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#21 Arpa

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 06:10 AM

I don't know for what goals is this pagan stuff made up today, but it's sick.
Every nation has to pass this pagan step, we did it 1702 years ago.We're in a different palce now. We've lived through it, oh come on. I do not deny that it was our ancient culture, and I respect it, since it MADe our nation, but this deffinitly not what we need today.

What will be the next "invention"? Smth. like " lets go back to true armenian tribalizm?"

Sasun, it seems you don't know the difference between all the gods.
Jehovah is NOT another name for the universal god, it is a specific god of a specific people even if on the surface it has come mean the same. Even Jehovah is many different gods in the very Book where it is depicted. All one has to do is read the Bible and follow the evolution. Without getting into details, on first meets Him in te book of Exodus where he is depicted as "jealous", "vindictive", "warlike", "unforgiving" and the private god of His own people. If we follow your logic then we must also accept Allah another name for that same god. In fact when Armenians used the Turkish language in their worship they used "allah" to mean god/Astuac. Is He the same? I will let theologians tackle that question.
Does it not seem that each nation, each religion, even fragments of the same religion have their own concept of a god?

Which brings us to Nvard's indignation.

This whole thing is being lost in the enormous noise that it has created.
I am not, neither do I think those others are advocating abandonning our present god in exchange for another, they are not saying anymore than Simanato when he said,.... see above.
Regardless what we have learned or think there are as many godds as there are people. I was rudely awakened to this fact when during the first Gulf War Pres. Bush (Sr) invoked the name of God as Saddam was invoking Allah. Are they the same gods?
Within the same religion, even withing the sane sect/denomination people will invoke a god, suppose two families belonging to the same religion/sect feuding and esach in their turn calling on Astuac to be on their side. God must be having a big laugh!!!
Nobody is advocating a new religion a new god. If and when that happens imagine the confusion, if you theink we were confused 1702 years ago, think again. We are confused, we have been for the 17 centuries, or even longer. I may have said this before; Apriest of the Apostolic Church, during a private moment confided in me (to make a long story short): "What does tjat Jew Jesus have to do with the Armenian Church"??? You be the judge.
All one is saying, billions of other people profess to believe in God/Jehovah yet very few of them have totally yielded their destiny to Him. Many people go to war invoking God/Allah/Jehovah knowing full well that they must do the actual work using God only as an ispiration.
Noone is advocating replacing Astuac, only that we redefine Him as to our needs.
Yes Sasun Jehovah is the property of certain people our God is Astuac, no matter if He has come to mean Jehovah, we must once again learn to have HIM to work for US, oe learn to work in partnership, we do our part and let Him do His.
The Heroes of Artsakh may have rediscovered our original god when went to war invoking His name, when they had priests bless their Kalashnikovs yet they did not extend their necks hoping that Astuac will miraculously jam the Kalash's of the enemy.

That is the God we are talking about.

Each nation, every one of us of the 6 billion have their own concept of a god that is best suited for their need...

Which one of them will meet OUR need???

One needs a new religion less than a big hole in the head (if we even need one), let's make the best of what we have. When God created us (some believe it) he gave us a brain, two arms and two legs. Let us use them as it was intended, lest he come back and ask us what we have done with all the talent he endowed us with. To better understand who and what God is read the Bible again this time paying special attention to the Parable of the Talents, Matthew Ch. 25 starting at verse 18.
Whose falt is it when we cannot read the Book as it was intended?

#22 Sasun

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 10:59 AM

Arpa, sorry to say this but your views conflict each other and you don't make sense, at least to me. You call the Bible a stupid book, but you also advise me to read it. You refer to Kalashinikov as our real God. You think that "those people" and you are not advocating to abandon our present God, but both you and "those people" have repeatedly spoken against Christianity and Jesus. I don't think you understand what you are talking about. Don't take this personally but God, spirituality, religion are much-much bigger that your understanding (i.e. that we should make it work for us, etc. You were also saying "who needs gods"... puzzling).

