"Our lands"
#1
Posted 13 April 2001 - 05:56 PM
#2
Posted 13 April 2001 - 07:12 PM
Even though the idea of claiming the lands seem to be crazy but there are people who support it, and moreover there are politicians nowadays who start compaigns for demanding the lands, e.g. Hairikian, who demands, Nakhichevan, Kars and Ardahan, as they were given to Azerbaijan and Turkey in 1921 by Russia (Treaty of Kars).
#3
Posted 13 April 2001 - 08:36 PM
even though Armenians didn't have independence for most of their history, they always lived in the area Greater Haik.
whoever ruled over Armenians, they recognized the teritory as Land of Armenians,
except those eastern people that immigrated in the middle ages.
When i say Armenia i always imagine the Greater Haik, which included most of the eastern turky, south-western azerbajan, southern georgia, northern iran, and a little parts from northern iraq and syria.
i don't know how others but i think and always will consider that area ARMENIA.
even today, in this area (except) eastern turky) live great number of Armenians.
i don't how much i'm correct but that's what i believe in.
#4
Posted 14 April 2001 - 04:25 AM
The first, is the one that says that since we lived in that region for hundres of years and even ruled over it. That we have important cultural monuments in the area. And given that we were forcibly removed from it, we are entitled to have it back. This I shall call the romantic view. It is not based on any pragmatic notion of politics and actually, if it could actually be sustained would give room for som many claims all over the world that it would make it impossible to ascertain rights over any piece of land.
However, the second view, is the one that deals with the issue of possession. Over time there is only one way to secure it: force. Yes, one can point out to exceptions, where land was given to a certain group without bloodletting. But these are just exceptions.
Personally I think that Kars and Ardahan should belong to Armenia, and that there are basis for this claim. However I find it extremely unlikley that we will happen anytime soon. I defend the construction of a stronmg state, in the molds of Israel. Later we can think about other issues.
#5
Posted 14 April 2001 - 07:32 AM
I basically agree with all of your observations.
The points that I wanted to make, when opening this topic are the following:
1. We had lost our lands to Iran and Byzantium long before the arrival of Turks;
2. Turks have not taken these lands away from us, but primarily from Byzantium;
3. During the second millennium, Armenians have become smaller and smaller minority on these lands;
4. For almost 1000 years, Armenians have not advanced any claims on these lands, nor have had aspirations for them;
5. Until the Genocide, the demography of Armenians on the historic Armenian lands has changed (in a negative direction) primarily due to the action taken by the Armenian Church, Shah Abbas, and natural assimilation. For example, a very significant percentage of Turks should have Armenian origin;
6. In the words of one of the then Prime Minister of the first Republic of Armenia, Khatisian ( if I am not mistaken - in two years we have had 5-6 Prime Ministers), when discussing the issue of “our lands,” as promised by ENTANTE, “if we would bring together all Armenians from all over the world, and hold each others hands, and line-up along the borders of the ‘promised’ land, we cannot even cover the borders;”
7. Throughout most of the history, at least the history of the last 1500 years, Armenia has been a geographic category, rather than legal or political;
8. The only existing legal-political framework regarding the territorial definition of Armenia may be advanced in the context of Eastern Armenia. When declaring its independence in 1918, Turkey has been the first state de-facto and de-jure recognizing its independence;
9. The Russo-Turkish Treaty of 1921 is the rampant violation of the international law, and is the deal stripping Armenia off of its legitimate attributes. However, the executor of that Treaty, as specified by the treaty itself, has not been Turkey, but Russia;
10. Any claims of the Eastern Armenian lands, if qualified to be realistic and executable, have to be directed at Russia, first of all, and then at Turkey.
In conclusion, I think the cultivation of the dream of “Our lands,” in its present form, and the institutionalised misleading of our people, are some of the greatest crimes of the Armenian political parties (primarily in Diaspora), the other organizations, and ideologists against our nation.
#6
Posted 14 April 2001 - 09:21 AM
What can I say. I think nothing. Just that I am in 100% agreement with your very well thought out and detailed arguments.
Yours humbly,
Boghos
[ April 14, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]
#7
Posted 14 April 2001 - 11:18 PM
I am sure, many others would disagree with us.
#8
Posted 14 April 2001 - 04:44 PM
#9
Posted 14 April 2001 - 06:14 PM
Originally posted by MJ:
10. Any claims of the Eastern Armenian lands, if qualified to be realistic and executable, have to be directed at Russia, first of all, and then at Turkey.
...
While I agree with you, on many of the things that you said, i sure hope that Armenians do not do anything to harm the relationship that they have with Russia. Without Russia, Armenian will fall in no time.
#10
Posted 14 April 2001 - 06:41 PM
With all due respect, I disagree with your statement.
Not that I am promoting deteriorating relations between Russia and Armenia, however. To the contrary, I am advocating improved relations between Armenia and all other states of the refion.
Additionally, I think Armenia may play an important role of a balancing factor in our complicated region.
#11
Posted 14 April 2001 - 09:29 PM
I am sorry, but I am going to disagree with you. Armenia has only one roll to play from the viewpoint of its neighbors, and that is additional land that they can take over. If it was not for Russia, Azerbaijan would be in control of Karabach. I strongly feel that the Turks would have helper the Azeri's in making sure that that was the case.
I know my statement is somewhat extreme, but I feel that Armenia was built by Russia. Armenians became some of the most educated thanks to Russia. Culture and Arts reached it's highest pick under Russia, and without them we have not done anything.
The arms that were raised united in 1989-91 for free Armenia have all been lowered in 10 years and today they are not asking for free Armenia, but for spare change. This is reality.
I do agree with your statement of "improved relations between Armenia and all other states". I personally do not care about the lands that Turkey has or anything like that. I am in favor of peace and more actions on economic improvements rather than anything else for Armenia.
