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#1 MosJan

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Posted 13 July 2002 - 10:13 PM

indz petq en iys yergeri anvanumneri Angleren tarberakner@

Adanayi Vorb kam Adanayi kotorats -
Tariner -
Dle Yaman - chem kartsum sa Angleren lini
Qele Laow - Qele Laow Qele Yertanq mer yergir
Zinwori yerg - Trcheyi mtqov tun

Shnorhakal em Naxapes

#2 hayemyes

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Posted 14 July 2002 - 06:35 AM

Adanayi Kotorats - The Tragedy of Adana
Tariner - Years
Dle Yaman - I'm sure there is I knew it before but cant remember, ill check
Kele Lao - Rise, My Son
Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song

#3 Arpa

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Posted 14 July 2002 - 04:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MosJan:

MosJan wrote:
indz petq en iys yergeri anvanumneri Angleren tarberakner@
Adanayi Vorb kam Adanayi kotorats -
Adana Lament or Adana Massacre
Tariner -
Depends on the context. I don't know which one this is. The title may best be composed from the spirit of the poem/song. Otherwise it simply means "Years". To make it more poetic one may translate it it as Those Were the Years.
Dle Yaman - chem kartsum sa Angleren lini
This is highly controversial. See below.
Qele Laow - Qele Laow Qele Yertanq mer yergir
Qele means walk as in Komitas' "Qele qele qelqid mernem"- Walk, walk I die for your walk. Wele also is used as "come". In the above title it may be translated; Come Lao, Come Let's go to Our Land. As to "lao", this is also controversial, as in the case of Dle Yaman it is highly probable that they are loaned from Kurdish. Some time ago somebody translated "lao" to mean (my)child. Correct! As it is used in the song. Mother singing lullaby to her infant son and hoping he will grow up to be a hero.
"lao" is not found in any dictionary, my suspicion that it may be Kurdish, however, there was a time when we used the word as euphemism for "lakot", i.e shan zavak. Wait! Don't fly the handle yet. Lakot is in fact commonly used to mean "shan zavak" but it can also used to mean something less insulting and endearing as "puppy". In fact Armenians use terms like "shan lakot" or "shunshanordi" as terms of endearment than insult(depending on the context and circumstances. If we assume that "lao" is a contraction of lakot then we get an extra bonus since "lakot" regardless of its common usage is also applied to offspring of other beasts such as lions, even though we have a specific word for that "koryun".
Shal we translate "Zatir Lao" as "Wake up my Lions' Cub"?
Zinwori yerg - Trcheyi mtqov tun
My Heart Flies Home
Shnorhakal em Naxapes
Dle Yaman.
As above, my suspicion is that it is from the Kurdish as neither of the words are in any Armenian dictionaries. The phrase may not even have a plausible meaning, that it is just an exclammation, specially the "yaman" part. We use "aman" (from the Turkish?)as an expression of exasperation and despair. However the Turks use the word "yaman" to mean strong, terrible, horrible, and we use it almost in the same sense, more often to mean "cruel" as in the following song; Sare@ kanach khotov Yaman Yar, Sirt@s liqn e karotov, Yaman Yar, Yar@s intsnits bez arats Yaman Yar, Tun k@ga handi hotov Yaman Yar. Yaman Yar=Cruel Lover. As to "dle" there may one explanation. It is not found in any dictionary but there is "doul", another variation of "toul/tuyl" as in "tuy tur", "let(me)". Could it be that dle is verb form of "doul/tuyl" to mean "let" as in "let the cruelty"?
AS mentioned above, more than anything else "Dle Yaman" is just an expression, an exclamation. It can be safely translated as
Alas Cruelty!!
This may be further asserted as it is used rpeatedly in the refrain ... Yaman, yaman, yaman/Alas, alas, alas!!

#4 Sip

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Posted 14 July 2002 - 07:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
Zinwori yerg - Trcheyi mtqov tun
My Heart Flies Home

I know it's not as "poetic" as that translation but wouldn't it be more appropriete to say:

Soldier's Song - My Thoughts Flying Home
Soldier's Song - Thinking of Home

or maybe a more direct translation:

Soldier's Song - Making my home wet with my thoughts

quote:
Originally posted by MosJan:
Shnorhakal em Naxapes

Thank you I am before hand.

.

[ July 14, 2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

#5 Tatavla

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Posted 14 July 2002 - 09:31 PM

Adanayi Vorp(vorp@,vorpe) = the orphan of Adana
Trcheyi mtqov tun = "to fly/ flying/ flew home in my thoughts" or "want to fly home in my thoughts"

#6 MosJan

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Posted 14 July 2002 - 09:52 PM

Shnorhakal bolorits

#7 MosJan

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Posted 14 July 2002 - 09:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tatavla:
Adanayi Vorp(vorp@,vorpe) = the orphan of Adana
Trcheyi mtqov tun = "to fly/ flying/ flew home in my thoughts" or "want to fly home in my thoughts"

Tatavla jan Welcome to HyeForum

it's not vorp = Orphen
it VorB

#8 Sip

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Posted 15 July 2002 - 09:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MosJan:
... it's not vorp = Orphen
it VorB

Is that 'r' as in sirun (beautiful) or 'r' as in the french 'r' as in degegh (ugly) ???

