36 replies to this topic

[Vayri7X]

I have a question about an unstated rule on women and hair length. I thought of this at St. Sarkis this last Sunday while trying to find a brush to get ready, and notice this trend among odars as well.

Why is it that women at a certain age seem to have to abide by an unstated rule of cutting off their hair , and often getting it permed ? Someone told me this is common, I noticed it and thought "EH" ?

What does hair represent that it needs to be shorn at a certain stage in life? Why the cutting? Is it some sort of unstated feminine "rite of passage"?

Thoughts, please?

And please... no " long of hair , short of sense " nonsense.

[vava]

Thoughts, please?

And please... no " long of hair , short of sense " nonsense.

Awwwww. That was my response, exactly!

No, but I've noticed this trend, even amonst my relatives, aunt, cousins and such. It may simply be a practical thing. It's much easier to take care of shorter hair and than long, non? And maybe (I'm assuming) that after a lifetime of caring for hair, women of a certain age do not wish to continue with the hassle. Pure conjecture, I know - but I would hate to attribute it to a sexual issue - ie. to say that after a certain age, women no longer need to 'attract' the opposite, and hence no need for (traditionally) attractive, feminine, long hair.

[Vayri7X]

Good point on the practicality of short hair.

I am not making a value/aesthetic judgement on either long or short hair . Afterall, I had a good portion of mine shaved off during my teen years- but it grew back with a vengeance .

I have also seen/heard of some Armenian women who had their hair cut as a type of punishment. I don't think this has much to do with shorter hair in specific stages of life, though.

I *do* wonder if hair is some sort of (unconscious) signifier of sexuality, and hence the expectation of moderation at a certain stage in life. Maybe the best place to refer is poems, songs, proverbs and so forth.

Any one got some novel Armenian proverbs, poems, songs referring to women's hair? Poetic associations?

Personally, I refuse to ever cut my hair , despite if this is a rule or not

[Vayri7X]

well- not just hair signfies sexuality-- but anything else.. I agree with what yousaid about that.

[vava]

I have an aunt well into her 50's, and she shaves her head! And I'm pretty sure that's it has got nothing to do with sexuality. If we look at other traditional (I use this in the loosest sense of the word) feminine adornments like make-up & wardrobe, we do certainly see a transformation with age. Not as radical as chopping off hair, but women do dress differently and (it seems to me) wear their make-up less often, and less strictly as they get push past middle age towards being seniors.

Honestly it's not something I've really examined, but your observation about the hair is probably the most compelling. Is it something armenian-specific? I think not - we see the same phenomena in North American women, as well as other mediterrenean & european cultures.

[hyebruin]

i've heard that with muslims they cover up the women's hair, because the hair gives off some sort of "vibe" that is supposed to sexually arouse men! and therefore the woman bears the responsibility to keep it hidden...much like with the rest of her body!!!---why couldn't these horny men look somewhere else? ---i feel sorry for those poor women who have to abide by all these b.s. rules...i know many muslims who don't cover up their hair, wear makeup and you can even see cleavage once in a while!...so in the name of religion, these "leaders" choose to suppress the women of their countries!!----drifted a bit off topic there, but you get my point

[THOTH]

i've heard that with muslims they cover up the women's hair, because the hair gives off some sort of "vibe" that is supposed to sexually arouse men! and therefore the woman bears the responsibility to keep it hidden...much like with the rest of her body!!!---why couldn't these horny men look somewhere else? ---i feel sorry for those poor women who have to abide by all these b.s. rules...i know many muslims who don't cover up their hair, wear makeup and you can even see cleavage once in a while!...so in the name of religion, these "leaders" choose to suppress the women of their countries!!----drifted a bit off topic there, but you get my point

no no not at all 'Bruin - do go on ..and I hear ya...but do I (and other guys I suppose) really have to look somewhere else? ..I mean whats wrong with (just) looking? And don't tell me you really don't want us to look?

