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Physicist Wins Spirituality Prize


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#21 Siamanto

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 08:19 PM

QUOTE (Azat @ Mar 10 2005, 10:46 AM)
whatever


However...

#22 Armen

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 11:32 PM

Another round of Big Bangin' ... smile.gif

#23 Anoushik

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 11:53 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Mar 10 2005, 01:10 PM)
I don't think the thread is rediculous ... spiritual people gave him a spiritual award for being spiritual. Now if they gave him a scienfic award for being spiritual or a spiritual award for being scientific, then I would call shenanigans.  But as it is, there is still order in the universe.

But at least he was smart enough to get a scientific Nobel prize, then start babbling about spirituality biggrin.gif

Sip, I like your new avatar!

PS. I have to say it is a bit annoying not to be able to spell your whole name tongue.gif

#24 Solaris

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Mar 11 2005, 03:53 AM)
Just wait till I start using words like evidences, limitative, and reductionist. But with the other bird being who he is, I take that as a compliment.


IMHO the explanation here is simple to the point of being scary. That old guy is simply too afraid of dieing. tongue.gif

Good old Angst is behind the beliefs in the supernatural, 'cause it gives a promise of afterlife. Most humans just can't resign themselves to the idea that they'll be finished one day once and for all, hence the concept of meeting the Man in the Sky (or Old Harry if you've been naughty) as soon as you croak in almost all religions and cults. smile.gif

#25 Armen

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 04:08 PM

QUOTE (Solaris @ Mar 14 2005, 03:56 PM)
Most humans just can't resign themselves to the idea that they'll be finished one day once and for all.


Because it is completely illogical in the first place. If there is nothing, how come "I am"?

And those who do conform to that idea do that merely to avoid the trouble of thinking about it and not because of some notion of emotional strength or superior consciousness. Just see how troubled everyone became here. After every hint of creationism there is a big parade of "I don't believe", "This is stupid".

#26 DominO

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE (Solaris @ Mar 14 2005, 04:56 PM)
IMHO the explanation here is simple to the point of being scary. That old guy is simply too afraid of dieing.  tongue.gif

Good old Angst is behind the beliefs in the supernatural, 'cause it gives a promise of afterlife. Most humans just can't resign themselves to the idea that they'll be finished one day once and for all, hence the concept of meeting the Man in the Sky (or Old Harry if you've been naughty) as soon as you croak in almost all religions and cults. smile.gif


I disagree about that, from experience, elderly people seem to be less afraid of death, because they have seen life, and at that age, they don't really expect anything new.

Many scientists at that age, start becoming uncertain about things in general. It is I think the ages of wisdom... knowing that you know nothing. smile.gif At young age they think they know everything, when old, they think they actualy know very little.

I thought like you about that in the past, but after reading the physicist that cointed the term Black hole in his 90s, I stared doughting that it was fear. Of course for many it may be fear, that is what is claimed by many skeptic organizations, but I think that those that claim so haven't actualy interviewed elderly people.

#27 Sip

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 04:39 PM

QUOTE (Armen @ Mar 14 2005, 04:08 PM)
Because it is completely illogical in the first place. If there is nothing, how come "I am"?


Armen, just like Domino (for other reasons), I would be willing to administer the "ass kicking" test to you as well. I will kick your ass when you are alive, then I will kick your ass again when you are dead.

I think that will make it clear to you the difference between when "you are" and when "you are not".

#28 Armen

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Mar 14 2005, 04:39 PM)
Armen, just like Domino (for other reasons), I would be willing to administer the "ass kicking" test to you as well.  I will kick your ass when you are alive, then I will kick your ass again when you are dead.

I think that will make it clear to you the difference between when "you are" and when "you are not".


Oooo, Sip is angry biggrin.gif Now I know how they taught you stuff, they just kicked your ass and you learned. No wonder... And I don't understand what Domino has to do with this ...

