Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

To shave one's face


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#1 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 01 November 2002 - 11:10 AM

So far:

Trashvel: (colloquial) from the Persian tarashidan. It can be used for face, head and body.

Atsilvel or Atselvel: (formal/uncommon) Armenian word derived from atseli, or blade in English. It's used for face, head and body. It is NOT, however, derived from the word tslel, or to grow in English. Atseli is almost definitely a word on its own, with no known prefix.

Saprvel: (formal) Armenian word used for face, head and body.

Maz vertsnel: (polite) it can be used for instance in: "Amen aravot yeres@s vertsnoom em", or "Votqeris mazer@ vertsrel em."

Trashd anoosh lini: (phrase) used like djoord anoosh lini. In this case, only trashd works, i.e. you can't say "Saprvatsd anoosh lini".

As for opposites, Mosjan, it's:

trashvats - chtrashvats - antrash
atsilvats - chatsilvats
saprvats - chsaprvats

[ November 01, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: nairi ]

#2 Harut

Harut

    Վերնագիր

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:հորիզոն...
  • Interests:uninterested...

Posted 01 November 2002 - 01:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
Maz vertsnel: (polite) it can be used for instance in: "Amen aravot yeres@s vertsnoom em", or "Votqeris mazer@ vertsrel em."



i hear this for the first time.

quote:
Trashd anoosh lini: (phrase) used like djoord anoosh lini. In this case, only trashd works, i.e. you can't say "Saprvatsd anoosh lini".


"saprd anush" is another way of saying it.

quote:
As for opposites, Mosjan, it's:

trashvats - chtrashvats - antrash
atsilvats - chatsilvats
saprvats - chsaprvats

antrash - trashov
seemingly two opposite words, but have the same meaning.

#3 Sip

Sip

    Buffet Connoisseur

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,365 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Online

Posted 01 November 2002 - 02:26 PM

I would like to add the new one: xhoozel

In case of my brother, if he doesn't shave every day, on pretty much the third day we have to literally "xhoozel" him like a "vochxhar" ... Gee I hope he doesn't see this

#4 Guest_Fadi_*

Guest_Fadi_*
  • Guests

Posted 01 November 2002 - 02:37 PM

Bad guy Seaphan, I'm afraid I have to show it to your brother.

#5 Sip

Sip

    Buffet Connoisseur

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,365 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Online

Posted 01 November 2002 - 02:50 PM

Aha! But then I may have to remind everyone about your (x-x) is not 0 proof ... I didn't want to say anything in the genocide thread because that would probably ruin your reputation

#6 Guest_Fadi_*

Guest_Fadi_*
  • Guests

Posted 01 November 2002 - 03:04 PM

But... I was right...

If you don't agree with it, then you disagree with the 7 undeterminated forms in mathematic...

Inf * 0, 0/0, 1 ^ inf, 0 ^ inf, inf - inf, inf/inf, inf ^ 0

I have demonstrated as well, by giving an example where ther equation don't maked "0" when we end up with one of the indeterminated for 0/0

You won't be able to stop me with those tricks, your brother will know what you said, and as for your last post, you'll pay for it, and I will be telling your GF, that you are cheating her with your computers.

BTW, I sound weird I know, it must be the changes of climats here that affect my moods, its like I am on something...

[ November 01, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

#7 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 02 November 2002 - 08:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Harut:
quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
Maz vertsnel: (polite) it can be used for instance in: "Amen aravot yeres@s vertsnoom em", or "Votqeris mazer@ vertsrel em."



i hear this for the first time.

I know, it's not very common, and I think it's only/mainly used among some Parska-Hays, but it does exist. Do you know any more "polite" expressions for shaving one's face?

quote:
"saprd anush" is another way of saying it.
Now this is one I've never heard before. Is it correct Armenian?

quote:
antrash - trashov
seemingly two opposite words, but have the same meaning.

Where did you find "trashov"? I couldn't find it in the dictionary.

#8 MosJan

MosJan

    Էլի ԼաՎա

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,391 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:My Little Armenia

Posted 02 November 2002 - 09:58 AM

Atseli - Sparel - Sprich - Saprvats - CH@Sap@rvats

Shnorhakal em sa bavakan e kariq chka kartrtsum em nor barer voronelu yev kam hnarelu iysqannn el vor pahenq lav klini


Norits SHnorhakal em

Movses

#9 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 02 November 2002 - 02:57 PM

This just really got me interested Mosjan. Armenian is such a rich language, that trivial things like "to shave", can become very interesting to research. Where did these words originate from? What is the difference between them? What was the original difference? How many more words or expressions for "to shave" do we have? That sort of stuff. But you're welcome anyway.

#10 Harut

Harut

    Վերնագիր

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:հորիզոն...
  • Interests:uninterested...

Posted 03 November 2002 - 12:21 PM

nairi, unfortunately i don't have an Armenian dictionary, and never used it to come up with those words and expressions.

there are just words that i know and are used by common people.

