92 replies to this topic

[Arpa]

Phobia Armeniaca.

No it is not a fruit or anything. Prunus Armeniaca is. It is Apricot.
Phobia Armeniaca means Armenian Fear, and sometimes depending on the context it may also mean Armenian Hatred.
Does that mean we are cowards? You be the judge!
There have been many debates about intermarriage, assimilation and alienation on this forum. Nothing new. This debate may as well go all the way to time of Haik and Ara. It has not changed an iota. The outcome is always; Armenians better not marry otars, not get assimilated. FEAR!!! Understandable, if one considers what cowards we are. How we talk from a position of weakness rather than a position of strength. BTW,. there are those among us that claim Armenians created the world and that we make it spin around the sun. Is that why Armenians don't have to screw a light bulb in as they can just stand still and let the spinning globe do the job?!! However, we must also make sure that the world spins clockwise otherwise the light bulb will be unscrewed.

I will make this as succinct as possible.

Many a correspondent here and since the dawn of the universe has expressed fear and concern about intermarriage and every nuance thereof. They are justified . They have a reason to be afraid. After all they seem to know our history. They know that every time we had contact with foreigners we ended up as the losers. When we had intercouse(please look up the definition, it does not necessarily mean serayin haraberuyun, often just haraberutyun). When we had to do with the Persians no Persian became/converted to Armenian. How many Armenians became Persian? When we had to do with the Greeks no Greek became Armenian. How many Armenians became Greks? When we had intercourse with the Byzantines how of them became Armenian? How many Armenians became Byzantine? (You may find a list of Byzantine Emperors of Armenian ancestry). How many Romans converted to Armenian? How many Arabs thought it was better to be an Armenian? The list goes on. Did I leave anybody out? Oh, yes, I did. How many Turks embraced Armenianism? How many visa versa?

WHY???

As promised, I will only pose the questions and let our ethnologists and philosophers furnish the answer.
Why is an itremarriage considered a net loss rather than a gain?
Have we not heard the old adage when a father of the bride says; "I have not lost a daughter, I have gained a son (in law)?
When is the last time an otar spouse of an Armenian became an Armenian, rather than the Armenian spouse pushed out and forced to join the ranks of his/her otar spouse?
Why?
When is the last time we introduced our otar spouse even after 50 years of marriage as an Armenian and not "meet Sheila/Sean", he/she is Irish?
When is the last time our institutions wholeheartedly welcomed an otar spouse as "harazat child"?

Why!!!

What are we afraid of?
Why are we constantly speaking from a position of weakness? Fear of losing a daughter/a son rather than gaining a daughter in law or a son?
Why is it always a one way street?

I may know some of the answers, the most stupid of which is "An Armenian is born as such, when we examine Armenian blood under the microscope we will see the big letter A , all others please stay out".

Speaking of phobia , there may be one other people who may desereve the first prize of xenophobia and neither have they grown exponentially even when they may claim to be as ancient as we are if not more. According to some sources there may have been 4 million of us at the beginning of the Christian Era. World populatio has grown 30 fold since then. That means thare should be at least 120 million of us today. Where did the other 112 million go? (Some may cite massacres and genocides as the reason. My question is why were massacred and genocide and not visa versa?) While in the meantime only a handful of Turks came from Central Asia. How many are they now? How many of them were originally Armenian that intermarried (in the broad sense of the word)?

Why do we consider an honor and privilege our ability to speak Turkish while they consider a curse to even refer to us? How many Turks speak Armenian? Why did we learn their language and not visa versa? Od course, Mesrop would turn in his grave if, Aramazt forbid, that we teach our language to our neighbors, after all he composed it to be preserved (as a pickle).
And what if that peckle goes bad?

Waiting for your analyses I will stop here even though I can write volumes about the subject.

[MJ]

Nice silence.

[KGrigory]

Many people have been assimilated under the name of Armenia. The Urartians(Biaini) were not Armenians but they were eventually assimilated. Many Assyrians eventually blended in with the Armenians. For the most part Armenian kings were of foreign decent. The royal line of Artashes ( Artaxiads) had foreign Achaemidian roots. It included Tigran the Great. Also didn't Tigran resettle Greeks and Jews into historical Armenia and they eventually were Armenized. The Arshak(Arsaces) line had Parthian roots and it included Trdat III who converted to Christianity. Even St. Grigor was not Armenian but Parthian. Although we do accept him as an Armenian. His last name was Pehlavi, son of Anak Pehlavi, who by the way murdered Trdat II (Khosrov I), the father of Trdat III the Great. The Armenian Church was always open to people wanting to convert to (Armenian) Christianity some of whom eventually became Armenian. So this intermarriage thing works both ways, Armenians either lose by it or in some cases end up winning. But of course that depends on your definition of winning or losing in those instances.

