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Who Is A Christian?


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#21 Ludwig9

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:48 AM

QUOTE
Actually Krishna did. There are striking similarities between Jesus' and Krisha's lives and some of the sayings.


there may be "similarities" between , but then again Krishna didn't die for our sins, nor did he have a resurrection. Nor, does Krishna's "truth" bring eternal life.

So, what kind of "truth' is Krishna's ?

#22 onnig

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:55 AM

Hi Sasun,

My claims are only truth not by my own concoction but by what is stated in God's Word. Not only is it stated in God's word but these things are evident in the world. Look at other religions, they either deny sin or they think they can repay sin with good works. The Word of God is clear about how sins can be paid for, in Romans 6:23:

"For the wages of sin is death,"

not good works. If one sins, one must die, not just physically but spiritually and since the soul is eternal, spiritual death is equated with everlasting punishment in hell, and that is literal.

In actuallity, if one is trying to pay for sin with good works he is yet sinning again. See what the prophet Isaiah says, Is 64:6

"For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;"


Righteous deeds are works. And also, Paul says in Rom 3:20:

"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

and in Rom 11:6:

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

and in Galatians 2:16:

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

and so on and so forth. There are many passages but I think I've posted enough for now.

#23 onnig

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:57 AM

Hi Sasun,

I have explained with my own words, it's in my first post.

#24 Armen

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Ludwig9 @ Aug 19 2004, 11:48 AM)
but then again Krishna didn't die for our sins

Ludwig9 and Onnig,

You should have started from this quote. That's the fundamental value that makes Christianity different. It is also called the Mistery of Golgotha in spiritual science.

Armenian Christian tradition has two reflections on that:

Vardan Mamikonian (or rather historian Eghishe): "Imatsial mahn e anmahutyun"

An Armenian folk saying: "Gna meri ari sirem"

Edited by ArmenSarg, 19 August 2004 - 11:58 AM.


#25 Armen

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Aug 19 2004, 10:43 AM)
I'm not surprised eider and not necessarily see it as negative reality, on the contrary I indeed like the idea very much

What can I say Edward. I am happy that you found something that satisfies your spiritual needs.

#26 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:03 PM

QUOTE (Ludwig9 @ Aug 19 2004, 01:48 PM)
there may be "similarities" between , but then again Krishna didn't die for our sins

Well, Krishna did many other things towards the salvation of human beings.
QUOTE
nor did he have a resurrection.


If your guide is the resurrection then here is what I think about it: There have been some cases of resurrection, but the resurrected were not the equal of Christ. There have been many other miracles done, including walking on the water. But the performers of miracles were not the equals of Christ. So I don't think that miracles should serve as a guide to know who is the truth and who is not. In fact, Jesus has warned people against miracles and where there was no faith he didn't do any miracles so that people would not have faith in Him just because of miracles. Ones faith should not be based on miracles - that is my understanding.

QUOTE
Nor, does Krishna's "truth" bring eternal life.


And how do you know that? smile.gif

QUOTE
So, what kind of "truth' is Krishna's ?


If you want to know you should read Bhagavad Gita where Krishna's sermon is laid down.

#27 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:12 PM

QUOTE (onnig @ Aug 19 2004, 01:55 PM)
Hi Sasun,

My claims are only truth not by my own concoction but by what is stated in God's Word. Not only is it stated in God's word but these things are evident in the world. Look at other religions, they either deny sin or they think they can repay sin with good works. The Word of God is clear about how sins can be paid for, in Romans 6:23:

"For the wages of sin is death,"

not good works. If one sins, one must die, not just physically but spiritually and since the soul is eternal, spiritual death is equated with everlasting punishment in hell, and that is literal.

In actuallity, if one is trying to pay for sin with good works he is yet sinning again. See what the prophet Isaiah says, Is 64:6

"For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;"


Righteous deeds are works. And also, Paul says in Rom 3:20:

"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

and in Rom 11:6:

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

and in Galatians 2:16:

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."

and so on and so forth. There are many passages but I think I've posted enough for now.

Onnig, it is my understanding is that one of the fundamental teachings of Christ is to do good. On the other hand, we are all sinful. The from what you are saying we should not do good? That sounds like contradicting Christ's teaching.

Of course, without God's Grace noone can be saved. However, God's Grace is not given unfairly towards everyone. Those who do good are more deserving than those who don't. Do you not agree?

In that case doing good is very important for salvation.

I must say that the idea that the sinners will go to eternal hell is wrong and contradicts to Christ's teachings. We are God's children according to Christ. Therefore our Heavenly Father will never condemn us to eternal hell. Otherwise it is not a father at all. Love is the most important relationship between God and man, and a key in Christ's teachings, therefore eternal hell makes no sense at all.

P.S. I believe there is hell but not eternal.

