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#1 Artaxias

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 01:19 PM

http://pub21.ezboard.../barmenistforum

Interesting forum dedicated to pre-Christian Armenia.
If you don't read Armenian or Russian don't bother.

#2 Arpa

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 11:51 AM

:unsure:
[COLOR=blue]Dear Artaxias,
Thank you for the link. Unfortunately most of the articles are in Russian which I cannot read and even then those in Armenian are written in the Latin script which is very difficult to read. Perhaps you can translate some of them, specially those about Haykakan Dicabanutyun which I am keenly interested in.
You seem to be familiar with this movement. How much more can you tell us about it? Is it a big movement? How does the genral Armenian public view thwm? Do they have a large foloowing?
I have said this many times; Why do we sweep our Mythology under the carpet and hide it as if we were ashamed of it? Are the Greeks ashamed of the myhtology? In fact Greek economy (tourism) is heavily dependent on their ancient hitory and mythology. And many other poeple. How much do Egyptians gain because of thei Islam and how much of thei preIslamic heritage?
AS to the reference to Hrea Arakyals, there those here and all over armenia(lower case A to mean tye world community of Armenians)who belive and insist that we are like the Jews, our past present and future are and should be like their's..... etc. I have and still do argue that however I must agree in one point that we should have used the Jews as models and reject Christianity as the bankrupt philosophy as they did and still do.If Xhristianity was good then the Jews themselves wouldhave adopted it, they did not they don't now and they never will since as seen below Christianity has benefitted us even an iota as to the devastation it has cuased...?
Yet again when it comes to religion and other philosophies; It is not the song itself but how WE sing it. Most of the mightiest nations of the world claim to be Christians too.
Below, a sample of some of the items in that forum.

Sireli hayer

Hnaravor e, vor 301 tvin kristoneutyane aylntrank chkar, bayc piti xostovanel vor ayn hayerin neshnchvum er otarneri koghmic, hay azgi mtavor tulutyan pahin (hrea arakialner, asori u huyn yepiskoposner, partev Grigor yev ayln), yerb hay petakanutyan korsti vtang er aradjacel. dzezanic shateri datoghutyunnere henvum en voch te patmakan pasteri, ayl chimacutyan vra. orinak Grigor Lusavorichi depke, vori patvin yekegheciner en karucum Hayastanum. ardyok duk dzez harc ek tvel, te ov e yeghel na yev inchu er uzum, vor hayere darnan kristonya? amenazarmanalin ayn e, vor ayd masin shat lav haytni e, bayc hayers chenk uzum haskanal, te inch e teghi unecel. bolord gitek, vor Grigore partev er, nra hayre inch vor patjarov spanel er Trtadi hore (partevakan arkunikum), vori hetevanke yeghav ayn, vor Trdate hramayec sri kashel Grigori entaniki bolor andamnerin, prkecin miayn Grigorin, vorin paxcrin Byuzandia, vortegh el na dardzav kristonia. bnakan e harc tal, te yerb partev Grigore galis er Hayastan, ardyok na giter hayerin kam hayeren, iharke voch. na galis er Hayastan, vorpeszi vrej lutzi Trdat tagavoric ayn nor kroni midjocov, vor kochvum er kristoneutyun. isk ayd vreje hnaravor er arnel tagavoric miayn mi yeghankov, voch te zrkelov nran ayd titghosic, vore na cher karogh anel, ayl kortzanelov ayn petutyune, vori tagavorn er Trdate ( dzez sa chi hishecnum mer voch vagh ancyali mi patmutyun, yerb V. Ulyanove ir yeghbor mahvan vreje Nikolay caric arnelu hamar artasnec ir hrchakavor dardzatz xoskere, te menk ayl tjanaparhov kgnank, bolorovin chimanalov, vor Hayastan yerkrum irenic shat aradj nman ban arden teghi unecel e). mnacatz patmutyane kartzum em gitekek, 328 tvakanin Grigor Lusavoriche tesav hay petakanutyan kortzanume, vore yev nra npatakn er. hetaga dareri masin chem uzum xosel, uzum em miayn hishatakel katoghikos Petros Getadardzin (isk nra nmannere shat en yeghel mer patmutyan medj), vore srbutyamb hetevelov ir nshanavor naxordin (nkati unem Grigor Lusavorichin) verdjnakanpes kortzanec hrashkov verakngnvatz petakanutyune , Bagraunineri tagavorutyune. aynpes vor havatacek miayn imacutyane yev voch te karozchutyane.

lav yeghek Palian I.


