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#1 Anoushik

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 11:45 PM

http://www.freedomof...ecenter/groups/

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#2 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 07:54 AM

The mindless witch-hunters are back sad.gif Thank God they have no fires to burn people.

#3 axel

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:44 AM

Sasun, do not let yourself be fooled by the charisma or the eloquence of the master. You are on a wrong spiritual path (and surely not a christian one). Of course, you are free to do as you please but consider at least staying away from the group, taking some time off to calmly evaluate your situation free from the influence of its members. Read other sources (eg the Fathers of the Church) and confront these sane readings with the 'teachings' of your guru. Let's say you cut all ties with the group for a year or so so that you can freely make up your mind. Wherever the truth stands and whatever your decision at the end, such a reflection/meditation period can only prove to be beneficial if not strengthening, spiritually speaking.

#4 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:49 AM

Oh man... Axel I appreciate your concern.

QUOTE
Let's say you cut all ties with the group for a year or so so that you can freely make up your mind. Wherever the truth stands and whatever your decision at the end, such a reflection/meditation period can only prove to be beneficial if not strengthening, spiritually speaking.


This could theoretically apply to a person who did not have a choice of not having any ties. In my case, I have understood it gradually out of my own inner capability. Therefore it would not make any difference. The only sure evidence of truthfullness is ones inner spiritual guidance as it is not conditioned by any outside influences. If I understand correctly your second sentence is related to what I am saying.

The trouble with with 'anti-cultist' logic is this superstition that whenever you have a strong connection or admiration of something your mind is surely controlled. What kind of a superstition is that? It is highly arrogant & ignorant to assume that people on a spiritual path are worshipping a cult and have no minds of their own. Perhaps they have watched too many horror movies.

Edited by Sasun, 14 July 2004 - 09:09 AM.


#5 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:56 AM

I just read at one of the "anti-cult" sites how Mother Theresa was called a hoax.

#6 axel

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:59 AM

QUOTE
Oh man... Axel I appreciate your concern.


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#7 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE (axel @ Jul 14 2004, 10:59 AM)
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I am lost Axel, there is no hope for me biggrin.gif

#8 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:32 AM

These people are completely clueless... Al Qaeda is also listed as a cult on this site. They should list Saddam, Lenin, Stalin because they were really cults.

#9 axel

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 09:45 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jul 14 2004, 05:14 PM)
I am lost Axel, there is no hope for me biggrin.gif

if you are on the right path you shouldn't be afraid of keeping away from your master (I don't like this title btw) for a few months. Consider it as a challenge. or are you afraid your inner candle might die off once you are no longer close to him? if so, what kind of faith is that that you have?
Spiritual realization certainly does not come with one submitting his/her self to someone else's will.

PS: my argument has nothing to do with anoushik's post

#10 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (axel @ Jul 14 2004, 11:45 AM)
if you are on the right path you shouldn't be afraid of keeping away from your master (I don't like this title btw) for a few months. Consider it as a challenge. or are you afraid your inner candle might die off once you are no longer close to him? if so, what kind of faith is that that you have?

You are misunderstanding Axel. First of all, I do not have a master per se, that is to say, I am not a disciple. And of course one's inner light can never be dependant on another person. However, some people are aware of their inner light, some people are neither aware nor would like to have anything to do with it. The thing about gurus/masters is that they are not giving one light, they are only helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light. To be aware of it is not enough. Well, someone like Moon (I mean the person who claims to have come to finish Jesus's job, not to confuse with the other spiritual person by the name of Moon) would claim otherwise. Every true teacher has always pointed out that each person has his own divinity (the words may vary but the meaning is the same). And false teachers will claim that without them there is no salvation, that the disciples should submit to their will. If you have read misrepresentations from anti-cultists then I can see why you have a misunderstanding.

QUOTE
Spiritual realization certainly does not come with one submitting his/her self to someone else's will.


You are absolutely correct, one should never give up his/her own freedom. But you are also assuming that I am in some kind of dependence or influence. Why would you think so?

#11 axel

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE
And of course one's inner light can never be dependant on another person. However, some people are aware of their inner light, some people are neither aware nor would like to have anything to do with it. The thing about gurus/masters is that they are not giving one light, they are only helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light.


what I meant by "inner light" was faith. in this regard, people are not 'unaware' of their 'inner light', they either have it or they don't. in any circumstance, faith is not something that may acquired through teachings or discussions. I am quite suspicious when I read things like "helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light". Whether you want it or not, these people will orient you according to their own beliefs, they will insidiously project their own perspectives in place of yours without your noticing and of course will make you believe you are making 'progress' on your own. What they call 'your own light' is what they want you to believe is 'your own light'.

QUOTE
Every true teacher has always pointed out that each person has his own divinity (the words may vary but the meaning is the same).


Well I am not sure what you are trying to convey here. I do not feel I have my own "divinity" nor do I believe that "we are all part of God". That the Holy Spirit may at times work through us and inspire some of our deeds is something quite different but I am not ready to make the huge semantic jump between the latter and the former.