#29 armjan

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:16 PM

the scariest scenario for me is not death but to live long,
-u'll get to c everyone u care about dying
-your mental/physical facilities will deterriorate to the pt of being non-functional
-ppl will start laughing at u b/c u used to connect to internet via 56K modem smile.gif

on the contrary, my experience has been that a belief in faith develops from the realization that one doesn't have the answer to everything in life. I believe that the foolish among us are those who have NO clue as to the meaning of faith to some yet care to voice thier naive/rudementary/judgemental opinions about it as if its absolute.

i get a kick out of seeing ppl put themselves on some elevated platform of knowledge only to be slapped back to reality everytime they experience their limitations.

u know, time and time again, we talk about faith and notion of truth but there isn't a clear distinction between the two.
how does one confirm that something is true?
is there one absolute truth? or can there be many?
how can one authenticate the correctness of thier knowledge?
can an entity prove/disprove the correctness of itself?
does contradiction implicate the existence of truth?
(consider 2 observers w/2 different frames of references each determining their truth, nature of light as particle/wave)

realize that life is a little more complicated than 2+2=4 that u learned in 2nd grade. not everthing, most things can't be reduced to that form. moreover, the addition operator has many defns depending on the context in which it is used. it may/may not be constructive.

this is especially exaggerated in the fields of quantum mechanics. there are literally thousands of papers documenting behavoir that can't be by the human level of abstraction(whatever u consider that to be). Motion is not always linear in space, and so on...

Edited by armjan, 14 March 2005 - 05:25 PM.


#30 Sip

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Armen @ Mar 14 2005, 05:09 PM)
Oooo, Sip is angry biggrin.gif Now I know how they taught you stuff, they just kicked your ass and you learned. No wonder... And I don't understand what Domino has to do with this ...


Domino has earned several ass kickings throughout the years. At some point the numbers were growing exponentially but recent events have resulted in a very serious back-off in those numbers!!!

I think I still owe him a couple biggrin.gif

But the point is, in order for you "to be", there has to be a state for you "not to be". Otherwise, you can't be. In other words, in order for someone to be exist as "alive", that someone has to be dead at some point.

About creationism, this morning I was thinking that God created evolution .. but then my friend pointed out that it was more like evolution created God. What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing much other than I am seriously going to start kicking some ass and asking questions later mad.gif biggrin.gif

#31 armjan

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:27 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Mar 14 2005, 05:24 PM)
Domino has earned several ass kickings throughout the years. At some point the numbers were growing exponentially but recent events have resulted in a very serious back-off in those numbers!!!

I think I still owe him a couple  biggrin.gif

But the point is, in order for you "to be", there has to be a state for you "not to be". Otherwise, you can't be. In other words, in order for someone to be exist as "alive", that someone has to be dead at some point.

About creationism, this morning I was thinking that God created evolution .. but then my friend pointed out that it was more like evolution created God. What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing much other than I am seriously going to start kicking some ass and asking questions later  mad.gif  biggrin.gif

inorder for you to kick ass, there must be a state where you are getting your ass kicked, right?
sorry, we need some drama every couple of days, it's getting kind of boring without it.

Edited by armjan, 14 March 2005 - 05:28 PM.


#32 Armen

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:43 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Mar 14 2005, 05:24 PM)
But the point is, in order for you "to be", there has to be a state for you "not to be". Otherwise, you can't be. In other words, in order for someone to be exist as "alive", that someone has to be dead at some point.

In terms of spiritual being ... it "is" and it "is not" at the same time. "Alive" and "dead" can be applied only to our physical body. So, surly, our physical reality is polarised so that it has the power to set the extreme borders of our consciousness. I have said many times if there was no "evil", there would be no "good".
QUOTE
About creationism, this morning I was thinking that God created evolution .. but then my friend pointed out that it was more like evolution created God. What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing much other than I am seriously going to start kicking some ass and asking questions later  mad.gif  biggrin.gif

Mmm, don't realy know what to say. Maybe ... suite yourself?

#33 Sip

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:45 PM

Alright that's it ... 2 for Domino, 1 for Armen, and 1 more for Armjan boxing.gif

tongue.gif

#34 MosJan

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 06:45 PM

wow a 3 way ???

#35 Stormig

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 01:07 PM

Oh please, can I kick arse, too?

#36 Armen

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Mar 16 2005, 01:07 PM)
Oh please, can I kick arse, too?


