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Why Are There Armenian Protestants?


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#41 America-Hye

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:21 AM

I am not intolerant of a diversity of beliefs. What I have a problem with is religious institutions that impose their belief structure on society. When someone like Domino attacks the Church, he is not attacking the word of Jesus but a corrupt bureaucratic institution.

#42 axel

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:21 AM

And I still fail to see what justifies your calling me an armenian "ayatollah" issuing "fatwas". I was only defending the invisible Church. Is that position intolerant? Is it not to be tolerated?

This "hye" forum is rather strange. One cannot even defend the Armenian Church without being aggressed.

PS: You seem to be obsessed with ayatollahs these days. You first started calling Naïri a female ayatollah (this was hilarious, I mean really). Now it is me. Who's next? This is not very reassuring as to your present state of mind.

#43 axel

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:31 AM

What I have a problem with is religious institutions that impose their belief structure on society


No one forces you to enter the Armenian Church. You are free to be part of it or not.

BTW, by participating in a forum and developing your ideas, you are trying to rally people behind them. You're trying to impose your own "belief structure" on the HyeForum microsociety. :)

#44 America-Hye

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 09:57 AM

Axel,

I have never been a member of the Armenian Church. My parents were both raised as Armenian Catholics. I was raised by them as a Protestant, after problems I had with church personnel at a tender age. Only one of my grandmothers was raised in the Armenian Church and she left it when she married my grandfather, an Armenian Catholic. However, since about 95% of Armenians belong to the Armenian Church, almost every time I have to communicate with Armenians, I have to deal with the menatlity that has been instilled in them by the Armenian Church, a place where animal sacrifice is still conducted, a place where some of the views are very backward and dogmatic.

My belief structure is one that accepts and tolerates diversity. I am not trying to force anyone to leave the Armenian Church. It is just that the Church has drifted from the precepts upon which it was founded and has become a bureaucratic, dogmatic institution.

#45 axel

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 10:31 AM

My belief structure is one that accepts and tolerates diversity


That is not true. you do not accept ayatollahs :D

You basically accept people who share your belief structure. There is not much merit in such a position. Orthodox christians are usually more "tolerant" than you are. But "tolerance" is not a christian value in itself. Love is. One does not tolerate what one considers to be evil which is why tolerance cannot exist in the absolute. If it does, it amounts to criminal indifference. For that reason, no ethical belief structure can be based on the absolute of tolerance.

You seem to draw far-reaching conclusions from a personal experience. This is fundamentally wrong.

Your view of the Church as a mere institution is a secular one. This is where you are mistaken. Being physically part of the Church does not imply being spiritually part of it, that is, attending church offices or bearing a cross does not make one a true christian. I guess we agree on this point.

From the same article I already quoted in this thread:

The focus of Orthodox worship is not on the personality of the priest, nor is it focused on meeting the needs of individuals, or on contrived emotional experiences -- the focus is on God. Unlike Protestant churches, in which the church rises or falls on the personality of the minister -- one need not even like the priest personally, and he can still worship in that parish, because we are there to worship God, not to hear a good and stirring sermon. It certainly a nice touch to have a priest with a good personality and who can give a good sermon -- but that is icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

The Church is not the sum total of individuals who are Christians, it is a community. Christ came to build His Church, not to establish a school of thought, or to save individuals apart from a community.



#46 MJ

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 10:54 AM

Arad,

I am not advocating the starting of a new Church. Only Jesus Christ may start one (assuming that we are talking about a Christian Church.) It would be good enough, I think, if others, including the Armenian Church join the Church of Christ.

What I am trying to say is that Armenians are free people, or are at least supposed to be such. They may choose to be protestants, muslim, judaists, pagan, atheists, etc. They can date blacks or asians, can be homosexuals, can marry “others,” and so on.

I am also saying that Armenians have no obligation to the Armenian Church. To the contrary, the Armenian Church has obligation to Armenians and the humanity, and Jesus Christ above all.

I think that the above should bring to conclusion what I was trying to say.

As far as your question of my “definition” of Church is concerned, I get it from the New Testament, in particular Mathews and Acts (I think). In Mathews Christ says whenever two or three people get together in His, He is there. In Acts we learn that the Church is the body of Christ. There are also other similar instances which lead to similar deductive conclusions.

#47 Arad9

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 12:18 PM

America-hye. what's wrong with Animal sacrafice?
MJ are you talking about the cult Church of Christ? Is this the "church" where to be a christian HAVE TO BE Baptized by the church of Christ?

I'm not saying you are not free. Judas was free to betray Christ. Jesus didn't force him to keep on believing in Christ, nor did He force Judas to betray Christ.
Here is where MJ gets his defenition of a Church matthew 18:15"If your brother sins against you,[2] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[3] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven.
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Now let the people be the judge wether this verse is refering to a defenition of a Church

#48 America-Hye

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 12:30 PM

Next sunday WE will have a ritual sacrifice of Arad on the altar of our local Armenian Church. This lamb of God will be slaughtered so that the "Gods" will be pleased. Does this sound like Christian thinking to you??????????

#49 MJ

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 01:01 PM

Dear Arad,

I am surprised that you would question that in order to become Christian one has to be baptized in the Church of Christ. That is the only Church that Christ has established and He has explicitly said that it is His Church. That is [baptism] basically the definition of being a Christian.

