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God exists!


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#21 Guest__*

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Posted 11 November 2000 - 12:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Artur:
I was thinking about the question who Invented God?

What I meant by that was the possibility humans invented God.

Whether people believe or not, if everyone lived by the New Testament, this world would be a better place. Somehow, humans have been killing each other over Jesus' message of love for centuries.




[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 10, 2000).]

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 10:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Iranyar:
I agree with you, I also suggested that it is above religions, it is a matter of spirituality, the human rationality is bound with the time and space, we are not able to give answer to the spirituality, using our human rationality. Spiiritualitis dimensions are infinitive, as I gave the example from the evangelie of Johannes.


"From the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God".

Iranyar joon,
There is a very interesting difference in the Armenian and Greek traslations of this passage compared to English and all the other languages.
In Armenian "the word" is translated as "ban", and it's not meaning "word". It is something more sensible than "word". To give you the meaning of its Armenian traslation I'll have to combine "thing-word-eternity-work-activity-it". And in Armenian it doesn't sound indefinite. In Greek too, they use "logos" for translation. I don't know how is it in Jewish, but English sounds poor

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 10:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Pilafhead:
What I meant by that was the possibility humans invented God.

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 10, 2000).]



Mike, you may very well be correct in saying that people have invented the concept of the God. But it still doesn't imply that God doesn't exist regardless of people's inventions.

Berj, I would also add another meaning to the word "bun" - thought.

P.S. That's where the word "banakanutiun" in Armenian comes from, I think.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited November 13, 2000).]

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 11:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Pilafhead:
What I meant by that was the possibility humans invented God.

Whether people believe or not, if everyone lived by the New Testament, this world would be a better place. Somehow, humans have been killing each other over Jesus' message of love for centuries.

[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 10, 2000).]


Mike,
I have a question for you. What would have happened if the whole world would have lived by New Testament? Please, imagine that for some minutes. Than tell yourself what would have been missing from our life.

P.S. I'm not insane and we're not meditating online But really, let's see what a mathematician will answer.

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 11:06 AM

Thank you MJ, I somehow forgot "thought" in "bun"-s meaning.

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 11:07 AM

At the risk of jumping ahead of Mike, let me say, Berj, that the sin would be missing in our lives under that scenario. And the sin is so sweet...

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 11:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
What would have happened if the whole world would have lived by New Testament?

Are you arguing against the world living by the book of your religion? I'm not sure the point of your question. My point is that if more people were Christians in that they followed, and strove to live by, the teachings of Christ, we'd be much better off. This doesn't require belief in Christ as the living son of a living God.

Did I miss something in the New Testament? Isn't the gist of the New Testament simply "love"??? Didn't the New Testament take the world from a vengeful God requiring blood sacrificies to a loving God?

P.S. No human can absolutely live by the teachings of Christ--we can only strive.



[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited November 13, 2000).]

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Posted 13 November 2000 - 11:58 AM

Oh no! Not these religion debates again! I mean, who was silly enough to actually START all this stuff!

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Posted 14 November 2000 - 01:42 AM

When I am angry, when I feel alone, when I feel betrayed , when I feel hate , when I feel .......
Reading the Bible , going into the meanings of the words, going deep inside God ,this keeps me going....
His presence gives me strength to continue.
When we are strong we tend to forget Him, but when we need Him , He is always there.

P.S.
I once read that religion is the opium of the poor. Well, you figure out....

#30 Guest__*

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Posted 14 November 2000 - 08:22 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
"From the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God".