"saprd anush": even though i've never heard it myself, it sound gramatically correct, because "sapr" is a word. ("gishervan sapr@ xer e", Hakop Paronian)

i'm not suprised that you didn't find "trashov" in any dictionary, as it's jargon type of word.

#11 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 03 November 2002 - 06:42 AM

"saprd anoosh": great invention! Should we officially add it to the list of words and expressions?

"trashov": I was with a few Hayastantsis last night, and they basically said what you said. I wonder if other Armenians also use this word. Whatever the case, it's definitely valid for the list. Thanks.

#12 MosJan

MosJan

    Էլի ԼաՎա

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 28,391 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:My Little Armenia

Posted 05 November 2002 - 12:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
This just really got me interested Mosjan. Armenian is such a rich language, that trivial things like "to shave", can become very interesting to research. Where did these words originate from? What is the difference between them? What was the original difference? How many more words or expressions for "to shave" do we have? That sort of stuff. But you're welcome anyway.

Hamamits em Nairi jan
sakayn jamanak ar jamanak @est sovorutyan / Sxal- Himar/ ogtagortsum em / enq barer voronq voch HAyeren en voch el kap unen mer Mayreni lezvi het / hameniyn deps k@rkin angam shnorhakal em qezanits yev im lav barekam Arpait's urrman hamar /

i'mIj iylots arden 3 or e Komitasi ashxatanqneri masin em kardum / girq@ nvirvat se mi Americatsy barekami kormits vorn hovanavorel e grqi t@pagrutyun@/ iyn Komitasyan XazaGreri masin e - - urraki apshats em mnatsel te mer Komitas@ inchpes e pastagrel yev trtin handznel vochi miyayn 3000it's avel;i azgayin/Zut Haykakan yerger yev tonakatarutyuner - sksyal minj-hetanosakan jamanakner minch ir orer@. zaranali e - inchpes e karrratsel - yev hetaqrqir@ gites inchne vro hetanosakan jamanakashrjanum mer HAykakan yergn u yerajshtutyun@ yerel e ZULLAL MAQUR - ANBITS - chi unetsel yev voch mi xarnurd yev voch mi harevan petutyan yev n@rants katarelakerpi yev bareri.

inchyeve shnorhakal em krkin

Movses

#13 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 05 November 2002 - 12:58 PM

Mosjan, yete kez tchisht em haskanoom, you say that you speak wrong Armenian out of habit. Inchpes? Haykakan bar@ haykakan e. There's nothing wrong with using "trashvel". It's just more colloquial, or slang, but there's nothing non-Armenian about it. Yes, in its origins there is, but how similar are "trashvel" and "tarashidan" now? Besides, Mosjan, many many many words in any language were taken from another language at one time or another. That's why we have language trees. Armenian belongs in the Indo-European family. This means that words like "kov" and "katoo", are not necessarily Armenian in origin, but they have been Armenianized over time. So, if it's okay to say "kov", then it's also okay to "trashvel".

Have fun reading about Komitas!

Nairi

[ November 05, 2002, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: nairi ]

#14 Twilight Bark

Twilight Bark

    Resigned

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,060 posts

Posted 05 November 2002 - 07:18 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
... Besides, Mosjan, many many many words in any language were taken from another language at one time or another. That's why we have language trees. Armenian belongs in the Indo-European family. This means that words like "kov" and "katoo", are not necessarily Armenian in origin, but they have been Armenianized over time. So, if it's okay to say "kov", then it's also okay to "trashvel".

Sireli Nairi,

I am afraid your understanding of "language tree" is fundamentally different from mine. Armenian is an indo-european language by origin, and not by imposition or colonization. Therefore, most (almost all) "indo-european" words in Armenian are also "native".

The word "trashwel" is almost certainly a "recent" (it may be centuries for all I know, but still ...) addition to the slang. I personally don't use it, and must confess never heard it in "proper" Armenian. The word "trash" also exists in Turkish, and could have found its way into Armenian via Turkish. In any case, it is not nearly as Armenian as "atsilwil". However, I have no objection to enriching the language by importing or making up words. Perhaps we can mine Grabar as well for an even richer source, and much closer to home.

Got to go now ... Duty calls ...

TB

#15 sen_Vahan

sen_Vahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 440 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 05 November 2002 - 08:26 AM

'maz verznel' is used sometimes for haircut - 'maz verznel','maz ktrel'.

'Saprd anoush' exists probably only in Erevan...oh, sorry, and LA

New (morazvats) version - 'trashd shnorhavor' !

#16 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:21 AM

Dear TB,

What is "by origin" though? Who were the first speakers of Indo-European? How did it spread? And how did Armenians acquire it? You'll agree that the answers to these questions are all mere speculations and that the theories keep changing. Even if Armenians were born into Indo-European, or voluntarily adopted it as their native language, it was still not originally theirs. Therefore, Indo-European words that sound originally Armenian (like kov and katoo), are actually Armenianized forms, very much like cow and cat in English.