And regarding (womens) hair - yes its mostly an ease of care thing I think. Shame - I love long hair on a gal...but got to admit - short hair can look sexy/nice too...and sometimes IMO perferable on certain gals (had to admit this recently - even to my own surprise!)

[hyebruin]

thoth, i spent more time being amused by your eccentric use of the 'rarer' smilies!!!...hmmm just wondering what were you thinkin?

[THOTH]

Just drinking you down girl! Really - I love your posts...always entertaining - so more more more!...bring it on baby!

[Stormig]

Not only is short hair practical, but I think women after a certain age no longer have nice hair - no longer soft, brilliant, etc. So why bother?

[THOTH]

My Grandmother (who was of English/Irish/Scotish descent) had beautiful (very) long (golden yellow) blond hair into her 80s! She was always complemented on such. Boy was she distraught however when it finially did start to thin and fall out (when she was in her late 80s)...she wore a wig after...

[hyebruin]

so sad about your grandma's hair!! that's why i try to enjoy every day now!! it takes at least 2 decades or so to become an adult and have youth and beauty...and knowing that it's such a wonderful gift we've been given, humbles me so, and i try to enjoy it for as long as i can....

[THOTH]

so sad about your grandma's hair!! that's why i try to enjoy every day now!! it takes at least 2 decades or so to become an adult and have youth and beauty...and knowing that it's such a wonderful gift we've been given, humbles me so, and i try to enjoy it for as long as i can....

Thank you for the sentiment 'Bruin. Yeah - I feel that way about my hair too! I used to wear it fairly long in part for this reason (I felt that I had "good" hair - LOL) - though now its, I don't know, meduim-short...? Still am grateful that I still have my hair! I have nearly a dozen male cousins (on my Armenian side) and only two others besides myself still has hair on top!

[Sip]

Just drinking you down girl! Really - I love your posts...always entertaining - so more more more!...bring it on baby!

[nairi]

I have an aunt well into her 50's, and she shaves her head!

My theory that every family has a weird aunt is being confirmed more and more...

On topic: could it have something to do with dying (as in dye, not die) being easier and less hassle with shorter hair?

Long hair is easier to keep, by the way, if only because you don't need to have it cut and modelled every few weeks. But I guess it depends on what you do with your hair... If you're the type that likes a fashionable cut, then long hair can be as much of a hassle than short. But I guess if you like that, then you shouldn't mind the time and effort either...

[Vayri7X]

hyebruin-
good points and taken in the spirit of question in which you put them. And thanks all for your reponses !

However, I have over the years been friends and cery close friends with women who wore the hijab. You may be surprised, but all of them were anything but oppressed- and all were feminists! They saw the hijab as a way of de-objectifying themselves and also being proud of their religous heritage.

I would argue (and you might agree ) that just as there is a way to interpret the Bible and Chrisitianity from an oppressive and sexist perspective ( i.e., *some* Baptists) and a way to interpret the Bible
in a liberating , gender -friendly and humanitarian perspective ( i.e., some Liberation Theology and that Armenian fellow in Australia Dr Armen Gakavian ) , Islam has both repressive and libertarian interpretation and practice.

Elizabeth Fernea wrote a book on Islamic feminism.

A funny , scholarly yet readable book on this is written by the ( amazing , smart and humorous ) Moroccan sociologist, Fatima Mernissi. It is called " Sheherezade goes West". In it she makes a joke that because of pressure for weight and looks that " a size 6 mini-skirt is the western woman's 'harem' 9 or veil , she implies elsewhere).

On the Armenian experience - hayastantzis and spiurkahyes_ in the Apostolic Church and hair:

I also wondered the *origin* of the lace covers for hair for the women's choir. I still haven''t found much rich detail on this and Armenian metaphors for hair in poetry yet in the libraries here in North Texas. akh. Better ask this Sunday .

[Stormig]

Don't see how long hair can be practical. When it grows beyond a certain length, just gets tangled up when washing and the brush of the comb pulls out half my hair.