#3 nairi

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 12:17 PM

From what I've heard, the whole organization behind this seems to be some sort of cult. They are not merely bringing back our pre-Christian mythology, they want to conquer Armenia with it, i.e. giving no more room for believers of others religions (including atheists).

Lately a lot of hype has been going round this "House of Ber" thing as well, which promotes the same as Armenism and goes even further wanting to conquer the world. I'm not sure if I should associate the two, as I don't know much about either, but it all sounds a bit freaky to me.

#4 gamavor

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 12:59 PM

It is freaky. Just like any other religion some may say, but the point is to make your believes and your understanding of religion work towards your goals and empower them with a doctrine that will make sense to the others by preserving high moral standards without sacrificing your material interests. This is exactly what the strongest "Christian" nations did. Not that they are more "Christian" than we are, they are just smart "Christians" while we were toooo Christian. We have the doctrine in place, but we allowed our geographical isolation to dominate over our cultural and spiritual life. Inevitably that led to technological and ideological backwardness. Add to that the political complications and you will get the picture.

During the Yugoslav war, a plea was made by the Bulgarian Patriarch to the Serb Patriarch Pavle with the message to reach the Orthodox Serbs which read "Do not Kill", - one of God's commandments. Have you heard such plea from any of the religious denominations in USA when Bush administration attacked Iraq?

#5 Sasun

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 01:28 PM

Armenism - sounds like a cooked up "religion" for political goals. These guys do not want to have the religion that was initiated by a Jew (or any other non-Armenian for this matter). Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity.

#6 Nvard

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 07:04 AM

Good site, by the way, it's got a great amount og mithology.

I've discovered lots of highly interesting things

#7 Nvard

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 07:11 AM

But some of the religion stuff sounds freaky :blink: :blink: :blink:

#8 AriaMard

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:31 PM

Armenism rullezz forever


Arpa

////
I have and still do argue that however I must agree in one point that we should have used the Jews as models and reject Christianity as the bankrupt philosophy as they did and still do.If Xhristianity was good then the Jews themselves wouldhave adopted it, they did not they don't now and they never will since as seen below Christianity has benefitted us even an iota as to the devastation it has cuased...?
////

I agree with you. If christianity was a such a good thing why they didnt adopt. Especially if they created it. Are they idiots? I don't think.



////Lately a lot of hype has been going round this "House of Ber" thing as well, which promotes the same as Armenism and goes even further wanting to conquer the world. ////

This guy has nothing to do with Armenism. He don't even speak Armenian as i know.

No one has the right to create a armenian ideology or religion if he don't speak armenian.
If not some provokators or even worse antiarmenian minded people will do a great harm to Armenia.



gamavor

///understanding of religion work towards your goals and empower them with a doctrine that will make sense to the others by preserving high moral standards without sacrificing your material interests ///

The thing you are describing is the national interest.


Sasun

//// Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity. /////

It is very easy to say this is nazy that is communism. Without knowing hte subject.

Brign me a time when armenians forced someone to become armenian. I will say yes there is a great risk that armenism will become a Nazi ideology

#9 Sasun

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 02:56 PM

Sasun

//// Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity. /////

It is very easy to say this is nazy that is communism. Without knowing hte subject.

Brign me a time when armenians forced someone to become armenian. I will say yes there is a great risk that armenism will become a Nazi ideology

So what is Armenism? Why a religion has to do with Armenians only? Is there a separate God for Armenians?

By the way, Nazi Germans didn't force others to become German, they just exterminated them.

It is funny to read a statement like "Armenism rules forever" :) Let Armenism rule for one day, then we will see if it can rule forever.

On another message board an Armenian who was promoting nationalism said something like "let's take the example of Hitler's Germany who ruled the world". Well, when did that happen? :)

#10 AriaMard

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 03:31 PM

So what is Armenism? Why a religion has to do with Armenians only? Is there a separate God for Armenians?////


THE GOD IS ONE, mr Sasun

And nobody can have separate God.


