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#21 Zartonk

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 05:26 PM

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I still don't understand why Armenians so harshly rejected Zoroastrianism (a religion that should have been far more appealing to Armenians because of our geographic closeness to Persia)


Kakachick jan,

As a result of that closeness, a spiritual merge would have meant an end to identity and assimilation.

#22 vava

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE(sSebB @ Feb 6 2006, 03:34 AM) View Post
Matthew 5:11-12


You know, he ends that chapter with "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." That's quite something now. Be Perfect!

Of course, we can all take quotes out of context, can't we? smile.gif

#23 Vanetsi

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:20 PM

First off, calling Benny Hinn a Christian leader is outrageous. Secondly, don't try to bring the name of Armenian Christianity down by connecting him to the Armenians. True, he is part armenian, but he has no tie with the Armenian church of any rite.

Another thing; you're going to judge the standing of Christianity by the likes of those jackass evangelic hypocrits? Be real. They're less Christian than Bin Laden--- although I am no one to judge another's faith. Just because they claim to be pastors and preach the Word gives them no credibility. And just because they have a large following of ignorant evangelic and broad media coverage does not make them a Christian leader.

#24 aSoldier

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:04 PM

QUOTE(Vanetsi @ Feb 7 2006, 11:20 AM) View Post
Another thing; you're going to judge the standing of Christianity by the likes of those jackass evangelic hypocrits? Be real. They're less Christian than Bin Laden--- although I am no one to judge another's faith. Just because they claim to be pastors and preach the Word gives them no credibility. And just because they have a large following of ignorant evangelic and broad media coverage does not make them a Christian leader.


Well said.

Only God can judge.

Edited by sSebB, 06 February 2006 - 09:05 PM.


#25 Takoush

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 11:45 PM

QUOTE(Vanetsi @ Feb 6 2006, 07:20 PM) View Post
First off, calling Benny Hinn a Christian leader is outrageous. Secondly, don't try to bring the name of Armenian Christianity down by connecting him to the Armenians. True, he is part armenian, but he has no tie with the Armenian church of any rite.

Another thing; you're going to judge the standing of Christianity by the likes of those jackass evangelic hypocrits? Be real. They're less Christian than Bin Laden--- although I am no one to judge another's faith. Just because they claim to be pastors and preach the Word gives them no credibility. And just because they have a large following of ignorant evangelic and broad media coverage does not make them a Christian leader.

Good for you Vanetsi yeghpayrs. And also good for you to show your abhorrance for what he said about Christianity that whatever his name is....he doesn't even deserve my fingers to type his name. The guy who started this link. Vanetsi I give you a medal and a half. Shad abris. smile.gif

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 06 February 2006 - 11:48 PM.


#26 Sasun

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE(Armena @ Feb 5 2006, 02:04 AM) View Post
There are vacuum sealed vaults in the Vatican library containing thousands upon thousands of ancient esoteric books from around the world that have been stolen and hoarded over the years and kept out of public circulation. The Catholic Church which is the root of the Christian religion is controlled by a secret society that has abused occult power to enslave the masses. The end goal is the total enslavement of humanity, which they have worked towards relentlessly and ruthlessly. These people have advanced astrological knowledge that assists their works in regards to timing. These are secrets that have survived the ages from Ancient Babylon and other ancient civilizations that were highly advanced both spiritually, intellectually and technologically.

Hey, just out of curiousity, do you have a tiny drop of evidence to support these claims? Catholic church having occult power???

#27 Djrak

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 01:37 AM

QUOTE(sSebB @ Feb 6 2006, 02:34 AM) View Post
Matthew 5:11-12

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."


AMEN!

St Paul also sais that if you are not being persecuted that means there is something wrong with your faith. Because you're not making the devil mad!

Edited by Djrak, 11 February 2006 - 01:37 AM.


#28 Djrak

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 01:44 AM

QUOTE(Vanetsi @ Feb 6 2006, 06:20 PM) View Post
although I am no one to judge another's faith.

but you are.