I don't mean to say that I understand it all. But I am sure that someone who truly believes in God will not call some other name/concept of God an idiot, etc. Finally, my friend, if you don't want to believe in the Jew Jesus, then believe in the Armenian Jesus if there is such. But please be careful in what you are saying regarding about other peoples religion and spirituality.

#23 Basterman

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Posted 04 September 2003 - 08:07 PM

WWW.LOGIAURARTU.ORG.AR

VIVA EL IMPERIO URARTIANO!!!

:rolleyes:

http://www.virtualan.../firetemple.htm

THE INMORTAL FIRE OF THE YERAKOOYN!!!

#24 Armen

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 07:04 PM

Institute for War & Peace Reporting
Aug 18 2004

ARMENIA: PAGAN GAMES

In a country normally associated with strong Christian identity, many are opting for the old gods.

By Karine Ter-Saakian in Garni

Standing on Mount Aragats, the high priest waited until the sun set his torch on fire so that it could be carried to the pagan temple of Garni. Thus began Navasard, one of Armenia's oldest and most popular holidays, celebrated every year on August 11.

According to legend, on this day the patriarch Hayk slew the tyrant Bel and freed his family and future generations of Armenians. The combination of athletics and ancient rituals makes Navasard reminiscent of the Olympic Games.

After the high priest clad in a red tunic faces the sun and sings a hymn to Vahagn, the festivities begin with young people singing and dancing, and playing at archery. Anyone wishing to join the pagan community is initiated in a "fire and sword" ritual, and then plants an apricot tree.

Although all this looks like time-honoured ceremony - this year is counted as the 9,588th since the birth of Vahagn, the supreme deity in the Armenian pagan pantheon - the festival is in fact a modern revival.

"We resumed celebrating ancient Armenian holidays in 1990," Slak Kakosian, the high priest of Armenia, told IWPR. "Before that, everything was banned. They sent me to the prison camps for two years for 'nationalism' in 1961, and forced me to emigrate to the United States in 1965. I only came back during the Gorbachev era."

Politically, the pagan community is affiliated with the Armenian Republican Party, whose philosophy is based on the teachings of Tsegakron, the Armenian pre-Christian religion.

But the latter-day pagans distance themselves from politics. Historian Ara Stepanian, who comes here from St Petersburg in Russia every year, said, "There's too much politics in people's lives already, and that's not good. The more people think about spiritual revival, the better their chances of survival."

He recommends that the Ukhtagir, or pagan scripture, should replace the Bible as every thinking Armenian's handbook.

"A thousand copies of the book are soon due out in print, and community members will hand them out to the people. It is not our intention to fully replace the Bible with the Ukhtagir, but Armenian people should know they did not descend from Noah, but that they lived here in the mountains of Armenia before the Flood," said Kakosian.

Armenia is commonly regarded as the world's first Christian state, following the conversion of King Tiridates in the year 301, and its religious identity has marked it out among its largely Muslim neighbours.

But pre-Christian sun-worship still lingers in the national consciousness. As well as the temple at Garni, Armenia also has its own prehistoric Stonehenge, known as Karaundj, or Singing Stones, in the south of the country. A sprawling structure with hundreds of standing monoliths, it was built 6,000 years ago as a temple of the sun, doubling as an astronomical observatory.

In a poll recently held by the Centre for Strategic and National Studies in Yerevan, 34 per cent of Armenians said they consider themselves Christian, 24 per cent said they were atheists, and 32 per cent declared themselves to be pagans. "The slight differences in percentages of believers proves that 1,700 years of Christianity have failed to eradicate the old faith in Armenia," said political commentator Eduard Enfiajian, also a member of the pagan community.

"In Armenia, many people identify religion with the church establishment. Not us. We have nothing against Christianity, but as a social institution, it is not acceptable to us. Religion is constitutionally separated from the state, but in reality, they teach Christianity even in kindergartens, not to mention schools, universities and the armed forces. To me, this is wrong; a person should be able to choose which
God he will obey."

The Armenian Apostolic Church takes an unusually relaxed view of its pagan competitors, considering its hostility to more recent evangelical groups.

