Jump to content


Photo

Thoughts about morality and religion


  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#1 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 21 August 2004 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 21 2004, 03:13 PM)
I believe that for crimes committed on earth one gets earthly punishment. Any comments?

Some crimes are punished on earth, some cannot be punished on earth, like moral crimes such as lieing, cheating, deceiving and taking advantage of, etc. so someone has to punish for those crimes in a fair environment. Or if an earthly judge is unfair, who is going to punish this judge? (or a president for that matter)

#2 Anoushik

Anoushik

    Veteran

  • Nobility
  • 3,973 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Los Angeles
  • Interests:Armenians, music, philosophy...

Posted 21 August 2004 - 08:06 PM

Sasun, doesn't every crime more or less involve morality? And what is moral in the first place? I strongly believe that humanity has created morality as a means for survival; there is nothing divine about morality.

But what I meant in my previous post when I said that for crimes committed on earth one gets earthly punishment was that maybe, if there is a God, He gives punishment through earthly things, like financial struggles, failed career paths, unfulfilled relationships, etc. (even though I don't believe this myself but maybe there is a possiblity). Otherwise I cannot conceive of the idea of a fair God.

#3 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 21 August 2004 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 21 2004, 10:06 PM)
I strongly believe that humanity has created morality as a means for survival;there is nothing divine about morality.

Survival does not really explain why there is morality. Just one example: a person gives up his life to save his friends life. You may or may not think that there is someting divine in this act but survival as a motive is out of question, this is a purely moral, unselfish act. OK, another example: a person commits a murder for which there is death penalty. Feeling remorse and obliged to cast off this huge guilt he confesses knowing that he will soon be sentenced to death. Again this is an opposite case of survival and a moral, unselfish act.

QUOTE
But what I meant in my previous post when I said that for crimes committed on earth one gets earthly punishment was that maybe, if there is a God, He gives punishment through earthly things, like financial struggles, failed career paths, unfulfilled relationships, etc.


We can see that this is not the case: many bad people have good lives. On the other hand, there is the law of karma.

#4 Anoushik

Anoushik

    Veteran

  • Nobility
  • 3,973 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Los Angeles
  • Interests:Armenians, music, philosophy...

Posted 21 August 2004 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 21 2004, 07:35 PM)
Just one example: a person gives up his life to save his friends life. You may or may not think that there is someting divine in this act but survival as a motive is out of question, this is a purely moral, unselfish act. OK, another example: a person commits a murder for which there is death penalty. Feeling remorse and obliged to cast off this huge guilt he confesses knowing that he will soon be sentenced to death. Again this is an opposite case of survival and a moral, unselfish act.

I don't think these examples illustrate morality. In the first example the person has as much right to life as his friend. If he'd known that he'd die in the process of saving his friend's life he'd never attempt to save him. His dying is just a result of his not thinking clearly at the time of chaos and his unfearful personality. In the second example the person is confessing because of guilt. There is nothing moral about this. If the person had had some morality he wouldn't have committed murder in the first place. Moreover, if morality really is something divine than I'm sure God would've wished for many, many more people to be moral, and clearly this is not the case.

#5 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 22 August 2004 - 10:12 AM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 22 2004, 01:15 AM)
I don't think these examples illustrate morality.

Well then bring your examples of morality then we will see what you understand by morality.

QUOTE
In the first example the person has as much right to life as his friend.


Yes, but he chose to give up his life because he loved so much his friend. To me that is one of the highest morality that there can be.

QUOTE
If he'd known that he'd die in the process of saving his friend's life he'd never attempt to save him. His dying is just a result of his not thinking clearly at the time of chaos and his unfearful personality.


You are wrong, there have been so many cases of heroism, people have knowingly given up their lives. Only in Artsax war there have been so many cases. Just the fact that people volunteered to go to war is a willingness of self-sacrifice. There have been documented cases where one fighter will give up his life to save a friends life, consciously, knowing that he will die. So then you are saying there have never been heros, which simply contradicts facts.

QUOTE
In the second example the person is confessing because of guilt. There is nothing moral about this.

Are you sure you understand what morality is?

QUOTE
If the person had had some morality he wouldn't have committed murder in the first place.

The person was not perfect but in the end his conscience prevailed and he repented. That is morality.

QUOTE
Moreover, if morality really is something divine than I'm sure God would've wished for many, many more people to be moral, and clearly this is not the case.


God wishes everyone to be moral but not everyone chooses to be moral. Where is the contradiction? We are not God's drones you know, we make many choices out of our own selfish reasons, not because of what God wishes.