[sen_Vahan]

"No it is not a fruit or anything. Prunus Armeniaca is. It is Apricot."

Nice introduction

"Phobia Armeniaca means Armenian Fear, and sometimes depending on the context it may also mean Armenian Hatred."

Davay seychas zanovo sozdavat' velosiped

"Does that mean we are cowards? You be the judge!"

What means to be cowards?

"There have been many debates about intermarriage, assimilation and alienation on this forum. Nothing new. This debate may as well go all the way to time of Haik and Ara. It has not changed an iota. "

Simply not true, at least not enough arguments

"The outcome is always; Armenians better not marry otars, not get assimilated. FEAR!!! "

For the nation mainly living outside homeland that's important. No?

"Understandable, if one considers what cowards we are. How we talk from a position of weakness rather than a position of strength."

is that possible because we are weak?

"BTW,. there are those among us that claim Armenians created the world and that we make it spin around the sun. Is that why Armenians don't have to screw a light bulb in as they can just stand still and let the spinning globe do the job?!! However, we must also make sure that the world spins clockwise otherwise the light bulb will be unscrewed."

nice!

"I will make this as succinct as possible."

lets see

"Many a correspondent here and since the dawn of the universe has expressed fear and concern about intermarriage and every nuance thereof. They are justified . They have a reason to be afraid. After all they seem to know our history. They know that every time we had contact with foreigners we ended up as the losers. When we had intercouse(please look up the definition, it does not necessarily mean serayin haraberuyun, often just haraberutyun). When we had to do with the Persians no Persian became/converted to Armenian. How many Armenians became Persian? When we had to do with the Greeks no Greek became Armenian. How many Armenians became Greks? When we had intercourse with the Byzantines how of them became Armenian? How many Armenians became Byzantine? (You may find a list of Byzantine Emperors of Armenian ancestry). How many Romans converted to Armenian? How many Arabs thought it was better to be an Armenian? The list goes on. Did I leave anybody out? Oh, yes, I did. How many Turks embraced Armenianism? How many visa versa?"

Because we are the weak.

WHY???

See above

"As promised, I will only pose the questions and let our ethnologists and philosophers furnish the answer.
Why is an itremarriage considered a net loss rather than a gain?
Have we not heard the old adage when a father of the bride says; "I have not lost a daughter, I have gained a son (in law)?
When is the last time an otar spouse of an Armenian became an Armenian, rather than the Armenian spouse pushed out and forced to join the ranks of his/her otar spouse?"

more that enough examples in Armenia. (many russians, assyrians, greeks became armenians). You cannot assimilate outside your home country but can be only assimilated. It happens to all nations I guess. Except probably jews but i don't know who the hell they are, no home, no definition.

"Why?
When is the last time we introduced our otar spouse even after 50 years of marriage as an Armenian and not "meet Sheila/Sean", he/she is Irish?
When is the last time our institutions wholeheartedly welcomed an otar spouse as "harazat child"?"

Arms are a small nation. Do you want them to grow? Why not to go and recon-st a lot of lands back?

"Why!!!

What are we afraid of?"

Not strong enough.

Probably we need not christianity then but "bazmazek, bazmazek, bazmazek, astzo vordik"(?)

[Sip]

You may notice that I said Juggy should be the one to do that ... since he lives down-unda in Australia, that will not be a problem since I've heard things spin the other way down there.

[gamavor]

Excellent post Arpa!

That same phobia works both ways. Even if one is ready to embrace the Armenian culture (whatever that means), there is a wall, or rather chorus of *******s singing you are odar, you do not qualify.
And the opposite is very true. Many Armenians do not want to "mix" not because they are too concerned about their "blue blood", but because of their inherited inferiority complex.
Two reasons for that. Lack of national self-confidence (I hope Armenia would finally develop some kind of very deadly weapon:)), and low profile and misunderstanding of the Armenian culture, religion and history.
I have encountered many young Armenians here in the States who proudly declare "I'm Armenian!". So far, so good. But when you ask them Why you are Armenian? Holly Silence!

Sorry if that repeats what somebody else said, I just had no time to read all the posts.

[Varduhi]

ARPA

what ever get a life and leave Armenians alone since your not Armenian. If you were I don’t think you would look at your own people the way you do and describe. I feel sorry for you.

How many Turks speak Armenian? Why did we learn their language and not visa versa?

Let me tell you why no otar learned our language because they did not have ability to learn our language, in another word (himar en exel dra hamar el chen karoxatsel sovoren mer lezun) that’s WHY, and just FYI more languages you know more chance of survival you have in this world. Don’t you think its good to know more then one language? some people wish and dream that they could speak more then just one language, I don’t know why you took all that points and looked in a negative ways.