"Unlike the new sects, they have nothing to do with Christianity," explained the Reverend Vagram Melikian, press spokesman for the Armenian church in Echmiadzin. "The Armenian Church has an unequivocal stance on sectarians, but we do not interfere in pagan affairs."

Some Armenians manage to combine sympathy for both the traditional Christian church and paganism. "The pagans are custodians of the old customs," explained Alexander Amarian, head of the Help Centre for the Victims of Destructive Cults,
which campaigns against other religious groups or "sects" as they are commonly called here. "The Armenian nation must remember its pre-Christian past, and Ara's Children [a pagan group] help them remember. They also support the Armenian Apostolic Church in its fight against destructive sects. A protest against sects was held recently. Freedom of worship is important, but we cannot give free rein to those sects that impinge on our national identity."

Many young people are getting involved in the pre-Christian rites. Anait, 20, joined the pagan community 12 months ago. "I like it here.

No one tells me what to do. They tell us about the Armenian history before Christianity, and give us books to read. It seems our people are returning to their ancient roots. Garni is a spiritual centre of cosmic significance. Paganism has no rigid rules or commandments," she told IWPR.

Anait, who is a medical student, wears a swastika sign around her neck. Her fellow students strongly disapprove. "For an Armenian, it is appropriate to wear a cross, not a Nazi symbol," said student Ruben. "If I had my way, I would ban all those sects and weird religions. Our church is much too tolerant of them."

"To most people, the swastika is a Nazi symbol, but that is not so," said Gagik Hairapetian, a pagan priest. "The swastika is a pagan symbol. Those young Armenians people who wear swastikas are no Nazis. Only an ignorant person identifies the swastika with Nazis."

A young army lieutenant, who asked not to be named, strongly agreed: for him the pagan ceremonies were all about Armenian patriotism. "I came to paganism quite consciously," he said. "I am convinced that this is the true Armenian faith, and that it helped us win the war [with Azerbaijan] I feel it in my bones."

Karine Ter-Saakian is a freelance journalist based in Yerevan

#25 Sasun

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 08:57 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 19 2004, 09:04 PM)
and 32 per cent declared themselves to be pagans.

Doesn't this number seem unrealistic, mildly speaking? smile.gif

QUOTE
"To most people, the swastika is a Nazi symbol, but that is not so," said Gagik Hairapetian, a pagan priest. "The swastika is a pagan symbol. Those young Armenians people who wear swastikas are no Nazis. Only an ignorant person identifies the swastika with Nazis."


Indeed, the world is too ignorant. Swastica is as holy as the cross. Hindus, Buddhists as well as other religions have used both swastica and cross (2 much related symbols) since ancient times.

#26 Armen

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 19 2004, 08:57 PM)
Doesn't this number seem unrealistic, mildly speaking? smile.gif

Considering the source Sasun jan it is not strange. ACNIS may be a relatively good think tank (in terms of Armenia) for some minor analysis but polls are their new business and they are total amateurs on that. There is a specialized that conducts polls ("Social Opinion" (?) not sure). They are lot more credible because they have polling networks developed during the last decade.

#27 gamavor

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Posted 28 September 2004 - 06:38 PM

Job for you TK! They need translators from Armenian to English! smile.gif

http://www.geocities.com/armenism/

#28 shaunt

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 10:15 PM

Never again shall we revert to worshipping Iranian Gods...never again.

We can thank the preservation of our identity to Christianity.

#29 ED

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 10:57 PM

QUOTE (shaunt @ Oct 14 2004, 09:15 PM)
Never again shall we revert to worshipping Iranian Gods...never again.

We can thank the preservation of our identity to Christianity.



Maybe we can thank also Christianity? I think that would be more appropriate, Iím sure those heroes we have and had thru out our history did not have only faith/church in mind when they went into the battle, I remember reading about Sardarapat battle where priests from Echmiadzin armed with anything they can fight with went into battle NOT to preserve only the Christianity. Same can be said about Crimian Hayrig, Komitas, Nerses Shnorhali, Mesrop Mashtots, Vartan Mamikonian and many others

Some group of people intend to identify them self true out religion, and Iím sure you know who, but Armenians maintained unique characteristic even throughout Christianity which I think Armenian church is a national institution, but solely to thank fait for our preservation simply is not correct.