Grabar: I was hoping to find out what words/expressions for "shaving one's face" there are in grabar, and how many of these "modern" words were derived from grabar. I've been meaning to ask the one professor we have here, but he's out of the country at the moment. I hope to see him soon.

Vahan jan, thank you! Any more?

#17 Twilight Bark

Twilight Bark

    Resigned

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,060 posts

Posted 05 November 2002 - 10:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nairi:
What is "by origin" though? Who were the first speakers of Indo-European? How did it spread? And how did Armenians acquire it? You'll agree that the answers to these questions are all mere speculations and that the theories keep changing. Even if Armenians were born into Indo-European, or voluntarily adopted it as their native language, it was still not originally theirs. Therefore, Indo-European words that sound originally Armenian (like kov and katoo), are actually Armenianized forms, very much like cow and cat in English.

The "origins" are not as mysterious or murky as they are often made out to be, especially when one is disciplined with definitions. Armenians first appear as a coherent entity as a subordinate province in the Hittite Empire, by the name of Hayasa-Azzi province (the "Haykazian" period in Khorenatsi). Since Hittite was also indo-european, and Hayasa-Azzi shows itself as a coherent entity with which the Hittite center signed a treaty relatively late in the life of the Hittite empire, it is reasonable to assume that the language of this first coherently "Hye" entity was indo-european as well. As for the precise languages that their anthropological ancestors spoke, it is not all that relevant to deciding what forms a "native" Armenian word, as there was no concept of an "Armenian" at the time. If we go far back enough, our material ancestors spoke the grunts and screams of the apes, and going further back they ultimately were the silent unicellular organisms. Fascinating to be sure, but not relevant to deciding which words are "native" Armenian.

Keep thinking.

TB

#18 nairi

nairi

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,704 posts

Posted 05 November 2002 - 11:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight Bark:
The "origins" are not as mysterious or murky as they are often made out to be, especially when one is disciplined with definitions.

But what definitions are you disciplined with that many others who have studied this field forever are not?

Your historiography of the Armenian language has largely been confirmed by many scholars, but as you said yourself, Indo-European has been acquired by Armenians. Armenians did not invent Indo-European. My point is: if after centuries, "trashvel" is still considered a foreign borrowing, then so should Indo-European words. It is irrelevant whether the first recorded Armenians spoke Indo-European or not. What is relevant however, is that Indo-European was never originally Armenian. The only truly native Armenian words are those we can trace back without doubt as purely Armenian inventions. Everything else is either a foreign borrowing or a speculation. This includes the family we chose to belong to.

Keep thinking

Nairi

#19 Guest_Fadi_*

Guest_Fadi_*
  • Guests

Posted 06 November 2002 - 12:05 AM

Nairi, this is not exactly how things work.

You should view Armenians as a branch of the tree of "Indo-Europeanism" rather than a people that acquired indo-Europeanism from elsewhere. What I mean is that the Armenian language is one type of the many different indo-European languages, like I said, indo-European is like the tree, and if you go back far in time enough far, you will find out that a form of communication dialects existed(proto-Indo-European) that finaly modified and separated to other branches, that later became, Armenian, greek, Persian etc... it is only recently in history that languiests separated Armenian and have put them as a distinct languages, many believed in the past that Armenian is a form of Persian.

Other thing remain, is that there is many aspect in the Armenian language that are dinstinct and are not present in any other indo-European languages, that may also explain influences far in time with other people, where the mixtures of all those dialects has given what was Armenian... and the way languages are classed, is based on the domination of the family, the family languages that dominate Armenian, is Indo-European. So Armenians did not really acquired indo-European from others, but more exactly the Armenian language was just one product among many other languages, of the evolution of languages.

Its like the quote.

"Humans are not the product of evolution of the apes, but rather, apes and humans are the product of evolution of a common ancestor"(sorry for my English, but I think you understand what I mean by this)

To finish, Armenians were part of this evolution, they have created new structures etc... and finaly thats why Armenian is a so rich language.

[ November 05, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

#20 THOTH

THOTH

    Veteran

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,610 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:many

Posted 06 November 2002 - 12:24 AM

I am not a linguist or familiar with this issue in any informed way. However it seems to me that Indo-European is more of a category of languages with related origins and not a language in itself(like Latin) from which other languages have sprung. With this being the case don't we just view Armenian as Indo-European? This is do to some commonalities of words (and perhaps structure) - no? But this does not necessarily prohibit language unique words or words diffused from other cultures possessing non Indo-European language. Not sure of this concept of pre-dated words - ie words existing prior to adoption of common forms from other Indo-European tongues. Does this change anything?

Ignore this if I am just way off the mark here. Otherwise, your welcome - if this was of any help.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users