#12
Posted 15 April 2001 - 02:42 AM
With all due respect, I have to disagree with you one more time.
Until the collapse of the Soviet Union, the entire Karabagh was reduced to a mere city of Stepanagert. All that was executed by the Soviet Special forces under the command of Soviet General Saphonov. What has saved Karabagh has been the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the pull-out of the Soviet/Russian forces from Karabagh, i.e. the fact of Armenians being left alone with the Azeries. Sure, there were small groups of Russian mercenaries fighting in the Armenian side, but there were also similar size Russian mercenaries in the Azeri side. As to the arms, the relationship of the arms acquired from the Soviet Army was about 1:5 against Armenians –in favor of Azeries. True, subsequently, Armenians have confiscated much of the arms that were under the Azerie control.
Your statement regarding building Armenia by Russia indeed is extreme. It would be accurate to claim, I think, that Armenia was built during the Soviet period. Does it mean that it would’ve not been built had Armenia been independent since 1918? And I agree that Armenian Science was built on Russian traditions. Thank God. As to the Art, that is a more questionable statement, and we have discussed it in our forum in the past.
As to losing more Armenian territories to the neighbors without Russia, I think this is a very one-sided opinion. Without Russia, other geopolitical alternatives may be implemented. Much of the implementation of the Genocide by the Turks has its roots in the Russian policy of our region. I don’t mean to undermine the responsibility of Turkey in it, and exaggerate the Russian responsibility. One has to also accept that much of the Armenian territories were lost in 1920’s due to the policies executed by Russia – not Turkey. Additionally, the Turkish advancement towards Armenia (in 1920) was inspired, aided and financed by Russia.
In fact, during 1918-1920 Armenia has had an excellent chance to build permanent peace with Turkey. But, instead, Russia and the idiotic Armenian political leadership have screwed up Armenia one more time.
One has to also accept that the only instance in history when the Armenian army has fought against the Turkish army has been in Sardarabad. You know the result. Basically, there is no other instance of Armenian resistance to Turkish army in our entire history, except perhaps the rebellion of Mkhitar Sbarabed, which in reality has been a local rebellion. Therefore, I think your implicit conclusions are inaccurate.
The economic failure of Armenia is indeed a reality. Is it because we “were left without Russia?” I think not at all. It is also reality that Armenia has received much economic aid from Russia – aid in terms of long-term loans. Can you think of anything else? Would’ve Armenia received such loans from other sources if Armenia was not in the Russian camp? I am sure the answer is yes. True, the nuclear station would’ve not been reactivated without Russia. The West, more exactly the US, remains opposed to it.
I don’t want to go into details, but my concluding moral would be that there is never just one alternative. I also would conclude that, by in large, the Armenian history remains misunderstood by Armenians, or better to say, Armenians don’t know Armenian history beyond cliches. Armenians have read few historic novels by some magnificent Armenian writers, and some of them on the subject of “Orhhnvi en shate, vor Russi orhnavats vote mer lis ashkharh@ mtav,” and have had at their disposal the entire Soviet Propaganda apparatus on how Turks would’ve eliminated Armenians if not for Russia. With the help of all three Armenian Political Diasporan parties, the same apparatus has actively implemented the same propaganda with even more success in the Diaspora. In fact, the Diasporan parties have had also additional, different from each other, however, incentives to implement such propaganda.
P.S. The above quote is taken from Khachatur Abovian’s “Verk Hayastani.”
#13
Posted 15 April 2001 - 09:10 AM
But I would say one last thing. Telling me how Armenian army did against the Turkish army in the last ice age does not tell me anything. Turkey has a population of 66 million today.
In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I do not think Armenia will survive without Russia. And it is not Russian propaganda. It is a sad reality.
#14
Posted 15 April 2001 - 09:27 AM
It is very unfortunate that you have perceived our exchange as whatever match. Sure, you are free to have whatever opinions, you are free to defend them, and so am I. Furthermore, all of us have the right to try to refute the opinions expressed by others. And it is my understanding that this is the whole purpose of our forum.
Additionally, it has not been my logic that since we have won Sardarabad in 1918, we would win another battle/war with Turkey in our days. BTW, the USSR had a population of more than 250 million, and yet it lost in Afghanistan, it collapsed, and Russia has one of the lousiest economies in the world. Additionally, as evident, Russians cannot handle Chechnya. However, the pretext of my posting has not been “machoism.”
Also, the “reality” frequently is what we perceive it to be, not what it is in reality.
If anything in my current or previous postings has insulted you, I sincerely apologize.
#15
Posted 15 April 2001 - 11:24 PM
My comment about teh match(which probably was not appropriate) was more because we each have our set ideas and I don't think either one of us is going to change our ideas on it.
There are many other reasons as to why Russia lost to Afghanistan, just as there are many reasons why US lost to Vietnam. (by the way, if I am not mistaken, neither country lost a single battle during those wars)
My opinion is that Armenia needs Russia at the current time. Your opinion is different. I understand.
#16
Posted 15 April 2001 - 11:26 PM
#17
Posted 15 April 2001 - 11:29 PM
However, I haven't said Armenia needs or doesn't need Russia, or any other state. I have only attempted to introduce some factual clarity as it pertains to our history, have made a conditional statement on the subject of "Our lands" and Russia, and my implicte underlying thought has been that we should not put "all our eggs in one basket."
[ April 15, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]
#18
Posted 15 April 2001 - 11:58 PM
As to your comments about "putting all eggs in one basket", my little cousins just came over and all the eggs that were in that one basket are all gone. Happy Easter my friend.
#19
Posted 15 April 2001 - 12:03 PM
So much about the Easter, right?
#20
Posted 15 April 2001 - 12:19 PM
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