#30 Artsakh

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 03:15 PM

Armenism is a national ideology. It is close to the "tseghagron" movement began by the great Garegin Njdeh. It is simply healthy, patriotic ideology.

#31 Artsakh

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 03:20 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jun 24 2003, 01:28 PM)
Armenism - sounds like a cooked up "religion" for political goals. These guys do not want to have the religion that was initiated by a Jew (or any other non-Armenian for this matter). Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity.


If you are talking about Christianity, there is a massive campaign being waged today for its destruction by the very same people who you claim initiated it.

secondly, there is nothing "nazi" about it. Armenism is simply patriotic ideology. For instance, in Japan they have the religion known as Shinto, which is based on Japanese nationalist ideology. Do you dare call them Nazis?

#32 Artsakh

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 03:23 PM

And lastly, UNlike Nazism, Zionism, Pan-Turkism, which are all bent on world conquest, greed, thrist for blood, Armenian patriotism is pure and clean. We are proud of our culture and language. We are proud of our rich history. We don't want to conquer the world. WE rightfully want what is ours. We are not after anyone's bread or butter. Compare that to the ism's mentioned above, which are all identical and no different from one another.

#33 Sasun

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 08:01 PM

Armenism is an artificially created ideological "religion". There has been healthy patriotism and there will always be independently of any ideologies. There is no need to cook up a false religion. It is pretty obvious that people who profess Armenism are against Christianity, the religion of most Armenians. Garegin Nzhdeh was not against Christianity, there is no comparison between Nzhdeh - a man of great accomplishment - and empty idealogists of no importance calling themselves Armenists and imagining that they are creating some sort of a grandiose religion.

#34 Sasun

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Artsakh @ May 21 2005, 05:20 PM)
For instance, in Japan they have the religion known as Shinto, which is based on Japanese nationalist ideology.† Do you dare call them Nazis?

Shintoism is not a religion, but a national tradition.

Edited by Sasun, 21 May 2005 - 08:02 PM.


#35 Artsakh

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 12:31 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ May 21 2005, 08:02 PM)
Shintoism is not a religion, but a national tradition.


Really? That's contradictory to real facts.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

Shint? (Japanese: ) is the native religion of Japan and was the state religion of Japan for Japanese militarism in times from about end of the 19th century to the end of World War II. It involves the worship of kami, which could be translated to mean gods, nature spirits, or just spiritual presences. Some kami are very local and can be regarded as the spirit or genius of a particular place, but others represent major natural objects and processes, for example, Amaterasu, the Sun goddess. The word Shinto was created by combining two Chinese characters (??, read shen dao in modern Chinese). The first character means "divine" or "God", and can also be read as "kami" in Japanese. The second character means "way" or "path," and is the character used for the word "Taoism." Thus, Shinto literally means "the way of the kami."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

#36 Sasun

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Artsakh @ May 22 2005, 02:31 AM)
Really? That's contradictory to real facts.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

Shint? (Japanese: ) is the native religion of Japan and was the state religion of Japan for Japanese militarism in times from about end of the 19th century to the end of World War II. It involves the worship of kami, which could be translated to mean gods, nature spirits, or just spiritual presences. Some kami are very local and can be regarded as the spirit or genius of a particular place, but others represent major natural objects and processes, for example, Amaterasu, the Sun goddess. The word Shinto was created by combining two Chinese characters (??, read shen dao in modern Chinese). The first character means "divine" or "God", and can also be read as "kami" in Japanese. The second character means "way" or "path," and is the character used for the word "Taoism." Thus, Shinto literally means "the way of the kami."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

That's what I also thought, but that's not what Japanese people will tell you. Talk to Japanese people, they would now better than anyone else. Many Japanese people will practice Buddhism and also are Shintoists. If fact, western encyclopedias and books have many errors when it comes to explaining matters of religion or what it seems to be a religion. They are simply too superficial, and I can't say that you have a very deep understanding when it comes to religions. That is a source of bigotry.