.

[ July 15, 2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

#9 Harut

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Posted 15 July 2002 - 09:41 PM

by now you should have noticed that, Sip.
our Movses is either "tlik" or French.

#10 SAS

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 05:16 AM

La& > Lao

La& = vordi/zavak/dzag nuynpes hayern bar chi:

Im kartsiqov, "lao"-n "la&"-i pagahqshakan dzevn e:

H.G."&"-n jashi miji "j"-n e...

#11 Arpa

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SAS:
La& > Lao

La& = vordi/zavak/dzag nuynpes hayern bar chi:

Im kartsiqov, "lao"-n "la&"-i pagahqshakan dzevn e:

H.G."&"-n jashi miji "j"-n e...

Barev SAS,
Bari es eker, after a long silence.
If I am reading your transliteration correctly you are saying that lao is another form of eandearment (pagahkshakan) of "laj" You mean the "laj" in Komitas' Antuni where each verse ends with the refrain of "Ay! to laj tnaver". You may have a point there as "laj" according to Ajarian means "tgha". There is no explanation as to where it comes from or the origin of the word. Ajarian also mentions that many others use it in almost similar way including Kurdish etc. One suggestion which he rejects is that some have suggested that it is from the English "lad".
I still meainatin that it probably has something to do with "lakot", only that it is modified to sound endearing rather than insulting. The Arabs also use "lak" in much the same way we use "dzo/tso", a soemwhat coarse way to address a boy. I will write about this under separate cover.
Does anybody know a Kurd that speaks Kurdish?

#12 Arpa

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 07:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MosJan:
quote:
Originally posted by Tatavla:
Adanayi Vorp(vorp@,vorpe) = the orphan of Adana
Trcheyi mtqov tun = "to fly/ flying/ flew home in my thoughts" or "want to fly home in my thoughts"

Tatavla jan Welcome to HyeForum

it's not vorp = Orphen
it VorB

Welscome indeed Tatavia
Let this be your first lesson.
Mosjan is very tricky. When he uses the letter "r" you'll have to be very careful and watch the context. At times he means R as "bari es eker" but more often than not he uses to sound like the French R. So if you see him write "xaror" what he really means is "khaghogh", grape. His "vorp Adanyi" was meant to be read a "voghb Aadanyi", lament not orphan. Whe he writes "gerecik" that means "geghetsik/beautiful".
There ought to be law!!

#13 Tatavla

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 08:28 PM

thanx

(& hopefully, i'll be more careful in the future)

#14 Sip

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 08:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
Let this be your first lesson.
Mosjan is very tricky. When he uses the letter "r" you'll have to be very careful and watch the context. At times he means R as "bari es eker" but more often than not he uses to sound like the French R....

Merci

I also read is as "vorp" (orphan) at first. But then after I saw "lament" I guessed it's probably 'voghb' but then again, I was not sure about that word, voghb. The good thing is that my Armenian vocabulary has been expanding greatly since I've been around here ... Thanks.

[ July 16, 2002, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

#15 SAS

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 12:05 AM

Voghjuyn, Arpa:

Harkadir lrutyuns uner ir pat&arner@` gluxs u gortsers mi qich xarn ein...

La&/laj voch miayn Antunium e handipum, ayl mer azgayin dyucaznavepum,

el chem asum vor im harazat` Msho barbarum ayn amenorya gortsatsakan bar e:

Minchev hima mer gyughaqaghaqum mayrern irenc zavaknerin qnqshoren "la&o/lao" en asum:

Qo bacatrutyun@ shat hetaqrqir er ( lakot > lao ), bayc yes kuzenayi ushadrutyund hravirel mi hangamanqi vra:

"Lakot"-n ogtagortsum en hamarya bolor haykakan barbarnerum:

-Shan lakot, de xeloq nsti teghd` kyanqs kerar, e:

Sa mi sovorakan naxadasutyun e, vor mayrern asum en sndiki nman sharzhun, holi nman mor gogum pttvogh irenc poqriknerin:

Isk la&/lao, inchqan indz haytni e, Sasuni/Msho/Taroni barbarnerum,vortegh shat en qrdakan poxarutyunnern u qrdereni azdecutyun@ mets:

Ayn uni nayev nrberangner`

Lao, imal is, dor kertas = VORDYAK, inchpes es, ur es gnum?

Lao, xeloq mna, im hers ch'hanis = TGHA, xeloq mna, indz ch'jghaynacnes/kataghecnes:

Aha aysqan@...

H.G. Arpa,togh qez mot chsteghtsvi ayn tpavorutyun@, vor yes amen gnov uzum em im

SIROGHAKAN makardakov qez( el chem asum` A&aryanin ) haka&arel: Qav lici!

