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#41 Sasun

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE(Arpa @ Feb 14 2006, 07:08 PM) View Post
The reason why in medical emergency cases the ambulance will take one to the nearest church or an evangelist’s TV studio.
That is why Christian Science reading rooms are under the dept. of health and welfare The reason why exorcism and other mumbo jumbo covered by most health insurance companies. In case we may have forgotten mental illness is caused by demons and physical sickness by bad wind. The reason why we “beat the devil out” of the mentally ill and we “beat the sh*t out” of physically ill. And all those are covered by medical insurance, Medicaid and Medicare.
And finally, the reason why in Armenia having one’s head read over is considered medical practice, and medical students are taught grabar so they can read the Narek over their patients. That is where the Armenian saying gna glokh@d kartal tur comes from.

This may seem like a good opportunity to be cynical but you are missing the point and lacking the logic as usual. Spiritual healing does not deny medical healing, at least in my understanding. I believe I have not claimed otherwise, so you should not conclude any of your cynical comments from what I said.

Perhaps this will introduce some logic to you, unless you miss it again.
QUOTE
As to healing, it is an observed fact because you can see somebody is sick then somebody else heals him and he is no longer sick. I call it an observed fact. Often it is also repatedly observed which makes it a more reliable observation.

Edited by Sasun, 14 February 2006 - 06:39 PM.


#42 Vanetsi

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:04 PM

QUOTE(Ludwig9 @ Feb 14 2006, 10:17 AM) View Post
Hello Vanetsi,

I agree with you with regarding the supposed "Christians" who turn Christianity into something you would buy on the Home Shopping Network, but I disagree with you regarding a persons heart that defines their faith, because the heart, just like the mind, can be tricked.



Hi Ludwig,

What I meant was that it is important that a person has the right belief (and yes, there is indeed a right one-- one with many takes) in their heart. You're right about someone being fooled; it could happen. But my point is that anyone could be faithful. If what you're saying is that the sacraments play a big role, then I do agree with you.

#43 Takoush

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE(Sasun @ Feb 14 2006, 07:24 PM) View Post
This may seem like a good opportunity to be cynical but you are missing the point and lacking the logic as usual.[b] Spiritual healing does not deny medical healing, at least in my understanding.[/] I believe I have not claimed otherwise, so you should not conclude any of your cynical comments from what I said.

Perhaps this will introduce some logic to you, unless you miss it again.

Sasun jan; I actually know people who had cancer and through healing prayers their cancer cells were dramatically minimized then gone altogether. I know through prayers in unison cases as such has happened. smile.gif

#44 Djrak

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 01:09 AM

QUOTE(Anahid Takouhi @ Feb 14 2006, 11:20 PM) View Post
Sasun jan; I actually know people who had cancer and through healing prayers their cancer cells were dramatically minimized then gone altogether. I know through prayers in unison cases as such has happened. smile.gif


Many people get healed in payers, from the slightest neck pain to cancer. I've seen handicapped people stand up, i've seen people who cant hear, hear in Jesus' name... it happens almost everyday here in our prayers . The Lord is mercyful.

Without faith the "mortal" or "spiritually dead" human mind cannot comprehend or accept this. I know i didn't before coming to Christ.

#45 aSoldier

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 01:10 AM

QUOTE(Djrak @ Feb 15 2006, 06:09 PM) View Post
Many people get healed in payers, from the slightest neck pain to cancer. I've seen handicapped people stand up, i've seen people who cant hear, hear in Jesus' name... it happens almost everyday here in our prayers . The Lord is mercyful.

Without faith the "mortal" or "spiritually dead" human mind cannot comprehend or accept this. I know i didn't before coming to Christ.


Amen.

#46 Djrak

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 01:21 AM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Feb 14 2006, 11:01 AM) View Post
Faith alone doesn't mean a thing. You can claim and shout that you are "led by the Lord's Spirit" all day, and be the worst kind of crook and deciever. Belief doesn't justify behaviour.