QUOTE
And false teachers will claim that without them there is no salvation, that the disciples should submit to their will.


They are also false teachers that may not tell you this and even say the contrary while effectively making you dependent upon them.

QUOTE
You are absolutely correct, one should never give up his/her own freedom. But you are also assuming that I am in some kind of dependence or influence. Why would you think so?


If you are not, you should accept my 'challenge'. (and read the Fathers of the Church whose insights are certainly no less valuable than that of contemporary 'gurus')

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#12 Anoushik

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 11:06 AM

Sasun, I didn't create this thread to specifically show that Sri Chinmoy may be a cult. This wasn't my intention. Regarding Sri Chinmoy: I have no real opinions of him. I haven't read much about him - only visited his site, which seems nice. I still believe that his sayings are inspiring, even though I think that he's just repeating the teachings of many thousand of years of spiritual leaders before him. Like I said to you before it's great that you've found the spirituality that you were looking for and this world is starting to make some sense to you. I have yet to find it, but I don't think I'll find it in spirituality.

The reason I became interested in looking into mind control and cults is when Domino pointed out the accusations against Sri Chinmoy. I didn't know that there was such a thing as a Sri Chinmoy Center, where his disciples are living according to a strict lifestyle. And reading from one site to the other I finally came to this last one, which I posted.

It is pretty sad when you look at the number of cults, or possible cults. You start to realize that how alone the human being really is, no matter how many billions of humans there are around. Each one of us came into this world alone and will leave alone, and we spent our lives looking for the person who could maybe share our lonely existance with us and maybe, just maybe, we won't feel so lost after all.

#13 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE (axel @ Jul 14 2004, 12:54 PM)
what I meant by "inner light" was faith.

In my understanding faith is the awareness of God, or awareness of ones inner light.

QUOTE
in this regard, people are not 'unaware' of their 'inner light', they either have it or they don't. in any circumstance, faith is not something that may acquired through teachings or discussions.


I think one can gain faith hearing a teaching. The prostitute did not have any faith and morality, but when Jesus tought her she gained faith and morality. In my opinion many people can gain or nurture faith if they are in the right environment and associate with people who have faith. Actually, I also think that every person has at least some degree of faith but they don't always follow what their faith will tell.

QUOTE
I am quite suspicious when I read things like "helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light". Whether you want it or not, these people will orient you according to their own beliefs, they will insidiously project their own perspectives in place of yours without your noticing and of course will make you believe you are making 'progress' on your own. What they call 'your own light' is what they want you to believe is 'your own light'.


Sorry, but this is a common superstition in the west. (I am not calling you superstitious, but this view I regard as a superstition) How do you suppose this will happen? Magical powers? Some people have a tendency to fall in influences, these are a minority who will follow under the influence of anyone. Here we are dealing with mature, normal people. If they believe in something they do it with their own choice. It is like you read a good book and your worldview changes because the book gave you important knowledge and insights as well as inspiration. If one was to call this an influence then it is a postitive influence, it is healthy and useful. If we were too cautious no to fall in any influence we should just stop reading any books or listen to anyone who teaches anything.

QUOTE
Well I am not sure what you are trying to convey here. I do not feel I have my own "divinity" nor do I believe that "we are all part of God". That the Holy Spirit may at times work through us and inspire some of our deeds is something quite different but I am not ready to make the huge semantic jump between the latter and the former.


Here I have a significant disagreement. Jesus has said that Kingdom of Heaven is inside yourself. If you don't have divinity then this proves false.

QUOTE
They are also false teachers that may not tell you this and even say the contrary while effectively making you dependent upon them.


There are various ways to test the truthfulness of a teacher. Dependence could mean different things. If one is relying on a certain teacher's teachings that does not mean that he/she is dependant on the personality of the teacher. This is a wrong view IMO. In fact, the teacher may not even be aware that people are influenced by their writings. I make a distinction between a big "I" and a small "i". A true teacher will never impose a small "i" upon anyone.

QUOTE
If you are not, you should accept my 'challenge'. (and read the Fathers of the Church whose insights are certainly no less valuable than that of contemporary 'gurus')

smile.gif


I will accept your 'challenge' if you could make a few pertinent quotes that you think are useful to read smile.gif

#14 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 01:18 PM

QUOTE (anoushik @ Jul 14 2004, 01:06 PM)
Sasun, I didn't create this thread to specifically show that Sri Chinmoy may be a cult. This wasn't my intention. Regarding Sri Chinmoy: I have no real opinions of him. I haven't read much about him - only visited his site, which seems nice. I still believe that  his sayings are inspiring, even though I think that he's just repeating the teachings of many thousand of years of spiritual leaders before him. Like I said to you before it's great that you've found the spirituality that you were looking for and this world is starting to make some sense to you. I have yet to find it, but I don't think I'll find it in spirituality.