Im gratsnern aveli shat harcer en, yentadrutyunner, qan te pndumner:

Gitutyun aystegh "mrapum" e, miayn gortsum e lezvi zgacoghutyun@,

vorn ardyunq e aveli shat bnazdi, qan te` banakanutyan...

[ July 17, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: SAS ]

#16 MosJan

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:48 AM

Shnorhakal em

Uremn iyspes

Zarmanali Visht - Amazing Grace

Tariner - Years

Dle YAmen

Adana Voghb@ - lament of Adana or Adanas lament

Mush

Qele Laow - LEts Go my kid - or - Lets / Walk / Come Lao

Parzir Arbyur - ?

Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song

Mi Lar Blbul - ?

-
i need 2 mor Thank you - all

#17 MosJan

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Harut:
by now you should have noticed that, Sip.
our Movses is either "tlik" or French.

che aper Flansyatsy @engeRuhi uneyi mi jamanak - iRanits em varRraqverRr.

Ba
He ha

#18 Arpa

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 11:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MosJan:
quote:
Originally posted by Harut:
by now you should have noticed that, Sip.
our Movses is either "tlik" or French.

che aper Flansyatsy @engeRuhi uneyi mi jamanak - iRanits em varRraqverRr.
Ba
He ha

I was going to suggest that Movses' affliction of using R to mean GH was due to too much French wine, bayts i hayt kga, ir isk khostvanqov, te bun harts@ Fransakan gini che ayl Fransatsi kin.

#19 Arpa

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 09:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MosJan:
Shnorhakal em

Uremn iyspes

Zarmanali Visht - Amazing Grace

Tariner - Years

Dle YAmen

Adana Voghb@ - lament of Adana or Adanas lament

Mush

Qele Laow - LEts Go my kid - or - Lets / Walk / Come Lao

Parzir Arbyur - ?

Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song

Mi Lar Blbul - ?

-
i need 2 mor Thank you - all

Oh, no it is far from the Season to be Jolly.
So, is it the season to be silly?
I was silly once today already, so I'll be silly again. My serious response will follow.
In the meantime;
Mi Lar Blbul= Don't Cry My Bull.

Parzir Aghbyur= Krdi Lakot.

Just listen to the words;

"Parzir Aghbyur, parzir arat jur tanem.
Parzir, parzir Krdin tghin jur tanem
Aghbyur gites Kurd@ mezi inch kane?
K@ kpghopte, k@ haladze, kspanne.
Parzir, parzir. Krdi lajin jur tanem."

#20 Arpa

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Posted 18 July 2002 - 07:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Arpa:
quote:
Originally posted by MosJan:
Shnorhakal em

Zarmanali Visht - Amazing Grace

Amazing Agony: as "visht" means pain and agony. Although "Amazing Grace" is a well known popular song it does not really impart the true sense, besides, it may have a copyright attached.

Parzir Arbyur - ?

Mi Lar Blbul - ?

-
i need 2 mor Thank you - all

Parzir Aghbyur=
OK, I forgot my silly pills this morning
Am I forgiven? Or do I have to write a "Zghjum" like Petros Turian

Parzir Arbyur - ?
This is relatively short.
Parzir=Open
Aghbyur=Fountain.
So the English would be "Open Fountain".
But this is kind dry and Drab. Let's see if we can make it more poetic, i.e. Take some "poetic license".
The formal English word for aghbyur is fountain but that would not be so poetic and it would not fit the meter. Many poets have taken the liberty to abbreviate the word to "fount".
Let's see how this will fit;

OPEN OH FOUNT

Mi Lar Blbul - ?
I would translate this as, again for the sake of poesy and meter;
Cry Not My Lark!
Let me explain.
Many professional linguists who know much better than I have translated "blbul" into Armenian as "sokhak". It makes sense, kind of. In the Armenian tradition sokhak is the embodiment of a song bird, so much so that we describe some singers, usually female ones as; "sokhaki pes daylaylum e".
In fact in its original languages, such as Arabic, blbul is used to describe a canary. The Armenian word for canary is "deghtsanik" (mainly for its yellew color). If in fact we translate it to mean sokhak then technically and scientifically it had to be translated into English as "robin". See the book "A Field Guide to Birds of Armenia", plate 44, opposite page 108. The way we know robins, they are not the model of a songbird.
http://www.jjaudubon...s/plate131.html
Some people may have had their wires crossed.
"Blbul" is from the original Persian. My Pers-Eng dictionary defines it as "lark". This latter bird has been the subject of many a poet, including but not limited to Shelley, Keats et al. It has not escaped the Armenian poets either. The Armenian poets refer to "lark" as "artuyt"(I wish I could remember who has written a poem about it. Is it Daniel V. in his Hatsin Erg@?
http://www.usc.edu/i...t/audubob1.html
So, if "blbul" originally means "lark" then the Armenian for it would be "artuyt". (See same book Plate 39, opposite page 98.)
Once again, for the sake of poesy and rhythm I suggest;

CRY NOT MY LARK




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