I think lots of rotten species are being mistaken for Jesus' "fruit".


I agree, there are a lot of false teachers out there. That doesnt mean they're all fakes. But I know one thing: If something is from God (not men) it will bear much fruit, so much that the devil will go mad and play with people's minds so they can attack them. But those with a firm faith will not be moved.

It is impossible to bring anything to its completion and success without Christ. And I mean anything.

I use to start many projects of my own and always either get bored halfway or stop liking it or fail or just not be satisfied with it or the accomplishment after it's done. With Jesus everything's beatiful and smooth. The Lord is very generous, His blessings have no end.

Faith is not a theoretical thing it is an actual function in human beings. Something that needs to be fed and trained. It is the God-man connection without which our lives are empty and dry. The only reason why anyone would not believe in the miracles of the Lord is that the devil has blinded them. They are spiritually asleep. Only Christ is the light of the world. Only He can enlighten our entire being and lead us to salvation.

Edited by Djrak, 15 February 2006 - 01:23 AM.


#47 aSoldier

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 01:41 AM

QUOTE(Djrak @ Feb 15 2006, 06:21 PM) View Post
If something is from God (not men) it will bear much fruit, so mulch that the devil will go mad and pay with people's minds so they can attack them. But those with a firm faith will not be moved.

It is impossible to bring anything to its completion and success without Christ. And I mean anything.

I use to start many projects of my own and always either get bored halfway or stop liking it or fail or just not be satisfied with it or the accomplishment after it's done. With Jesus everything's beatiful and smooth. The Lord is very generous, His blessings have no end.

Faith is not a theoretical thing it is an actual function in human beings. Something that needs to be fed and trained. It is the God-man connection without which our lives are empty and dry. The only reason why anyone would not believe in the miracles of the Lord is that the devil has blinded them. They are spiritually asleep. Only Christ is the light of the world. Only He can enlighten our entire being and lead us to salvation.


AMEN.

Took the words right out of my mouth, or should I say, typed the words right out of my hands smile.gif

Edited by sSebB, 15 February 2006 - 01:42 AM.


#48 Sip

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:11 AM

QUOTE(Djrak @ Feb 15 2006, 01:21 AM) View Post
I use to start many projects of my own and always either get bored halfway or stop liking it or fail or just not be satisfied with it or the accomplishment after it's done. With Jesus everything's beatiful and smooth. The Lord is very generous, His blessings have no end.


Maybe Microsoft will add a new Jesus App Wizzard to the next version of the .Net framework to get big-budget corporate projects started. lol.gif

Sorry it's a bad joke but I just couldn't resist. I've turned to Jesus many times before but he has NEVER been of any help when it comes to debugging Visual C sad.gif

#49 Djrak

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:52 AM

QUOTE(Sip @ Feb 15 2006, 02:11 AM) View Post
I've turned to Jesus many times before but he has NEVER been of any help when it comes to debugging Visual C sad.gif


That's because you don't trust Him completely.

And i'm not joking!

#50 Djrak

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 03:02 AM

QUOTE(sSebB @ Feb 15 2006, 01:41 AM) View Post
Took the words right out of my mouth, or should I say, typed the words right out of my hands smile.gif


Christ's Body (the Church) is the greatest thing there is on earth smile.gif

#51 Sip

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 03:08 AM

QUOTE(Djrak @ Feb 15 2006, 03:02 AM) View Post
Christ's Body (the Church) is the greatest thing there is on earth smile.gif


Have you ever been to the buffet in Bellagio (Vegas)? eek.gif

#52 Djrak

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 04:14 AM

QUOTE(Sip @ Feb 15 2006, 03:08 AM) View Post
Have you ever been to the buffet in Bellagio (Vegas)? eek.gif

I have a friend. His name's John. He uses "humor" as a defense mechanism. I wish he'd stop so he can find his Life.
he has a lot of issues and he uses "jokes" as a mask to hide his emotions and wounds. I see right thru him and only pray for him because what he is doing to himself is terrible although all that people see is a "happy" and "joyful" person on the outside. Inside there's a monster he doesnt know how to tame.
Somehow you remind me of him Sip. You even look like him ( if that's your actual pic in your avatar)

Edited by Djrak, 15 February 2006 - 04:15 AM.


