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Thoughts about morality and religion


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#41 gurgen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 11:57 AM

Thoth what's your frustration with Christianity anyway?
Yes, we all know Christian 'rules' were written by bigoted old fools when people used to herd sheep all day, and were never changed because of some weird sense of tradition.
If you can't see beyond that than I don't know what to say.

#42 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:02 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 12:13 PM)
I think many unorthodox and not particularly religious Jews (at least those who live in the US and Europe) appreciate Christian values. They would not call Jesus God but they seem to have adapted to the Christian environments they live in. In doing so they have automatically taken some of the assumed values of Christianity.

I find this statement to be incredibly naive.

First of all do we not consider our culture (cultural values & such) to be JUdeao-Christian? And please just where did these Christian values come from? And if they are Jewish (even non-religeous) how could they accept all the Christain propoganda about Christ (unless they are specifically "Jews for Jesus"...and these guys are even worse then Sri Chinmoy followers in terms of cult fanatasicism etc)

Second - you obviously have no clue concerning Jewish folks. Regardless of their level of Orthodoxy - thems fighting words! (to imply that they have "given in" to Christianity)

Judeaism is nearly (but not quite) as kooky as Christianity in my book - but as practiced by the majority of Jews tend to be more tolerant and accepting of diverse (religeous) opinions - then that of the "average" Christian...the problem with both (all) relgions of course - are the fanatics...and I've argued and argues with certain Jewish friends/aquaintences who like to claim that (religeous) fanatasicm is primarily a Christian and Muslim thing...and of course - i cannot agree with this contention...even if, for the most part, I find greater tolerance in/with the (average) Jewish believer then with most Christians...

#43 THOTH

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:04 PM

QUOTE (gurgen @ Aug 23 2004, 12:57 PM)
Thoth what's your frustration with Christianity anyway?
Yes, we all know Christian 'rules' were written by bigoted old fools when people used to herd sheep all day, and were never changed because of some weird sense of tradition.
If you can't see beyond that than I don't know what to say.

Believe me - I wouldn't care if no one else did.

#44 Anoushik

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 12:04 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 06:27 AM)
That's very typical of us humans Nakharar, most of us are really petty and selfish, one can die for ourselves but we will call him a suspect. However, what I have to say is, if you can't be a hero then don't try to degrade those who are heroes. I for myself am not anything like a hero but I certainly appreciate those who have died for me without even knowing me.

Sasun, really, I don't mean to be disrespectful and I appreciate every person who's risked his life for something that he believes in, but don't you think that people who courageously fight for something they are also doing it for themselves. I'm not saying that they are looking to be famous or to be admired but what I mean is that they feel a threat and realize that it's time to take action, not for me and you but for themselves.

#45 Sasun

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 08:41 AM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 24 2004, 02:04 AM)
Sasun, really, I don't mean to be disrespectful and I appreciate every person who's risked his life for something that he believes in, but don't you think that people who courageously fight for something they are also doing it for themselves. I'm not saying that they are looking to be famous or to be admired but what I mean is that they feel a threat and realize that it's time to take action, not for me and you but for themselves.

Monte Melkonyan left his comfortable life and went to the Middle East to fight for the suppressed and humiliated, later on he went to fight in Artsax for our liberation where he died. He could have chosen to live comfortably in the US but he did not.
There are many examples of true self-giving. Why are you doubting? Just look at the facts.

#46 Anoushik

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 12:15 AM

Sasun, this discussion completely turned the wrong way for which I take some responsibilty. I didn't mean to discuss morality in this way. Of course I realize Monte Melkonyan's heroism and so many other people like him and I bow to them.

I guess this discussion about morality started because I object to the idea that in order for morality to exist God has to exist. Anyway, I won't go any further with this question.