As to the definition of the Church, again, I think the Mathews 18:20 along with passages similar to the Church being the body of Christ do shed proper light on what Church means.

I suspect that by saying Church you mean a building with a cross on the top and people in black outfit performing baptism, wedding and burial ceremonies.

To finalize, Church means body of Christ where two or three or more people get together in His name. What’s your problem with it?

Edited by MJ, 15 September 2003 - 01:33 PM.


#50 MJ

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:01 PM

Arad,

I also wanted to add the following:

Juda has not betrayed Christ. Quit the contrary, being one of the most devoted disciples of Christ (along with Peter) he has done what the Lord had commanded to him. If one could trace betrayal in Juda's actions that would be only the fact of his hanging of himself. But when he pointed Jesus to the Roman solders, he did what Christ had earlier commanded him to do.

And if we have to talk about the betrayals, it is the Armenian Church which has betrayed Christ by not obeying one of the Lord's most fundamental commandments to go and make disciples of all nations... How do you do that if you establish "Armenian" Church?

It is interesting that many years ago, in a discussion one of the most glorious Armenian bishops told me that the history of Armenia may be seen as God's punishment to us for betraying the above commandment. I am conveying this just as a food for thought.

#51 MosJan

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:05 PM

Next sunday WE will have a ritual sacrifice of Arad on the altar of our local Armenian Church. This lamb of God will be slaughtered so that the "Gods" will be pleased. Does this sound like Christian thinking to you??????????

Yes :) if we get to have some Xashlama after :)

#52 Arad9

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:47 PM

America-hye I said nothing of sacrificing people only animals. What's wrong with that? Since in the Old Testament if you didn't sacrifice an animal you could not get saved.

I am surprised that you would question, that in order to become Christian one has to be baptized in the Church of Christ. That is the only Church that Christ has established and He has explicitly said that it is His Church. That is [baptism] basically the definition of being a Christian

My problem is you claim only your church is the church of Christ, even Protestants consider the Church of Christ as a cult., also historically the Church of Christ you are talking about never existed until very recently.

As to the definition of the Church, again, I think the Matthew’s 18:20 along with passages similar to the Church being the body of Christ do shed proper light on what Church means


By a church I mean priest, altar and historical teachings of the apostles.

To finalize, Church means body of Christ where two or three or more people get together in His name. What’s your problem with it?


Again you are building on a lie that is not from the bible.

Judas has not betrayed Christ. Quit the contrary, being one of the most devoted Disciples of Christ (along with Peter) he has done what the Lord had commanded to him. If one could trace betrayal in Judas’s actions that would be only the fact of his hanging of himself. But when he pointed Jesus to the Roman solders, he did what Christ had earlier commanded him to do.

Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own free will otherwise he can't be held responsible for his action. Jesus did condemn him.

And if we have to talk about the betrayals, it is the Armenian Church which has betrayed Christ by not obeying one of the Lord's most fundamental commandments to go and make disciples of all nations... How do you do that if you establish "Armenian" Church

The Apostles did go to the nations and Christianized the Armenian nation.

MJ the Church of Christ is a cult their faith is a new gospel that was never taught by any historical church.

#53 Arad9

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:51 PM

mosjan yes shad hamov em

#54 Sip

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:52 PM

... Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own free will otherwise he can't be held responsible for his action. Jesus did condemn him.

Wonder if Jesus would have become so big and famous if Judas hadn't done what he done.

#55 America-Hye

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:55 PM

Mosjan,

Unfortunately, I will not be able to join in the feast, since I am a strict vegetarian. You KNOW how much I would relish to devour the flesh of a "traditional" Armenian, :lol:

#56 America-Hye

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:57 PM

Arad, There is evidence that Jesus and his followers were strict vegetarians, who rejected the diet proscribed in the Old Testament.

#57 MosJan

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 03:00 PM

Mosjan,

Unfortunately, I will not be able to join in the feast, since I am a strict vegetarian. You KNOW how much I would relish to devour the flesh of a "traditional" Armenian, :lol:

it's ok me and siaphan will need no help :)
che Siphanjan :)


MOvses

#58 MJ

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 03:11 PM

Arad,

Since I don’t think that you are capable of conducting yourself properly, and since you have a tendency to make pompous statements on subjects that you don’t know enough about or haven’t thought enough yet, I will give you two references as my last word with you:


Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.


Ephesians 5:33

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

Edited by MJ, 15 September 2003 - 03:24 PM.


#59 MosJan

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 03:18 PM

mi ktor xashlama eyiq utelu en el kartses dzerqnerits@s gnats :(

Hayi Baxta che :(


Ladushki Ladushki :(


Siphan ba hima menq inch anenq ???

#60 Sasun

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Posted 15 September 2003 - 03:57 PM

... Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own free will otherwise he can't be held responsible for his action. Jesus did condemn him.

Wonder if Jesus would have become so big and famous if Judas hadn't done what he done.

I think so. A lot of people used do be crucified, we don't even know them. I think it would be much better if Jesus was not killed. Its not the fact of crucifiction what makes Christ a Saviour, although it is part and parcel of it.




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