Yes you can but don't hurt yourself smile.gif

#37 Stormig

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE (Armen @ Mar 16 2005, 07:30 PM)
Yes you can but don't hurt yourself  smile.gif

I won't. I survived last Sunday without anything beyond a slight soreness in the knees for plunging one leg up to my butt in snow/void. smile.gif Thank goodness there was a tall, strong gentleman to grab me out, even if it required an initial thrashing from me for his scratching his head as to how I had managed to do just that where he had stepped previously and holding up the rest of the group. Is this how love begins? wub.gif
Sorry for continuing the defilement of this thread. smile.gif

#38 Sasun

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Solaris @ Mar 14 2005, 04:56 PM)
IMHO the explanation here is simple to the point of being scary. That old guy is simply too afraid of dieing.  tongue.gif

Good old Angst is behind the beliefs in the supernatural, 'cause it gives a promise of afterlife. Most humans just can't resign themselves to the idea that they'll be finished one day once and for all, hence the concept of meeting the Man in the Sky (or Old Harry if you've been naughty) as soon as you croak in almost all religions and cults. smile.gif

I hope you realize how primitive this explanation is. It demonstrates a very casual understanding of the human being.

#39 Solaris

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:11 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Mar 17 2005, 03:12 AM)
I hope you realize how primitive this explanation is. It demonstrates a very casual understanding of the human being.


It certainly is! How could it be otherwise, I'm just a wretched godless creature who can neither see the light or conceive what human nature is about... Especially when it comes to highly spiritual creatures like Racoon… ooups, Sasun! tongue.gif

My casual and primitive understanding of human nature also prevents me from seeing "gurus” in certain shadowy figures accused of sexual abuse, so perhaps you may want to consider drowning a blasphemous creature like me in a bathtub full of holy water… or even better -- sneezing me to death by burning frankincense… tongue.gif

That some old poop has turned to god in his advanced age, and some religious societies have seized the chance to exploit it for publicity does not add a scruple of credibility to your theories. That's entirely a non sequitur kind of thing. Poor ole John Nash had delusions of alien conspiracies, had built a whole theory on them – a quite elaborate one BTW, so what? It doesn't devalue his "Nash equilibrium" a bit, but is no proof of alien conspiracies either. smile.gif

Look, just don't take it all (and yourself) too seriously. You keep opening "spiritual" threads but all you achieve by them is having some vexed agnostic post some nasty comment. mad.gif wink.gif tongue.gif Sip, how come you did not express aggressive intentions also towards his backside… tongue.gif

#40 Solaris

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Mar 15 2005, 02:09 AM)
I disagree about that, from experience, elderly people seem to be less afraid of death, because they have seen life, and at that age, they don't really expect anything new.

Many scientists at that age, start becoming uncertain about things in general. It is I think the ages of wisdom... knowing that you know nothing. smile.gif At young age they think they know everything, when old, they think they actualy know very little.

I thought like you about that in the past, but after reading the physicist that cointed the term Black hole in his 90s, I stared doughting that it was fear. Of course for many it may be fear, that is what is claimed by many skeptic organizations, but I think that those that claim so haven't actualy interviewed elderly people.


Hey QB, I didn't mean it as an "authoritative" explanation – I put more irony than theory in it, so I don't catch what exactly you disagree with. smile.gif But as you brought this up, I'll tell you that I have observed elderly people, most of them rather "apatheistic" in their younger years, turn to a hope of "the sweet hereafter" as they get closer to a "critical” age. Those whom I know close enough to discuss delicate matters like this one say that they still don't believe in god, but nevertheless would like to have a hope of a continuing existence in some immaterial form.

This may or not be fear or angst (it is surely quite different for every individual), but there is indeed an imperative longing for the "continuation” of earthly life, and this longing is reflected in all religious systems as a major element. That it takes various forms in different religions and cults (paradise/hell, reincarnation, etc) being nevertheless present in every single one of them confirms that it is a universal human phenomenon. It certainly is not the only factor underlying the tenacity of religious beliefs, but it's a powerful element all the same.

Not that I don't find this longing or hope perfectly natural and understandable. Actually I'm not quite delighted of being mortal either and wouldn't mind an afterlife, especially if it would give me the chance to haunt at nights those Armos who listen to rabiz music… mad.gif tongue.gif




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