#6 Stormig

Stormig

    Still water runs deep...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts
  • Location:Je sais pas

Posted 22 August 2004 - 10:31 AM

There is nothing hoo-haa about sacrificing oneself for others, although why it may or may not take place depends on circumstances and agents. Self-sacrifice is observed in [other] animals, too; it is purely instinctual and is not always restricted to mother-young relationships. In the end it is related with survival. Rarely we see or hear about dogs risking their lives for their owners.

#7 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 22 August 2004 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Aug 22 2004, 12:31 PM)
There is nothing hoo-haa about sacrificing oneself for others, although why it may or may not take place depends on circumstances and agents. Self-sacrifice is observed in [other] animals, too; it is purely instinctual and is not always restricted to mother-young relationships. In the end it is related with survival. Rarely we see or hear about dogs risking their lives for their owners.

No Stormig, it is instintctual for animals but not for humans.

#8 Stormig

Stormig

    Still water runs deep...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,745 posts
  • Location:Je sais pas

Posted 22 August 2004 - 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 22 2004, 04:34 PM)
No Stormig, it is instintctual for animals but not for humans.

I contest your claim. Try as we may, we cannot be 100% removed from our primitive nature. I've seen people rush out to others to push them off the street when they were paralysed with fear of being run over. When a member of a team of mountaineers is in trouble, nobody stops to think of whether they have an interest in saving his life or what oath they took initially - they abandon the expedition immediately and summon all their resources to save the person in question. Need I even talk about mothers? These people may be considered "heroes" among the rest of us, but they're actually pretty basic.

#9 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 22 August 2004 - 10:53 AM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Aug 22 2004, 12:39 PM)
I contest your claim. Try as we may, we cannot be 100% removed from our primitive nature. I've seen people rush out to others to push them off the street when they were paralysed with fear of being run over. When a member of a team of mountaineers is in trouble, nobody stops to think of whether they have an interest in saving his life or what oath they took initially - they abandon the expedition immediately and summon all their resources to save the person in question. Need I even talk about mothers? These people may be considered "heroes" among the rest of us, but they're actually pretty basic.

Not all cases are the same. Mother and child case is different from friend and friend. In the latter case there is no instinct involved, it is a conscious choice to die for ones friend, and is against the survival isntinct. If a dog dies for its owner that is a case of instinct as we know dogs cannot think (but this instict is against survival).
Mountain climbers' case depends on circumstances, some cases maybe calculated saving, some may be altruistic saving. I am not arguing that everyone is moral, or everyone is moral to the same degree. What I am arguing is that morality is unselfish, moral acts are against the interests of the moral person. The key in morality is unselfishness. The way I understand, unselfishness defines morality, and the degree of unselfishness determines the degree of morality.

Edited by Sasun, 22 August 2004 - 10:54 AM.


#10 Anoushik

Anoushik

    Veteran

  • Nobility
  • 3,973 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Los Angeles
  • Interests:Armenians, music, philosophy...

Posted 22 August 2004 - 12:00 PM

Interesting site about morality ------> http://plato.stanfor...ity-definition/
I hope we realize that we're discussing some very hard issues that philosophers have been debating about throughout history smile.gif No wonder we can't come to a conclusion tongue.gif

Just one question, Sasun. Let's say that the person giving up his life to save his friend somehow looked in the future and found out that he'd die in the process of saving his friend's life. Do you think he'd still decide to go ahead and run in that burning building or jump in the cold water or donate half of his liver, etc.?

#11 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 22 August 2004 - 01:13 PM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 22 2004, 02:00 PM)
Just one question, Sasun. Let's say that the person giving up his life to save his friend somehow looked in the future and found out that he'd die in the process of saving his friend's life. Do you think he'd still decide to go ahead and run in that burning building or jump in the cold water or donate half of his liver, etc.?

Yes Anoushik, some people have done it. In fact, there have been many cases like that.
Not only that, a great soul like Sidhartha did even a greater thing, in his youth he was willing to give up his life to save a bird's life. It is not a coincidence that he is worshipped. A Hindu king (I forget the name) not only was willing but he actually gave up his life to save a bird's life because according to the moral code of his kindgom he as a king was responsible for all lives in his kingdom including animals.
Again, selfishness and morality are the opposites. Unselfishness is the best definition of morality.
Ethics is a little different, while much of ethical codes come from moral, unselfish considerations, there are elements in commonly accepted ethics that are simply selfish, or were meant to be unselfish but have been corrupted and become selfish.