The reason I became interested in looking into mind control and cults is when Domino pointed out the accusations against Sri Chinmoy. I didn't know that there was such a thing as a Sri Chinmoy Center, where his disciples are living according to a strict lifestyle. And reading from one site to the other I finally came to this last one, which I posted.

Anoushik, I didn't think that your opening this thread was specifically directed against Sri Chinmoy. What I strongly object is the website's extremely biased views on spiritual groups. They brand all groups, even terrorist groups together and present all of them in dark colors. They are not honest to present the objective picture as they claim. I have just sent them an email requesting that they add additional information under Sri Chinmoy. If they are really honest they will present both views. So far they have included the views of Sri Chinmoy's ill wishers. There is one false biography of Sri Chinmoy written by somone who claims to be an ex-disciple but his/her name is not even mentioned, not even a fake name. I requested that they include a link to a website where present disciples communicate with each other as well as outsiders and tell much about their experiences. Let's see, if they are really honest they will do that and let the readers make un unbiased decision having all the information.

I am speaking mostly about Sri Chinmoy's portrayal because I know this group better among all others. But some groups I know of are not at all harmful likewise and are included here. I am not familiar with many groups listed on that website so I am not giving any comments about those. Some are really malicious, like the suicidal groups. Yes, those must be exposed, although it is pretty clear that even without an explanation a suicidal group is a dangerous and malicious influence.

But let that alone. Let's see some of their criteria how they distinguish what is a good group/path and what is a bad group http://www.freedomof...TE.htm#behavior .

QUOTE
4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in "tongues"
f. Singing or humming


This is really sick. If you sing, chant, pray, meditate then your mind is being conrolled? Reminds of a passage from the medieval "witch-hunting guideline for the expert witch-hunter" rolleyes.gif

These people are against all spirituality. And I can't believe how one can imagine that singing is a negative thing. One must be exremely superstitious to say that.


QUOTE
It is pretty sad when you look at the number of cults, or possible cults. You start to realize that how alone the human being really is, no matter how many billions of humans there are around. Each one of us came into this world alone and will leave alone, and we spent our lives looking for the person who could maybe share our lonely existance with us and maybe, just maybe, we won't feel so lost after all.


Humanity is always in search of something, you may call it happiness or freedom. Many spiritual people call that salvation or liberation or God-realization, and they are in search of ways and paths. And (true) spiritual groups serve that purpose. They find that one can be happy without another person but with God (they may call it other names like Enlightenment).
Some will abuse these ideals and organize cults of their personality to make profit or lead people to suicide and other harmful things. From a distance all groups seem the same but they are diametrically opposite.

Edited by Sasun, 14 July 2004 - 01:20 PM.


#15 MosJan

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 01:33 PM

QUOTE
I have just sent them an email requesting


yes qo terr@ lineyi cheyi ani da / de lav antsats lini smile.gif menak zguysh dur@ chbatses antsanotnerin smile.gif mek el tesar ....... osama.gif

#16 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Jul 14 2004, 03:33 PM)
yes qo terr@ lineyi cheyi ani da / de lav antsats lini smile.gif menak zguysh dur@ chbatses antsanotnerin smile.gif mek el tesar ....... osama.gif

Hmm... what is the prize on his head? biggrin.gif this seems like a good business opportunity smile.gif

#17 MosJan

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 01:57 PM

vat chi Vat chi du et huysov mna smile.gif bayst te apahovutyn lav bana mi hat gone poli pet dir dran korqin smile.gif

#18 DominO

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jul 14 2004, 08:56 AM)
I just read at one of the "anti-cult" sites how Mother Theresa was called a hoax.

Is there any claims of sexual abuses against her? Is there any charges of her stealing other peoples money? Is there charges that she was not in India living nearly in the same condition as those she was giving hope?

It is obvious that you can't compare the charges against her with those against Chinmoy.

Edited by Fadix, 14 July 2004 - 03:56 PM.


#19 Sasun

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ Jul 14 2004, 05:53 PM)
Is there any claims of sexual abuses against her? Is there any charges of her stealing other peoples money? Is there charges that she was not in India living nearly in the same condition as those she was giving hope?

It is obvious that you can't compare the charges against her with those against Chinmoy.

And as for Mother Theresa, again you are missing the point. Why do the charges have to be the same? They are false charges, that is the point rolleyes.gif I just wanted to point out that one can do selfless service for the humanity for her life, one may even die for the humanity, but there will always be people who will doubt and say bad things and call her a hoax. I don't get it, how you can miss the point... and yes, they are talking about allegations of sexual abuse by Mother Theresa to some women... absurd indeed.

#20 Anoushik

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jul 14 2004, 11:18 AM)
Humanity is always in search of something, you may call it happiness or freedom. Many spiritual people call that salvation or liberation or God-realization, and they are in search of ways and paths.

This reason alone is enough for me to say that there is no God sad.gif




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