Iranyar joon,
There is a very interesting difference in the Armenian and Greek traslations of this passage compared to English and all the other languages.
In Armenian "the word" is translated as "ban", and it's not meaning "word". It is something more sensible than "word". To give you the meaning of its Armenian traslation I'll have to combine "thing-word-eternity-work-activity-it". And in Armenian it doesn't sound indefinite. In Greek too, they use "logos" for translation. I don't know how is it in Jewish, but English sounds poor


Berj jan,

I understand what you say Logos in Greek is more than word onley it has something more, more essence.
In Persian they have translated that to Kalame which is Arabic or semitic anyhow, I had a talk with some friends if the puritan Persian translation should use Vazh (word) or Cm (thema, meaning) but thannks to you I see that it is best approachable by the concept Hvarvatat which Zarathustra used, so it better be translated into Persian by xordad.
It is very intersting to reasearch the relationship between the Gathas of Zarathustra and the new Testament, however religious fantics don't like this suggestion.

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Posted 16 November 2000 - 04:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
"In Armenian "the word" is translated as "ban", and it's not meaning "word". It is something more sensible than "word". To give you the meaning of its Armenian traslation I'll have to combine "thing-word-eternity-work-activity-it". And in Armenian it doesn't sound indefinite. In Greek too, they use "logos" for translation. I don't know how is it in Jewish, but English sounds poor



I just realised that the Armenian "Ban" maybe is from the same root as the new Persian "Pand".

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Posted 10 May 2001 - 04:26 PM

I just want to know who is Athe, believer or an agnostic here ?

Berj, are you underestimating Human intelligence by implying that they could not have invented bread ?

#33 Berj

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Posted 11 May 2001 - 04:18 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Domino:

Berj, are you underestimating Human intelligence by implying that they could not have invented bread ?



Hello Domino,

The idea of milling the corn for the sake of gathering enough flour to make bake smth. you're not sure about (that's how the first inventor of bread must have thought) is equivalent to the logic of the invention of atomic bomb or similar. This denies the evolution of human brain starting from Bronze Age all the way to 20th century. Well may be it didn't develop from the Dark Age to Bronze Age as well. So, Darvin's monkeys and we have similar quality of logic. This sounds unacceptable to me

Regards,

P.S. How did you dig out this topic

#34 Berj

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Posted 11 May 2001 - 04:22 AM

Domino, please don't tell me it was invented accidentally. The list of accidental inventions during history makes a huge statistics, which is an interesting subject itself.

Bye for now.

#35 Azat

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Posted 11 May 2001 - 09:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
Who invented how to make bread?

Berj,
I am not sure if you are interested in the invention of the bread or the existence of God. If bread, than I do not think that it was an accident. I am one of those people who believe that humans invented everything that we see around us. I cannot argue with anyone if this is right or wrong, it's just my belief.

Here is what "historians" believe happened.

There is no one person or date attributed to the "invention" of bread, but there are certain events that would lead us to the people who invented bread.

Man discovered fire half a million years ago and cereals were probably roasted over open fires at least 100,000 years ago. Cereals were first cultivated in the Middle East 10,000 years ago. Wheat and rice were probably the most widespread and still provide 40% of the world's food.

Wheat is now the most widely used of all. It is highly nutritious, containing the protein, carbohydrate and many of the vitamins needed for a healthy diet. These advantages are shared by other cereals but wheat differs from them in an important way - it makes the best bread. Because humans have been eating wheat for ten thousand years our bodies have learnt to make the enzymes and other physical mechanisms necessary to digest it.

c 8000 BC.
At first grain was crushed by hand with pestle and mortar. In Egypt a simple grinding stone (quern) was developed. All bread was unleavened, there were no raising agents and bread was made from a mixed variety of grains. Today's equivalents are Indian chapattis and Mexican tortillas.

c 5000 - 3700 BC.
Egypt developed grain production along the fertile banks of the Nile. Grain became a staple food and spread to the Balkans and throughout Europe, eventually being cultivated in Britain.

c 3000 BC.
Tougher wheat varieties were developed and the baking of bread became a skill in Egypt along with brewing beer. In this warm climate wild yeasts were attracted to multi-grain flour mixtures and bakers experimented with leavened doughs.