[Vayri7X]

True on the iall mpractical parts of long hair. I -LOOVE__ the pixie cuts with long side-wisps that have become the rage on some hayastantzi women ( at least near san diego where i was visiting and went to a dinner party ). If I ever cut my hair ( unlikely) I'll probably go with that. My best jaan from Pakistan introduced me to the hair oil that desi women use. I made a variation on that, and have not had too much problems with tangling.

Some of my friends have opted for dread-locks. I find them attractive on alot of people-particularly with colors better associated with wild-flowers and not hair-color ;-) But because I am not down for further ripping-off of African culture that is kind of popular by hipsters in parts of the world , I don't have them . Kind of hard to pull off in some Armenian circles in the us south as well

Anyhow-- anyone thought of the origin of the lace head covers used in Apostolic services?

[Sasun]

It maybe not very practical but long hair does make women look like more feminine, IMO. There are some exceptions though.

[nairi]

Ari u hima mazeri masin banasteghtsutyun charir! I think your best bet is love poems about women. Probably Hamo Sayan, but also Charents, Raffi and maybe even Narekatsi must have written something, if only one line, on women's hair.

I don't have any books here with me right now besides Isahakian and Tumanian, and quite honestly I don't have much time to look at everything in detail, but from a glance at the table of content, I found these two poems:

Avetik Isahakian:

Vardi shrtunq@d, aghji'k achagegh,
Hambuyri hamar hasel e aha.
O, mi' ardzakir mazer@d shqegh
Hognats, djardvats im k@rtsqi vra:

Garun vaghuc gnac im srten,
Yev sirts hima` tsan@r, v@shtahar, --
Vardi shrtunq@d hasel e arden
Hnchum hambuyri, bayc voch indz hamar...


Speaking of "indz hamar"...

Anyway, back on-topic. Here's another by Hovhannes Tumanian:

Anitsats Hars@

Vagh zhamanak mi hay shenum
Mi hargevor harsn e linum:
[...]

Espes khonarh u hargevor:
Mi or menak odum n@stats,
Ir tchokh mazern ardzak tapats,
Azat, anpuyt sanrum, hyusum,
Hetn el dzenov yerg er asum:

[...]

The song is not about her hair, in case anyone wants to know

Here's a few idioms from my dictionary:

Maz anel: (barbar) mazer@ hyusel, tsamer shinel:
Maz mnal: qich mnal:
Maz@ ktrats: kap@ ktrats, anzgam:
Maz chi paksi: vochinch chi paksi, vochinch chi pokhvi:
Shanits maz pokel@ kher e: asvum e, yerb zhlat marduc karoghanum en mi poqr ban dzerq berel:
Qti maz: avelnord` amen bani mej kharnvogh` dzandzracnogh mard:
Maz@ yeresin choracats: shat nihar:
Mazer@ biz-biz kangnel: asvum e khist vakhenalu depqum:
Mazi hamranqov: khist shat:
Mazi chap: bnav, bolovorin:
Maz@ mazits jokel: shat manrakrkit` achqarats linel:
Mazin dipchel: tekuz chnchin chapov vnasel:
Maz plokel: keghrqel, harstaharel:


Here's a few more quotes:

"Oriord@ poqrik sanrov hardarec mazer@ yev mazeri pnjer@ volorec teq u miahavasar" - Aksel Bakunc
"Anandan maz mnats, vor halver" - Avetik Isahakian
"Ur korar, Anush, ay, mazd ktrats?" - Hovannes Tumanian
"Ahmed@ gisherner@ aycelum er gerinerin yev pahapanner nshanakum hskelu, vor nranc glkhic voch mi maz chpakasi' - Raffi

Hope it's helpful, if only just a bit

As for wearing a net over the hair in church, doesn't it say something about it in the Bible? As far as I know, all Christian women, regardless of branch, are supposed to cover their heads, especially in a church.

Storms, that's cool. I guess everyone has their preference. I prefer long hair for me. It's less hassle for me. I had short hair a few times in my life and found it really annoying to take care of, although I do agree that long after a certain length is too much hassle as well. But if I have to choose between going to hairdresser's twice a year or twice a month, I'll choose twice a year