#53 aSoldier

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 04:39 AM

Sip, if I hadn't seen your pic I'd think you were an immature teenager happy.gif

#54 Sip

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 09:43 AM

Sometimes people use humor to avoid directly insulting others. The picture is of me but it is somewhat edited with the cheese and the packer's jersey.

For a long time I thought people like you were joking with the Jesus talk. But the scary thing is sometimes it seems like you actually believe everything you say. And that is faaar more disturbing than how you look down on everyone else sad.gif

My "wound" stems from seeing Jesus and God used as punchline to somehow justify every little thing done in life ... when in fact we as humans should give ourselves faaaaaaaar more credit than you do. Everything that goes well you attribute to Jesus. Of course no one will ever be able to compete with that! Then when something goes wrong, you blame yourself (or the devil).

Come on! Wake up and take some responsibility for your SELF.

Edited by Sip, 15 February 2006 - 09:45 AM.


#55 Djrak

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE(Sip @ Feb 15 2006, 09:43 AM) View Post
Sometimes people use humor to avoid directly insulting others. The picture is of me but it is somewhat edited with the cheese and the packer's jersey.

For a long time I thought people like you were joking with the Jesus talk. But the scary thing is sometimes it seems like you actually believe everything you say. And that is faaar more disturbing than how you look down on everyone else sad.gif

My "wound" stems from seeing Jesus and God used as punchline to somehow justify every little thing done in life ... when in fact we as humans should give ourselves faaaaaaaar more credit than you do. Everything that goes well you attribute to Jesus. Of course no one will ever be able to compete with that! Then when something goes wrong, you blame yourself (or the devil).

Come on! Wake up and take some responsibility for your SELF.


my SELF is my enemy Sip, something I discovered after 25 years of living to satisfy it.
And can you please tell me when exactly I looked down on anyone? And if I did I'm sorry it must have been my SELF which still creeps up from time to time ( much less than before thanks to my Savior and King)

"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." - John 12:14

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Your pride (or desire to attribute all to your SELF) is what is keeping you from real LIFE
And I am not "giving faaaaaar more credit" to Jesus, you are taking away all of that from Him.
What seems scary to you is only scary because it is threatening your SELF. But your SOUL yearns for it all the time. It is called LIFE. It is food and water for your SOUL. But LIFE to your SOUL means DEATH to your SELF. And you have complete freedom to choose my friend.

Edited by Djrak, 15 February 2006 - 10:15 AM.


#56 Zartonk

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:30 AM

QUOTE
Do you mean to say that healing spiritually is impossible? Or televangelists can't possibly heal people?


I said physical for a reason, as in curing a physical illness; instantaneous "faith heeling". Spiritual self-improvement falls under something else.

#57 Zartonk

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:51 AM

QUOTE
Zartonk, anyone who knows me knows well that I am the last person to buy into the "supernatural / spiritual / religious" mombo jumbo ... however, I am fairly convinced on the power of the mind over body. I think a lot of our ailments are not really physical and are mostly in our heads. Furthermore, how we "feel" often has a direct correlation in how we "are". That is why a "televangelist" can in fact "heal" a person if that person is stupid enough to believe that such a thing can be done! (ironically enough)

I think it is a very non trivial and at the same time puzzling/distrubing thing to realize that you can have two identical persons, with identical biologies, and identical surroundings, etc etc ... yet one could be horribly misserable and the other be completely content and happy. It's all in those darn chemicals in the brain.

... or some people chose to call it "soul" (I don't think it is because soul has a bunch of supernatural connotations associated with it) ... but whatever name you chose to label it as, the phenomenon is there.