#28 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE (onnig @ Aug 19 2004, 01:57 PM)
Hi Sasun,

I have explained with my own words, it's in my first post.

It is not clear. Please clarify. What is a Christian?

#29 onnig

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:18 PM

Hi ArmenSarg,

QUOTE
I disagree with that. Chrisianity is all about the human being. Human being and his accomplishments are the center of Christianity. In Christianity God even came down to save the human being. In fact Christianity IS the faith that makes the human accomplishment as its sole aim.


No, in Christianity, God is doing the work, God has supplied the the unblemished Lamb, God opens the unbeliever's eyes and grants faith, the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, has lived the sinless life, the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, died for sins, the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, rose again.

That is what I am mean as Devine accomplishment in which God accomplished salvation, man did not.

Edited by onnig, 19 August 2004 - 12:19 PM.


#30 Armen

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE (onnig @ Aug 19 2004, 12:18 PM)
No, in Christianity, God is doing the work, God has supplied the the unblemished Lamb, God opens the unbeliever's eyes and grants faith, the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, has lived the sinless life, the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, died for sins, the incarnate God, Jesus Christ, rose again.

That is what I am mean as Devine accomplishment in which God accomplished salvation, man did not.

Why is God doing all those things. What's his aim? Isn't he already devine?

#31 ED

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:56 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 19 2004, 10:01 AM)
What can I say Edward. I am happy that you found something that satisfies your spiritual needs.

That’s the discipline, no religion and no politics, just music when it is only music that matters

Just I see a new bread of species emerging with shining swords and very much resemble the crusaders, with a slogan “eider you are with us or against us”, some even are cheering for the coming of Armageddon, couldn’t they be more happy, it’s a joys times for them. and every broken sole intends to find refuge in some organized religious nut structures, looks like humanity has taken a U turn to dark ages, and I see dangerous pattern, especially here and in middle east, so my friend I ask you, since man kind has murdered, raped, robed etc… more of its kind in the name of God then any other forms of death, what do you see and evaluate, why is it necessary to convinced me I’m sinful and my sole has to be saved, no I want my money back, when I was born no one told me I’m sin, I have my own convictions, and I very much keep it to my self, and my 11th commandment,

“thou shell those keep the religion to them self’s”

#32 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Aug 19 2004, 02:56 PM)
“thou shell those keep the religion to them self’s”

Your commandment is not clearly stated tongue.gif (but I agree with it nonetheless).

By the way Edward, one way to look at sin is to look at it as imperfection. Of course we all are imperfect. But when someone imperfect comes forward and starts condemning you to eternal hell and fires, or starts a war against another religion, that's what is wrong.

#33 ED

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:10 PM

I'll leave for you to correct it master tongue.gif

#34 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:13 PM

Hey Edo didn't you have another commandment a few months back? I forget what that was but this one makes a 12th smile.gif

#35 ED

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 19 2004, 11:13 AM)
Hey Edo didn't you have another commandment a few months back? I forget what that was but this one makes a 12th smile.gif

vor mek@ barekam aleher martem, hishuxutyuns davajanume wink.gif

#36 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Aug 19 2004, 03:14 PM)
vor mek@ barekam aleher martem, hishuxutyuns davajanume wink.gif

Edo jan yes alehere chem baits im hishoghtiunn el e davatshanum sad.gif smile.gif

#37 Twilight Bark

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:20 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 19 2004, 11:08 AM)
one way to look at sin is to look at it as imperfection. Of course we all are imperfect.

Yes Sasun, the only way the explain the horrible characterization of a newborn as "sinful" would be along those lines.

But ...
Imperfection is the basis of life, and more importantly, of self-awareness. Perfect things are by necessity dead or self-unaware.

This will be my only post in this thread as I have no interest or time to sink in a "born-again" sort of discussion. yawn.gif

#38 ED

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:22 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 19 2004, 11:17 AM)
Edo jan yes alehere chem baits im hishoghtiunn el e davatshanum sad.gif smile.gif

then you need to go back to healty diet Sasun jan.

now I remember what it was, some may get it wrong here smile.gif but I was in NY was going to drop to NJ to teach you but you went to PA so insthed of NJ i went to MA biggrin.gif

#39 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:27 PM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ Aug 19 2004, 03:20 PM)
Yes Sasun, the only way the explain the horrible characterization of a newborn as "sinful" would be along those lines.

Hmm, perhaps in terms of absolute perfection the newborn would be imperfect, but they are almost absolutely innocent at the same time since they can't do anything consciously therefore they can't do anything sinful or good either.

#40 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Aug 19 2004, 03:22 PM)
then you need to go back to healty diet Sasun jan.

Its a good commandment wink.gif

QUOTE
now I remember what it was, some may get it wrong here smile.gif but I was in NY was going to drop to NJ to teach you but you went to PA so insthed of NJ i went to MA biggrin.gif


I was clever, wasn't I? tongue.gif




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