#37 Boghos

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 04:38 PM

http://www.shinto.or...ng/brief-e.html

Shinto is Japan's indigenous religion; a complex of ancient folk belief and rituals; basically animistic religion that perceives the presence of gods or of the sacred in animals, in plants, and even in things which have no life, such as stones and waterfalls. The roots go back to the distant past. A large number of items discovered amongst remains dating from the Jomon period (up to 200 B.C.) are thought to have had some magical significance.



In early Japan the diverse local practices did not constitute a religious system; there were groups of ritualists, abstainers and taboo experts, diviners and reciters of tradition. Religion and magic centered in fertility rites and purifications; there were local and seasonal festivals and supernatural forces, with legends of creation and descent of the gods to populate Japan.



Shinto would thus appear to be a Japanese form of religious practice which enjoys close ties with people's everyday lives, and which did so in the past too. It does not seem to have had the form of an organized or systematized religion. Shinto has little theology and no congregational worship. Its unifying concept is 'kami', inadequately translated "god". It only became a systematized religion when it was faced with the competition of the newly-imported religion, Buddhism, which reached Japan in either 538 or 552.



The word Shinto was coined to distinguish the traditional religion from Buddhism and is written with two Chinese characters; the first, 'shin', is used to write the native Japanese word 'kami', meaning "divinity" or "numinous entity", and the second 'to' is used to write the native word 'michi', meaning "way". The term first appears in the historical chronicle 'NIHON SHOKI' (720) where it refers to religious observance, the divinities, and shrines, but not until the late 12th century was it used to denote a body of religious doctrines. Since then, for centuries, the relation between Shinto and Buddhism developed in so various forms that merged one time with establishment of 'Ryobu Shinto' (Two-aspect Shinto) and separated them another time with rediscovery of 'KOJIKI' (712), 'NIHONGI' (720) and other early documents, which revived Shinto (Fukko Shinto) and exalted the emperor as the descendant of the Amaterasu Ohkami, the Sun Goddess, or the Great Glorious Goddess.



The 19th century was a crucial turning point in Shinto history: on the one hand a number of religious movements emerged to form "Kyoha Shinto", or 'Sect Shinto', and on the other the expurgated imperial tradition of Shinto became the state religion giving to the Meiji Restoration of 1868 the superficial appearance of a return to the Age of Gods. Shinto, thus, divided into State Shinto, which had been defined as patriotic ritual incumbent on all Japanese, and Sect Shinto, which had expanded enormously as popular cults, including Tenrikyo, Konkokyo and Kurozumikyo. Among others, Oomoto, by expanding another form of denominational Shinto, was persecuted by the then Japanese government for its unique activities which seemed to stand against the state.



After Japan's defeat in World War II, State Shinto was disestablished and replaced by 'Jinja Shinto', or 'Shrine Shinto', which represents the bulk of Shinto shrines at the regional and local levels. Tens of Sect Shinto organizations revitalized their movements and hundreds of new religious denominations had sprung up standing on the fundamental teachings and practices of Shinto and Buddhism throughout the country.



This text shows only a brief introduction to Shinto. Those who are interested in Shinto are requested to contact the International Shinto Foundation for further study materials. Thank you for your attention.

#38 kars

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 05:26 PM

QUOTE (shaunt @ Oct 14 2004, 09:15 PM)
Never again shall we revert to worshipping Iranian Gods...never again.


That's fine, Shaunt.

But please explain, why worshipping Hebrew god(s) is any better than worshipping Iranian gods? Just a question.

#39 Armena

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 09:32 AM

Armenism sounds so interesting it attracts me in some way...

#40 kakachik77

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 10:33 AM

I just read the other day that the origins of Armenian paganism is also an import, this was more specifically about the "Birth of Vahagn", came with Armeno-Phrygians.




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