Many people are coming to Christ and many are healed thru those Evangelists. Although they may have flaws, that doesnt make them unbelievers just as it doesnt make them perfect or orthodox in everything they do. All that matters is the Lord and our faith in Him. I dont like Benny Hinn myself not for the same reasons as you. i think he has a lot of personality issues but when it comes to faith and being led by the Lord's Spirit, i have nothing to say because he is bearing fruit. And that is all that matters to Jesus.

St Paul sais some teachers preach the gospel for their own glory, and although they will be lost but atleast others may hear God's word from them and be saved.

Edited by Djrak, 11 February 2006 - 01:45 AM.


#29 Vanetsi

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE(Djrak @ Feb 11 2006, 01:44 AM) View Post
but you are.

Many people are coming to Christ and many are healed thru those Evangelists. Although they may have flaws, that doesnt make them unbelievers just as it doesnt make them perfect or orthodox in everything they do. All that matters is the Lord and our faith in Him. I dont like Benny Hinn myself not for the same reasons as you. i think he has a lot of personality issues but when it comes to faith and being led by the Lord's Spirit, i have nothing to say because he is bearing fruit. And that is all that matters to Jesus.

St Paul sais some teachers preach the gospel for their own glory, and although they will be lost but atleast others may hear God's word from them and be saved.


I did judge them, didn't I. But it doesn't take an expert to see through these people. I could preach on how these Evangelists aren't legit. I could preach on how they in now way follow the apostolic succession. I could preach on how their "church" is nothing but schismatic. I could denounce them for all of these things. But I don't. Because I believe that what is in your heart defines your faith. You don't need to be an Armenian Orthodox Christian-- or belong to any other church for that matter-- to be a true believer (yes, there are issues with the sacraments, but what is in one's heart is what really matters). The point I was trying to make is that there are wolves in sheep skin in the Evangelical community-- and they go to the Evangelical churches because of the opportunity to make money. There are many fake and dishonest people. I was speaking of the likes of those "preachers" who manipulate the word and the faith of others to make fortunes. And these same people are the ones that go against what they preach. Take for example Jerry Falwell. These people claim to be preaching fundamentalism when their ideas actaully are a distortion of our religion.

Edited by Vanetsi, 11 February 2006 - 02:08 PM.


#30 Djrak

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 03:17 PM

QUOTE(Vanetsi @ Feb 11 2006, 02:07 PM) View Post
I did judge them, didn't I. But it doesn't take an expert to see through these people. I could preach on how these Evangelists aren't legit. I could preach on how they in now way follow the apostolic succession. I could preach on how their "church" is nothing but schismatic. I could denounce them for all of these things. But I don't. Because I believe that what is in your heart defines your faith. You don't need to be an Armenian Orthodox Christian-- or belong to any other church for that matter-- to be a true believer (yes, there are issues with the sacraments, but what is in one's heart is what really matters). The point I was trying to make is that there are wolves in sheep skin in the Evangelical community-- and they go to the Evangelical churches because of the opportunity to make money. There are many fake and dishonest people. I was speaking of the likes of those "preachers" who manipulate the word and the faith of others to make fortunes. And these same people are the ones that go against what they preach. Take for example Jerry Falwell. These people claim to be preaching fundamentalism when their ideas actaully are a distortion of our religion.

"When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." "

Acts 5:33-39

#31 Takoush

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 07:17 PM

Hi Djrak, how are you?

I like to ask you pertaining to what you guys are talking about in reference to the Evangelists. It is quite true what Vanetsi is saying about most of them being wolves in sheepskin, because they are. But it is also true that whatever their intention and however they are wicked to pursue that career to make money for themselves; however they do make many other followers to be believing and walking with Christ and God.

Now my question to you is this. Regardless that those Evangelists do good but with their wicked intent in the first place and also the fact that they don't lead the life that they preach; so when they do die, their souls will definitely be judjed severly by God and they will either not go to heaven or they may go to purgotary for a while before they'll be allowed to heaven, is that right? Or do you have to add to this statement.

#32 Djrak

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE(Anahid Takouhi @ Feb 12 2006, 07:17 PM) View Post
Hi Djrak, how are you?