///By the way, Nazi Germans didn't force others to become German, they just exterminated them.///

have armenians exterminated someona ???

#11 Sasun

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:45 PM

So what is Armenism? Why a religion has to do with Armenians only? Is there a separate God for Armenians?////


THE GOD IS ONE, mr Sasun

And nobody can have separate God.


///By the way, Nazi Germans didn't force others to become German, they just exterminated them.///

have armenians exterminated someona ???

AriaMard, I don't think you understood what I said. Why is this religion called Armenism. And what is it? If this is about the God who is the same God for everyone, then why "Armen"-ism?

You were saying that Armenians have not forced anyone to become Armenians, and I said that is not what Nazis do. I am not saying that Armenians are Nazis. I am saying that this Armenism sounds like a Nazi ideology. Do you understand what I mean?

#12 DominO

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 04:56 PM

We still have not digested the other "-ism" and what I see when I read this thread? Another "-ism" like if those other ones were not enought.

#13 Arpa

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:40 PM

We still have not digested the other "-ism" and what I see when I read this thread? Another "-ism" like if those other ones were not enought.

:angry:
Why not?
What is wrong with "ism"?
The Hindus have Hinduism, thr Shintos have Shintoism.... so on and on ad infinitum. It seems like only we have no "ism". We tried many, with disastrous effects. You name them.
As a rule I am personally against "isms", except when it has OUR benefit in mind.
Ever since we abandonned our "isms", our native gods for the sake of the god of "judaism" (another ism), our fotunes have taken a downward turn.

See below, Armenian Poetry, maintained by MosJan. Go to Navasardian Aghotk by Siamanto, which BTW is my contribution, read the last verse and see what he has to say. You will learn that this "Armenism" is nothing new, Siamanto was a member of the Bagin Society, along with Daniel Varouzhan and others, who had finally come to the conclusion that abandonning our gods and adopting other peaoples' gods had not served us right. Other peoples' gods have their own agendas and their own flock to attend to. Each people must have their own gods whose main function is to look after its own people. Why would the god of the Jews even be concerned with our problem? We know that he has his hands full!!!
As to how many gods there are?
Dare I say 6 billion?
One for every one of us on this planet.
It has been said that "God created man in his own image".
Think about it. Is it not rather that "man has created god(s) in his own image, accordin to their ethnic charatcter and agenda?. Look around you. I cannot speak for all the minor religions, but look at the major ones and see what kind of god they have. Let us not go too far, read the Bible again and see how many gods there are, the OT God is jealous, vindictive, "akn akan, atam @nt atam" (eye for eye and tooth for tooth). His people have always practiced that, they are still doing it. Read the news from the Middle East.
What have we done?
We abandonned all of our ethnic and national gods hoping that an alien god would do it for us. Nobody took that "turn the other face" literally except you who. Nobody took that "thou shall not kill" literally except you know who. And ever since then we have been killed over and over again.
Tell us about it!

In closing. Who needs gods anyway?

How about we do our own work in a way that is most beneficial for us. And leave the gods where they belong, not on the battlefield. Church, temple maybe?.
So, now do you understand what all this "Armenism" is coming from?

And please, let that "nazism" garbage aside. Self preservation is not a sin. Why are WE so concerned and afraid of being called "nazis"???
Are not the Turks the biggest nazis of all time?

http://armenianpoetr...m/arm/2701.html

In case the AM Font is unreadable I will be glad to translate.

#14 Arpa

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 06:53 PM

Furthermore, the English, French, Germans and even Americans profess allegiance to that idiot called Jehovah (god of the Jews). Have they ever extended their necks to be cutoff?
Guess which idiots have done it time and again?
It is not waht has been written but how we the illerate and unsophisticaed idiots read it.
:angry: :angry:

#15 MosJan

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 11:50 PM

yes qich djvarutyamb em haskanum iys amen@ - yev yerevi te reflexsov merjum vorsh baner

ogneq indz haskanal hetevyal@
Azgakron = ???
Hye'i BnaKorn Kronq =??
Bagin Society = ???
GAregin Njdeh = yev ir HAvatq???