#47 Nakharar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 05:29 AM

Anoushik, I suggest you read Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals. It's quite heavy, but worth the read. It's not a book that you can read in a leisurely way. Some passages were really beyond me and caused me severe headaches. laugh.gif Believe me trying to finish those books will shorten your lifespan by about several years. biggrin.gif I for one never believed that morals are contingent to religions like they are trying to make us believe. Maybe Kant was one of the first Existentialists, despite his apparent rigid rationalism and countless refutations made by critics.

#48 Sasun

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 08:57 AM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 26 2004, 02:15 AM)
Sasun, this discussion completely turned the wrong way for which I take some responsibilty. I didn't mean to discuss morality in this way. Of course I realize Monte Melkonyan's heroism and so many other people like him and I bow to them.

I guess this discussion about morality started because I object to the idea that in order for morality to exist God has to exist. Anyway, I won't go any further with this question.

I understand Anoushik.
From my point of view both God and morality exist. However, for someone to be moral s/he does not have to believe in God. On the other hand, at least when it comes to charity, according to the above mentioned research people who believe in God are more generous, i.e. more moral in the dimension of philantropy.

#49 THOTH

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:05 AM

Check the vid...sums it up quite well - IMO....

edit: you can't post obscene links/ Sasun

Edited by Sasun, 26 August 2004 - 09:33 AM.


#50 Armen

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:20 AM

Thoth, remove this link.

#51 THOTH

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:22 AM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 26 2004, 10:20 AM)
Thoth, remove this link.

no way - don't watch it if it bothers you....

#52 Nakharar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:23 AM

Thoth, you do have an interesting way to get a point across.. dry.gif

#53 THOTH

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Aug 26 2004, 10:23 AM)
Thoth, you do have an interesting way to get a point across.. dry.gif

Why thank you.

#54 Nakharar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:28 AM

The rest of the song isn't that obscene. If we could only get rid of the Christian right and the raving liberals. What a pleasant world that would be. smile.gif

#55 THOTH

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:46 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Aug 26 2004, 10:28 AM)
The rest of the song isn't that obscene. If we could only get rid of the Christian right and the raving liberals. What a pleasant world that would be. smile.gif

Its not at all obscene IMO (thoguh I could concede that for some it might be considered blashemous..but thats their problem - lol). I mean is the mention of "Penis" necissarily obscene (and he is saying "hands off it" isn't he? ...except perhaps that little bit at the end...eh eh

I will second your view on (particualrly) the religous/Christian right...and concerning anyone "raving" or trying to dictate/constrict/legislate etc how I/we think and do....

#56 Armen

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:53 AM

QUOTE (THOTH @ Aug 26 2004, 09:46 AM)
I mean is the mention of "Penis" necissarily obscene (and he is saying "hands off it" isn't he? ...except perhaps that little bit at the end...eh eh

Some might view that posting porn links on this forum isn't obscene either. Are we going to allow that? There is a very fine balance in the forum. Everyone knows and feels the borders (at least the mature people) and no one has the right to sabotage it.

#57 Azat

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:59 AM

Winston, I really think you need to stay away from religious topics. you have made your point and most of us get it. I for one don't believe in any religion, but I do not need to come here to ridicule people in this thread. I stay away. you should learn to do the same.

#58 ED

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 10:02 AM

Winston,

for this and similar reasons, people here donít take you up seriously, you knew you can't use such a links, perhaps you might want to figure out another acceptable and respectful way of approach because you are walking on a tight rope here, and take my advice for the last time if you cant control your outbursts stay away from religion related threads.

#59 THOTH

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 10:05 AM

I reject that the link is obscene - absolutly - or that my posts are out of order. If me posting my views is out of order then those who are putting forth their religious views is equally out of order. What you are doing is censorship out and out - and its favoring of certain religious views over others (non-religious). I see nothing at all in the forum rules to justify this. And that link was in no way obscen and I protest your removing it.

#60 Nakharar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 10:06 AM

The word Penis by itself isn't obscene. You might take it lightly or amusing but the first line of the song is pretty objectionable and insensitive especially towards those who are off the mill Christians without any agenda or blasphemous zeal.




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