As far as our metal state and our biologies, since the mind controls a lot of things that are going on in the body, I think our mental state can definitely impact our biological well being. The effects of stress on blood pressure and heart disease are one very common example but it doesn't have to be as simple as that.


I completley agree with you Sip; I never denied the immense physiological role of the brain in creating, recieving and reacting to bodily sickness . As a matter of fact -as you have said- it it this very occurance and phenomenon that has been attempted to be explained by such means as the "soul" or "spirit". And it is obviousley real, I think the spiritual experience is found between the neurons of our noggins.

All I am saying is that it is better to think about and acquire knowledge about what goes on in our head than to helplessly and sheepishly hand your condition over to someone who promises to heel you through faith or whatever

#58 Sasun

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 11:03 AM

QUOTE(Djrak @ Feb 15 2006, 11:13 AM) View Post
my SELF is my enemy Sip, something I discovered after 25 years of living to satisfy it.
And can you please tell me when exactly I looked down on anyone? And if I did I'm sorry it must have been my SELF which still creeps up from time to time ( much less than before thanks to my Savior and King)

"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." - John 12:14

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Your pride (or desire to attribute all to your SELF) is what is keeping you from real LIFE
And I am not "giving faaaaaar more credit" to Jesus, you are taking away all of that from Him.
What seems scary to you is only scary because it is threatening your SELF. But your SOUL yearns for it all the time. It is called LIFE. It is food and water for your SOUL. But LIFE to your SOUL means DEATH to your SELF. And you have complete freedom to choose my friend.

Each person has 2 selves, one is the real Self which is the divine in us, and the second one is the false self which is the ego. These 2 selves are enemies. Ego thinks that it is the body and mind, that it is separate from others, and that it will die one day to be lost forever. The ego suffers from a multitude of diseases, fear, insecurity, anger, jealousy, etc... Ego is in a delusionary state. It is the slave of Satan but it thinks it is free.
The real Self is actually the infinite, immortal, always blissful, ever free Soul having taken a particular body and mind as clothing in this life. The real Self views other individuals as itself, there is no sense of separation from others, there is no racial, national, religious, sex separation, all is one and the same eternal Self. Therefore, all are brothers and sisters loved equally, there are no enemies among humankind. The real Self does not view death as real death, and does not suffer from anything. Life is only an interesting adventure to enjoy and be entertained with no matter what happens, as inteded by God.

As long as we keep thinking that we are the body and mind it is the false self talking and acting. It is very much like thinking that you are your clothes. This is a human delusion form which we all suffer. Essentially, the cause of all suffering is the ignorance of who we really are. (A simple illustration: some women focus so much on their appearance and become obsessed with it that they think they are their clothes and make up, if something is wrong with their dressing they get terribly upset and uhappy. What an unfortunate delusion!)

#59 Zartonk

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 11:05 AM

(Sorry about the multiple posts everyone.)

Sasun jan, about the observed fact. Can you give an example?

QUOTE
It is impossible to bring anything to its completion and success without Christ. And I mean anything.


So the failure of all the men who were before Jesus Christ or just had no chance to hear of him was due to them having no Jesus, and all of their successes and advancements are unexplained?

#60 Sasun

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Feb 15 2006, 12:05 PM) View Post
Sasun jan, about the observed fact. Can you give an example?

Excellent question, all along I have been waiting for a raional question like this. Rather than being cynical and skeptical as usually happens, you are asking the right question smile.gif

I can bring testimonies of people who have been cured by spiritual healing and prayer. Here Anahid just pointed one example she knows, and Djrak is mentioning of others. Are they scientifically investigated? Probably no, but we should get more details rather than dismiss. I am not vouching for those since I don't know more about these than what's said above. I will bring cases that I know better.

In addition, I will also bring scientific research on prayer for others. Just give me some time and I will open up a new thread just for these questions smile.gif




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