#12 Ludwig9

Ludwig9

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 138 posts

Posted 22 August 2004 - 01:46 PM

Thanks Sasun for the additional string. biggrin.gif

#13 Anoushik

Anoushik

    Veteran

  • Nobility
  • 3,973 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Los Angeles
  • Interests:Armenians, music, philosophy...

Posted 22 August 2004 - 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 22 2004, 11:13 AM)
Yes Anoushik, some people have done it. In fact, there have been many cases like that.
Not only that, a great soul like Sidhartha did even a greater thing, in his youth he was willing to give up his life to save a bird's life. It is not a coincidence that he is worshipped. A Hindu king (I forget the name) not only was willing but he actually gave up his life to save a bird's life because according to the moral code of his kindgom he as a king was responsible for all lives in his kingdom including animals.

Sasun, come on tongue.gif you're talking about legends and myths. What about real people? smile.gif

#14 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 22 August 2004 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Ludwig9 @ Aug 22 2004, 03:46 PM)
Thanks Sasun for the additional string. biggrin.gif

You are welcome, I am just doing what I am supposed to do smile.gif Sometimes it is hard to separate off-topic posts because they may be not too far from the subject or because they could not make a coherent separate thread. And if you delete some people's offensive posts they will start crying and send complaints to the United Nations.

Edited by Sasun, 22 August 2004 - 07:54 PM.


#15 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 22 August 2004 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Aug 22 2004, 09:44 PM)
Sasun, come on tongue.gif you're talking about legends and myths. What about real people? smile.gif

What part is a legend or myth Anoushik? smile.gif

#16 Ludwig9

Ludwig9

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 138 posts

Posted 22 August 2004 - 08:15 PM

QUOTE
And if you delete some people's offensive posts they will start crying and send complaints to the United Nations.


lol.gif

#17 Nakharar

Nakharar

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,319 posts

Posted 23 August 2004 - 05:22 AM

I have to agree with Anoushik here. Self-sacrifice is one of those virtues that is largely absent in most humans. We are by instinct selfish creatures and that isn't necessarily a bad thing and a few miniscule exceptions doesn't make it to be the norm. In fact I find these "selfless" people suspect at best. One should always consider the feel-good factor and the adulation that comes with it. Not to mention a good way to gain domination and tighten your grip over the pathetically grateful who are dazed about your apparent altruism. I read about the latter in a psychology book. Or was it from our dear pal Machiavelli?

#18 Sasun

Sasun

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,533 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NJ, USA
  • Interests:Art, Yoga, Spirituality

Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:27 AM

That's very typical of us humans Nakharar, most of us are really petty and selfish, one can die for ourselves but we will call him a suspect. However, what I have to say is, if you can't be a hero then don't try to degrade those who are heroes. I for myself am not anything like a hero but I certainly appreciate those who have died for me without even knowing me.
http://janfedayi.com/

#19 THOTH

THOTH

    Veteran

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,610 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:many

Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 22 2004, 08:51 PM)
You are welcome, I am just doing what I am supposed to do smile.gif Sometimes it is hard to separate off-topic posts because they may be not too far from the subject or because they could not make a coherent separate thread. And if you delete some people's offensive posts they will start crying and send complaints to the United Nations.

Yeah - now what is more offensive I ask - someone posting that you deserve eternal punishment (and claiming that you will get such - from their "just and loving" - but very demanding god) - etc etc - for not believing exactly as they do...or for someone mocking such certaintude and rejecting such and calling the person who believes and preaches such a "sucker"...yeah and who ends up getting edited and told to knock it off? Well I find the former to be very nasty and insulting thank you.

#20 THOTH

THOTH

    Veteran

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,610 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:many

Posted 23 August 2004 - 08:40 AM

I totally disagree about the lack of self-sacrifice among humans. But I suspect that those claiming this have never been parents...or have never had to care for aging or sick parents or relatives..etc etc - in addition there are many countless instances of people helping others who are sufferning or are less fortunate throughout the world - sometimes at great cost to themselves. I have a friend (a doctor) who lost her husband (also a doctor) and who still suffers greatly because of a nasty strain of malaria (yes her husband died from it) - that they both got while working (voluntering) in Africa...and their are many many people like them in the world.

I find this Christian concept that all men (and women particualrly) - are bad, evil, dirty, unclean and such to be disgusting and most sad - and to be essentially completly wrong. What a horrible idea - that all people are so horrible and only through the "grace of God" can they be saved...etc etc... yucky.gif




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users