#16 Arpa

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Posted 31 July 2003 - 08:22 AM

Sorry MosJan, I lied. :o :o
It is not the Bagin Society, it is the Mehyan monthly literary magazine founded by Costan Zarian to which Daniel Varuzhan, Siamanto and others were contributors.

Below the URL where the following segments are taken from. We may want ro read the entire site for valuable information about Western Armenian culture.
This discussion may be better moved to another subject topic, be it culture, literature etc.

A word or two about "mehyan". It is intimately associated with "bagin". The latter being the actual pagan altar for sacrifice while "mehyan" is the whole temple. It is derived from "mihryan/mehryan", i.e. temples dedicated to the god Mihr which in time evolved to just plain "mehyan". Whereas it was first used to exclusively mean "temples dedicated to Mihr", in time it evolved to generically mean "any pagan temple". Not unlike the word Astuac which originally was used to describe THE Armenian god which after the christianization took a generic nature, to mean any god but more specifically was applied to describe that newly discovered Jehovah.

http://www.sscnet.uc.../source111.html

The Pagan Movement and Daniel Varuzhan

Souren Danielyan, Spiurk Scientific Educational Center, Erevan



At the beginning of the last century in the crossroads of development of the Armenian literature, the pagan aesthetics brought about revolutions. The clothing of the national traditions was subjected to tests by the new expressions of European romantic imagery. This was a unique alliance between fidelity to ethnic feelings and literary systemization experiments of the newest poetic forms. Form and subject opened new boundaries to national literary dimensions. The Pagan movement has been one of the most important aspects of Armenian participation in the world literary process. There is no a second example of this kind. First of all, what is this literary movement about? It is worshiping nature and beauty, sharp contrast between the past and the present, incensing of pagan freedom; all these are gateways for Western Armenian poets. Yet ‘gateway’ should be understood in two standards. The first ‘gateway’ deals with the imagery boundaries: it pours out from the pagan essence of the poet seeking for the beauty of spring. This path leads to the evaluation of the past. He also hunts for the freedom alphabet, which is the second ‘gateway’. Freedom of art presupposes freedom of spirit and ideals. National literary perception pursues borders of reconciliation with national political perspectives, when the ideology of struggle shepherds the consciousness of people into the holy battle and victory.



The two main national and aesthetic levers of Pagan Movement are intertwined and best represented in the inner layers of the works of Western Armenian poet Daniel Varuzhan (1884 -1915).



In particular, literary ‘paganism,’ according to Varuzhan, is an escape from the harsh reality of his days—a marsh, where the concepts of nobility and chivalry, beauty and love are trampled down. He recaptures the vital glamor of pagan times, where strength has creative power, and the man is a hero owing to his strength and manliness. With the loss of paganism, in Varuzhan’s opinion, the Armenians deprived themselves of the ideal of the strong man. They became miserable and submissive. “When are paganism and old victories returning? We need heroes to acquire them, not diplomacy.”



This is the focal point of Varuzhan’s art, as he searches for the hero of the past. Worshiping love and beauty are of foremost importance in his “Pagan Songs” (1912, Constantinople). He considers himself a priest pursuing strength and beauty, agreeing with the variant of compromise between ‘the utilitarianism’ and ‘beauty,’ a system of ideas, which according to the poet is the pool of true patriotism.





Constantinople before and After the Catastrophe: The Voice of Gostan Zarian



Vartan Matiossian, Universidad del Salvador, Buenos Aires, and Hovnanian School, New Jersey



One of the most important and more neglected names of the Armenian literature in the 20th century, Gostan Zarian's life span (1885-1969) covered eight crucial decades for Armenian history. He was active in Constantinople with the Western Armenian generation before the 1915 Catastrophe, then lived forty years in the Diaspora and finally went to die in Soviet Armenia.



Zarian lived in Constantinople at three different periods. He first went there in 1910-1911 from Brussels, after completing his university studies. He was a young, French-writing poet with no knowledge of Armenian language. After an interlude in Venice, he returned to Constantinople in 1913-1914, and renewed his links with the most avant-garde elements of the Armenian intelligentsia. He started one of the most audacious, even if short-lived, literary projects: the journal Mehyan, which lasted until June 1914.



Zarian fled from the Ottoman capital in October of the same year, shortly before Turkey entered the war, and was able to avoid the butchery of the Armenian literati in April 1915.