I like to ask you pertaining to what you guys are talking about in reference to the Evangelists. It is quite true what Vanetsi is saying about most of them being wolves in sheepskin, because they are. But it is also true that whatever their intention and however they are wicked to pursue that career to make money for themselves; however they do make many other followers to be believing and walking with Christ and God.

Now my question to you is this. Regardless that those Evangelists do good but with their wicked intent in the first place and also the fact that they don't lead the life that they preach; so when they do die, their souls will definitely be judjed severly by God and they will either not go to heaven or they may go to purgotary for a while before they'll be allowed to heaven, is that right? Or do you have to add to this statement.

Hi Anahid, I'm fine, hope everything's ok with you too.

I would just like to point out one little detail people overlook and because of that we tend to be too quick to judge others. I'm not trying to defend anyone but I learned to be more sceptical about what the media sais than what I see happenning as a result of faith and proof of the Lord's presence and work.
Christians have always been persecuted and nothing's changed today. It may be on a different level but it's still the same. If those Evangelists are fakes it will show from the fruits of their work and if they are being attacked (especially from non-believers or so called "christian leaders") that gives me more proof that they are true. Now I can always be wrong but like I said earlier, all that matters to Jesus is that people get to know Him. There is nothing more important than that, in fact the whole Bible has one purpose and that is it. That is why He became a man and took on Himself the sins of the world that is why He was crucified, that is why He rose from the grave, that is why He send His Holy Spirit and that is what was planned from the very beginning.

About your question: The Bible sais nothing about purgatory. It is something that Roman Catholics introduced. And whether they will be saved or not is something God will judge.

#33 Ludwig9

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 10:17 AM

QUOTE(Vanetsi @ Feb 11 2006, 02:07 PM) View Post
Because I believe that what is in your heart defines your faith. You don't need to be an Armenian Orthodox Christian-- or belong to any other church for that matter-- to be a true believer (yes, there are issues with the sacraments, but what is in one's heart is what really matters).


Hello Vanetsi,

I agree with you with regarding the supposed "Christians" who turn Christianity into something you would buy on the Home Shopping Network, but I disagree with you regarding a persons heart that defines their faith, because the heart, just like the mind, can be tricked.

#34 Zartonk

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:01 AM

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Many people are coming to Christ and many are healed thru those Evangelists. Although they may have flaws, that doesnt make them unbelievers just as it doesnt make them perfect or orthodox in everything they do. All that matters is the Lord and our faith in Him. I dont like Benny Hinn myself not for the same reasons as you. i think he has a lot of personality issues but when it comes to faith and being led by the Lord's Spirit, i have nothing to say because he is bearing fruit. And that is all that matters to Jesus.


I sure hope you don't mean literal, physical healing, because there can be nothing more superstitous and dangerous to advancement then believing that the action any mere mortal can effect the biological state of the human body and it's natural coarse.

And I also have to disagree with you on the Televangelist. Faith alone doesn't mean a thing. You can claim and shout that you are "led by the Lord's Spirit" all day, and be the worst kind of crook and deciever. Belief doesn't justify behaviour.

I think lots of rotten species are being mistaken for Jesus' "fruit".

#35 Sasun

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:42 AM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Feb 14 2006, 12:01 PM) View Post
I sure hope you don't mean literal, physical healing, because there can be nothing more superstitous and dangerous to advancement then believing that the action any mere mortal can effect the biological state of the human body and it's natural coarse.

Do you mean to say that healing spiritually is impossible? Or televangelists can't possibly heal people?

#36 Sip

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 03:24 PM

Zartonk, anyone who knows me knows well that I am the last person to buy into the "supernatural / spiritual / religious" mombo jumbo ... however, I am fairly convinced on the power of the mind over body. I think a lot of our ailments are not really physical and are mostly in our heads. Furthermore, how we "feel" often has a direct correlation in how we "are". That is why a "televangelist" can in fact "heal" a person if that person is stupid enough to believe that such a thing can be done! (ironically enough) biggrin.gif

I think it is a very non trivial and at the same time puzzling/distrubing thing to realize that you can have two identical persons, with identical biologies, and identical surroundings, etc etc ... yet one could be horribly misserable and the other be completely content and happy. It's all in those darn chemicals in the brain.

