointing it out as a possibility. Or is that a threat?

Yes. I now declare that whoever wants to give me a big fat check is more than welcome to do so. I am waiting. What? You want some inducement? The audacity of it all. Hmph...

Again, I wasn't talking about myself at all. However, thanks for baring your frustrations about me. It seems that all it takes is a little scratch at the surface. In my fairyland, MJ, some people defend positions out of principle, and try to convert people to that way of thinking even though it has no relationship whatsoever with their personal stakes. Hard to square with a "strictly rational" mind perhaps? Pity.

Oh my. You are bringing my house of cards. All this time I fooled myself and others that I was a hero. Who cares if I am coward or a hero? I am who I am, and the only part of my personality I am willing to share publicly is my ideas, not my CV or other heroic accomplishments or lack thereof.

True. I do snob the snobs. I do it whenever I can, with pleasure. And they deserve it. Are you one of them? It's your call.

Really? You could've fooled me. And there is nothing particularly wrong with these things either. As for smartness, it's what you do with it, not whether you had good luck with the lottery at the moment of your conception. No need to obsess over it.

I was under the impression that you can't tolerate me saying what I had to say. What with the hysteric reaction and all.

Good for you. That makes one. Now work on including others, rather than turning them off.

I never needed active including. I belonged from the moment my ears heard the oror of my mother and father. You are the one grappling with the issue, not me.

[MJ]

Ping-pong, ping-pong, ping-pong...

[khodja]

TWILIGHT BARK,

Ays esheen hede eencho ge khosis?