The Egyptians invented the closed oven and bread assumed great significance. Homage was paid to Osiris, the god of grain, and bread was used instead of money; the workers who built the pyramids were paid in bread.

c 2300 BC.
In India grain cultivation began along the Indus valley.

c 1500 BC.
Horses took over ploughing from men, using the first iron ploughshares.

c 1050 BC.
The south of England became a centre of agriculture - barley and oats were grown freely; by 500 BC wheat in Britain started to become important.

c 1000 BC.
In Rome risen, yeasted bread became popular and by 500 BC a circular quern was developed - a circular stone wheel turned on another which was fixed. This was the basis of all milling until the industrial revolution in the 19th century and is still the way stoneground flour is produced today.

c 450 BC.
In Greece the watermill was invented, although it was a few centuries before its significance was fully realised.

c 150 BC.
In Rome the first bakers' guilds were formed and well-to-do Romans insisted on the more exclusive and expensive white bread - a preference which persists in Europe and English speaking countries to this day. A Roman invented the first mechanical dough-mixer, powered by horses and donkeys.

c 55 BC.
Romans invaded Britain where wheat was still being crushed by hand and baked over open fires. More sophisticated techniques were introduced, including watermills.

c 40 BC.
Bread and politics. In Rome the authorities decreed that bread should be distributed free to all adult males.

and on and on and on.

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Posted 11 May 2001 - 04:28 PM

Sorry Berj, Azat post makes more sense to me. I'm not questioning the existance of God here.(even if I may question it elswere wathever, maybe not...) The question of who invented bread seam to me like the question, "How the pyramide's have been build, and by who ?" Its like underestimating human capabilities. I believe everything invented(on Earth) has been invented by man.

#37 Berj

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 01:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:
Berj,
I am not sure if you are interested in the invention of the bread or the existence of God. If bread, than I do not think that it was an accident. I am one of those people who believe that humans invented everything that we see around us. I cannot argue with anyone if this is right or wrong, it's just my belief.



Dear Azat,

Thank you for the info.

I'm interested in the comparison of the logic which led to the invention of bread (I'm just picking one example) and p.e. atomic bomb. Please, note, I'm not speaking about the tools that were invented to make the bread or the bomb, but simply the products themselves. Surely, each of these inventions registered a historic process with different stages in different regions of the world (I'm not sure, but as much as I know the theory, thechnical solutions and the implementation of the invention of the bomb took place in England, France, Germany, USA, etc.). But there must have been a single person (like Oppengaimer in case of the bomb) who combined all the previous experience to make the product, right? Besides this, in case of both products, there have been breakthrough stages. In case of bread I think it has been the decision to mill the corn to collect the tiny amount of flour in each corn of wheat or whatever cereal was used. I'm sure there have been a similar breakthrough stage in the invention of the bomb. Perhaps, someone with physics background could help us with this.

Now. If we compare the breakthrough stages in both inventions, it may be proved that the amount, direction, sharpness etc. of the logic involved in both cases may have been similar.

My first questions are: how do you explain the existence of human brain of similar quality in p.e. Roman times and 1940s. Isn't it against Darvin theory of evolution?

#38 Berj

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 01:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Domino:

1.Sorry Berj, Azat post makes more sense to me.
2.Its like underestimating human capabilities.



1.No need to be sorry, Domino.
2.I'm not underestimating them. But it's obvious that the human brain power is limited. After all, we still don't know where we come from, where are we going, who's really in charge of all of this, where is the start of starts and the end of ends.

[ May 13, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

#39 Azat

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 07:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
My first questions are: how do you explain the existence of human brain of similar quality in p.e. Roman times and 1940s. Isn't it against Darvin theory of evolution?


Berj jan,
I am sorry, but I followed everything you said except this last statement. Wouldn't this be exactly Darwin's Theory of evolution. Survival of the fittest? (smartest, strongest)?

Does this not mean that people in the 1940 were smarter and all that to be able to invent the bomb?

Maybe I am all wrong and I did not understand your above question. I apologize in advance if I did not understand you.

#40 Pilafhead

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Posted 13 May 2001 - 07:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Berj:
P.S. How did you dig out this topic


Man Berj, are you right!




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