... or some people chose to call it "soul" (I don't think it is because soul has a bunch of supernatural connotations associated with it) ... but whatever name you chose to label it as, the phenomenon is there.

As far as our metal state and our biologies, since the mind controls a lot of things that are going on in the body, I think our mental state can definitely impact our biological well being. The effects of stress on blood pressure and heart disease are one very common example but it doesn't have to be as simple as that.

Edited by Sip, 14 February 2006 - 03:30 PM.


#37 Sasun

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 04:22 PM

What Sip calls a mumbo-jumbo is actually real facts.

1) You, I, everyonce have powers to heal ourselves - spiritually. That maybe prompted by televangelists or anyone whome we accept in that capacity, but they don't necessarily heal us
2) Spiritually advanced people can heal not only themselves but also others provided the others cooperate by accepting their healing
3) Ordinary people can heal others and themselves by sincere and deep prayer

These are observed facts, not mumbo-jumbo

#38 vava

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:10 PM

QUOTE(Sasun @ Feb 14 2006, 05:22 PM) View Post
These are observed facts, not mumbo-jumbo


I don't want to get into this argument again. But it was once also an "observed fact" that the world was flat - unfortunately enough. I entirely accept that when it comes to human health, phsychological and biological boundaries are blurred - physical well-being has a definite impact upon mental well-being and vice-versa. All this solely within the individual.

Where I see a problem is with claim that someone else's mental well-being (or spirituality, call is as you wish) can have a direct impact upon another's physical conditions. I don't think that sort of healing is anymore fact-based than the flat earth. True, one person can guide another's mental/physical balance and help them heal themselves - but that's not the direct type of healing that we're referring to here.

#39 Sasun

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:44 PM

QUOTE(vava @ Feb 14 2006, 06:10 PM) View Post
I don't want to get into this argument again. But it was once also an "observed fact" that the world was flat - unfortunately enough. I entirely accept that when it comes to human health, phsychological and biological boundaries are blurred - physical well-being has a definite impact upon mental well-being and vice-versa. All this solely within the individual.

Where I see a problem is with claim that someone else's mental well-being (or spirituality, call is as you wish) can have a direct impact upon another's physical conditions. I don't think that sort of healing is anymore fact-based than the flat earth. True, one person can guide another's mental/physical balance and help them heal themselves - but that's not the direct type of healing that we're referring to here.

No Vava, I have to disagree. Flat earth was never an observed fact. Portions of earth were observed to be approximately flat, that was all that was observed.

As to healing, it is an observed fact because you can see somebody is sick then somebody else heals him and he is no longer sick. I call it an observed fact. Often it is also repatedly observed which makes it a more reliable observation.
The reason many people are skeptical regarding healing is because there are many cases of hoax, superstition or cases where the healing happened naturally while it was attributed to spiritual healing. Nevertheless, there are also true cases of healing though these are the minority of the known cases.

#40 Arpa

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE(Sasun @ Feb 14 2006, 10:22 PM) View Post
What Sip calls a mumbo-jumbo is actually real facts.

1) You, I, everyonce have powers to heal ourselves - spiritually. That maybe prompted by televangelists or anyone whome we accept in that capacity, but they don't necessarily heal us
2) Spiritually advanced people can heal not only themselves but also others provided the others cooperate by accepting their healing
3) Ordinary people can heal others and themselves by sincere and deep prayer

These are observed facts, not mumbo-jumbo

The reason why in medical emergency cases the ambulance will take one to the nearest church or an evangelist’s TV studio.
That is why Christian Science reading rooms are under the dept. of health and welfare The reason why exorcism and other mumbo jumbo covered by most health insurance companies. In case we may have forgotten mental illness is caused by demons and physical sickness by bad wind. The reason why we “beat the devil out” of the mentally ill and we “beat the sh*t out” of physically ill. And all those are covered by medical insurance, Medicaid and Medicare.
And finally, the reason why in Armenia having one’s head read over is considered medical practice, and medical students are taught grabar so they can read the Narek over their patients. That is where the Armenian saying gna glokh@d kartal tur comes from.




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