After living in Bulgaria (1914-1915) and then in Italy (1915-1921), where he developed and important literary career, while at the same time being actively involved in the promotion of the Armenian Cause, Zarian went back for the third and last time to Constantinople in 1921, to try to start once again a literary and intellectual movement. He co-founded a new journal, Partzravank, which lasted five issues, until June 1922.



The Kemalist movement disbanded the remnants of the Armenian intelligentsia, regrouped in Constantinople after the 1918 armistice. Many of them abandoned the city for good, Zarian among them. He accepted an invitation from the Armenian government to teach European literature at Erevan State University. In the subsequent years, he would write lengthily about his ambivalent experiences in Constantinople.

#17 Arpa

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Posted 31 July 2003 - 08:49 AM

You may want to visit the following site for more info. In the meantime the segment about Astuas. He can say it much better than I ever could.

http://www.angelfire...Azgaser/AR.html

ASTUAS
Astuas(Astvats-arm.) is also one of the most ancient deities of the
Armenian people. This name is so old, that even though in later times,
due to various circumstances such as the adoption of foreign dieties in
Armenia, it ceased to be a proper name, rather than disappearing in
oblivian, however, it was preserved in the Armenian language as a
common noun, and is the most commonly used name for God in
Armenian lexicon.

In the last century a number of scholars, under the influence of the false
hypothesis that assumed Europe to be the homeland of the parent
Indo-European(Caucasian)language, have tried to connect the
Armenians with the Thraco-Phrygians. (In this effort they were swayed by
certain cultural similarities that could have existed between the latter and
the Armenians living in the neighboring Hyeasa-Tarhigama region in
Eastern Asia minor.)

Lead by this "migration" theory and based on interpretations of certain
old sources accomodated to it, they have made the Armenian word
Astuas derive from the name of the Phrygian deity Savazios.

Not mentioning for the moment a series of evidences that contradict this,
the derivation of Astuas, from Savazios becomes immensely difficult
even on phonetic grounds:to make the first syllable change from 'sav' to
'astu' is purely arbituary and baseless. We believe that, as mentioned
earlier, the divine name Savas(ios), like the Greek Zeus, is linked to the
name Sibis(Siwini)-Sabas(In the Ugarit inscriptions we find, as already
mentioned, Sapas (or Sabas) instead of the Eblaite or Sibis), whereas the
Armenian Astuas, which comes from very remote antiquity, has no
relationship at all with Savaz(ios).

The Astuas of the Armenian people was a deity of fire. This divine name
(Astu-as) is a Nairian(Armenian) word and it is not unlikely that in the
remote past it may have been connected to the Assyro-Babylonian word
Isatu which meant 'fire'. Astuas, as the principal national deity of the
Armenians (Hayk-Haldi), was the greatest of all gods ans as the father of
all was elevated to heaven.

In the Achaemenian period the Armenians adopted Ahura-Mazda,who
replaced Astuas in the Armenian pantheon, but by changing the name
Ahura to Ara, the name of their national god, they armenianized him and
called him Ara-mazd(Aramazd), reserving the name Ormizd to the real
Ahuramazda adopted from the Pahlavi forms Hormizd and Ormizd.

During the Hellenistic period, introduced in Armenia by the Artashessian
dynasty, Astuas became identified with "Dios-Zeus,the father of gods,the
creator of heaven and earth," and when Christianity came, he was
identified with Jehovah as the heavenly father and the creator of all
things.

It seems natural that in Armenia, after the days of Urartu, when Astuas
would cede his place successively to Aramazd, Dios-Zeus, and Jehovah,
the name Astuas would cease to be a proper name and would be
retained in the language merely as a common noun for God.

The name Astuas (Astu-as), as the name of native deity of fire is
connected with the word -astu-(fire) which is commponent of
Ur-astu(=Ur-Artu), the name of the country(Urartu/Hurartoon), and
Asti-sat, the name of the city that was the greatest religious center of
fire(sun)-worshipping Armenia.

This sanem name Astu-as is also encountered in the divine names
Unag-astuas and Astupini(Astu-pinu), belonging to Hyeasa and
Subarians, respectively. It is clear, therefore, that the attempt to derive
the Armenian Astuas from the Phrygian Savazios, as well as the
'migration' hypothesis of the Armens, must be considered as outdated
misconceptions.