[Rubo]

Fear of assimilation? just do the math and the answer is simple. THEY ARE NOT TOO MANY OF US ARMENIANS-It is not fear but preservation and that should be obvious to every Armenian after the Armenian Genocide. Yeah I can masturbate here intellectually as well but the point is simple to understand, not fear but perseverance. I am getting sick of this tone.

[Harut]

"...
Vorqan lezu gites, aynqan mard es` irav asin,
Bayts vor qo mayr lezun chides` el inch huyses im Masisin:
..."

[Sip]

I have to say I do agree with Rubo here. There is a definite need for "perseverance" (whether driven by fear or not I don't know) if "Armenianness" is to be maintained. I am NOT that well versed in the history of the region, so I can only offer my in**** on the current state of things.

The Armenians' fear of assimilation, at least now, is very justified. With this information and communication revolution that has been taking place in the last 100 years, and the fact that "everything not Armenian" is soooooooo much more than "everything Armenian", I think it's obvious that assimilation is a very definite possibility if not strongly fought against (assuming it is something to fight against ... I'm not arguing for or against). And not just for Armenians, I'd say for any "strongly a minority" culture.

I'm just saying the hatred of mixing and the strong rejection of some for anything in the "everything not Armenian" category, is for me, a very understandable phenomenon.

Before, you could keep things fairly well protected and preserved by physical borders. Holding those borders in place was a difficult task, but at least it was well defined and understood as mandatory, given the objective. Now, with the information age, those physical borders are meaningless as there is a direct path to people's brains! Unless there are STRICT blocks (as so well displayed by Varduhi here), or firewalls as we CS crowd like to call them, minds WILL be influenced by other more "dominant" forces (cultures).

[ December 10, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Sip]

Just realized "i n p u t s" was deemed a bad word and thus censored above. I appologize. It won't happen again.

---
By the way, it took me like 5 minutes but I finally figured it out ... I know this is like the boy who cried wolf but I really didn't mean the other meaning ... I REALLY had no idea. I'm guessing this has happened before though

[ December 10, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Azat]

Arpa, another great post as always. I was shocked to find out that you were a female and not Armenian as two of our newest members have informed me.

Dear Varduhi, I am not sure if I should comment on your post or not. Please reread Arpas post one more time and this time try to understand what he is saying. it is exactly your attitude that is killing our nation and forcing Armenians to seek other nationalities and not Arpas.

So you think that if people don't learn Armenian it is because they are not smart enough to learn it? I guess since I speak Armenian I must be a genius in your eyes. And it is not just the language dear, it is everything. We speak their language, eat their food, sing their songs, and put our babies to sleep with their lullabies.

[TigrannesIII]

Bravo Rubo.

[Boghos]

That Armenians in general are xenophobic there is very little doubt. I just don´t think that there is a connection between that and the fact that we remain a small nation.

Xenophobia is mostly relevant in the diaspora, it is a an exercise in futility. "Persevering" is just postponing the inevitable: disappearance. What is to persevere in real terms ? Marry another Armenian, teach your kids the language ? No. To really persevere is to immigrate to Armenia.

Perhaps what Arpa is refering to is to the lack of warmth that many Armenians tend to demonstrate to odars once they get "too close". It often results in an Armenian getting further away from its roots than otherwise. But this is not the essence of Arpa´s contention, but rather that we as a nation have serious problems in our identity and how we relate to others. Hard to disagree. Paradoxical as it may sound, we have been emerging from this bad dream by being more open, by melting into the various diasporan pots.

We are faced with two choices: either slowly disappearing or moving to Armenia.

[ December 11, 2002, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[MJ]

Isn’t something that has a sole purpose of preservation called parasite?

[Rubo]

Arpa”When is the last time we introduced our otar spouse even after 50 years of marriage as an Armenian and not "meet Sheila/Sean", he/she is Irish?”

Dear Arpa-I apologize if I was harsh on you-My sister in law is married to a Ukrainian for fifty years. He as always has been warmly treated in the family but after all these years he never confused the fact that he was still Ukrainian despite of brainwashing him to think he is an Armenian. I find it highly plausible that your proposition is true, there may be real converts out there but I am yet to meet one.

Boghos I agree with you about moving back to Armenia but let’s face it nobody is packing his or her bags now. As long as our economy is the way it is I don’t expect the lines in front of the US embassy to shorten.

Regards to all

[MJ]

Why are Armenians xenophobic?

[sen_Vahan]

"We are faced with two choices: either slowly disappearing or moving to Armenia."

Right you are, Boghos, and in Armenia we can assimilate but not be ass-ed. Or the other way is to accept judaism which i think Arpa would not be happy to do neither would I.

[MJ]

Sen_Vahan,

Are these the only alternatives available to us?

[Boghos]

That is a question that reveals the essence of the Disney Armenian.