The component -astu- of the name Astuas (or Astu-as) is a dialectal
variant of the component -artu- of the name Ur-artu, with -r>s- transition.
It follows, then, that Astuas is just a variant of the name Haldi-Aldi or
Ardi(Artu>Astu) and is equivalent and synonymous to it.

The form -artu-(Ur-artu) as a variant of -astu- (Ur-astu)is not an
uncommon occurence in Armenian. In some Armenian dialects -s-
replaces -r- before dental plosives. For example, in the Hamshen dialect
the word -mardik-(people) is pronounced as -masdik-, and -kertan- is
pronounced as -geston-; in the Hadjen dialect, -kert'ayi>gasti(both
meaning 'to leave'); in the Nakhijevan dialect, -mard>mast- and
-morti>mosti(both meaning 'skin'), etc.

Evidently,in the Behistun inscriptions,writing Ur-astu, instead of Ur-artu,
was not a scribal error; it existed in the speech of the people. A futher
evidence is supplied by the name Tstuni(erstu-ni)which preserves the
memory of Urastu(=Urartu). All these confirm that the name Ur-astu
contains the divine name Astu(as).


#18 MosJan

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Posted 31 July 2003 - 11:06 AM

Arpa jan iys amen@ haskanali e ( vorosh chapov ) chnayats vor aveli e moloretsnum indz - qich heto k@rkin k@kardam yerevi aveli parz klini.



Harts #1 - mer Hiyk Nahapet@ inch kronq uner ???


Harts#2 - yerb asum enq Hye - kam Hye Azg - inch ne n@ran drsevorum Hye - n@ra azgutyun@? - k@ron@? - patkaneliutyun@? - tsn@ndavayr@? - te naxnineri t@sn@ndavayr@.

Harts #3 - ka ardyoq mer nerkayis AVetaranum - Azg - Yerkir - Haskatsutyun ?? Vorqanov e Avetaran@ yev kam mer nor k@takaran@ n@pastum mer Hye Azgi yev Hayastan ashxarhi pahpanman@ ? - Azgn e k@ron pahum te k@ron@ azgin ???

#19 Sasun

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Posted 31 July 2003 - 11:12 AM

Arpa, I understand that we had a different religion before Christianity and it should be remembered. We should take whatever good it offered and reject whatever wrong it offered. I have heard on different forums about Armenism, but nobody was able to clearly define it. Mostly it is presented as Nazism. Nazism is a very wrong path. You may call it a "nazism crap" but it is a dangerous thing. Not only it is wrong morally, it is also a loosing strategy. I don't need to give you an example. And no, Nazism is not self-preservation, it is rather self-destruction. Show me a prosperous nation that is Nazi.

There was no Armenism in the past, it is being cooked up now for political goals. They want to use it as a tool to enhance the morale of the Armenian nation. The underlying reason is the wrong assumption that our failures have come from Christian religion. That is not quite so. There is not much evidence that Christian values played any role in our failures. In some instances you could say, for example that during the genocide village churchmen preached obedience based on Christian values. That is the only case where you can blame religion. But that is not the true meaning of Christianity, Christ has never said that you should let others kill you.

When we go back in the history and analyse without prejudice, we will see that our failures came from the mistakes and selfishness of the nobility at the time. There is absolutely no indication that we lost our independence because of Christian values. I am convinced that had our leaders been truly Christian we would be a prosperous nation today.

We don't need to invent a new religion. Who is our enemy? Our enemy is not Christ. Our enemy is greed, selfishness, arrogance, lack of integrity, dishonesty, lack of love and respect to each other, lack of compassion - all things that result from lack of spirituality, and all things that are denounced by true Christianity.

And what is your problem with Jehovah? It is just one name of the universal God.

#20 Nvard

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:46 AM

I don't know for what goals is this pagan stuff made up today, but it's sick.
Every nation has to pass this pagan step, we did it 1702 years ago.We're in a different palce now. We've lived through it, oh come on. I do not deny that it was our ancient culture, and I respect it, since it MADe our nation, but this deffinitly not what we need today.

What will be the next "invention"? Smth. like " lets go back to true armenian tribalizm?"




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