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Famous Scientists - Creationists


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#101 Armen

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:46 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 27 2005, 12:25 PM)
Oh and I forgot.

Here an interesting link for anyone that want to know more about Steiner and his school.

http://hem.passagen....agenglish1.html


QB, that link is not about Steiner or his school. It is Peter Normann Waage's reply to the accusations of Staudenmaier.

#102 DominO

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:24 PM

QUOTE (Armen @ Feb 27 2005, 02:38 PM)
QB, I read the whole article I swear but I am not going to present counter arguments to it and here is why. Go to the first paragraph and read this passage of Peter Staudenmaier where he writes:

"The 'national souls' of Norther and Central Europe belonged, Steiner explained, to the "germanic-nordic" peoples, the worlds most spiritually advansed ethnic group". 

QB, now I will show you how exactly Staudenmaier uses propadanda techniques (this is why I don't view him as a serious critic). Steiner did say that about the Northern and Central Europe. Take the Czech (Central Europe) people for example. They are Slavs by their origin and language but their development is more Germanic than Slav. Or take the Sandinavians (North Europe). Aren't they Germanic? They are.

BUT! Staudedmaier attaches an additional passage (see above in the quote), which says - "the worlds most spiritually advansed ethnic group" - which are not Steiner's words. They are Staudenmaiers words.

QB, this article - which I read all - was not worth reading after that part.
Please quote it QB and mention the paragraph.
QB, do not apply your methods of fighting denialism to everything. If we go that way we may one day find that Bach was the root of German Nazism.
QB, can you explain what you understand under "racism"?


That's simply BS Armen.

Do Steiner believe in an Aryian race as being the most superior of all, the most "spiritualy" evolved of all?

Yes!

Did he believed that Germans were Aryians? Yes! He did.

Did he believed that Blacks are at the bottom of human evolution? YES!!! Stop BSing me with all this bullcrap, and tell me how someone whos position is centered on different human evolution, from bottom to top, from Blacks to Aryians IS NOT RACIST!!! Stop twisting here, explain me how such an order pyramid of Aryans at top is not racistic.

Racism is about the hierarchisation of people based on the so-called race concept, this is how it appeared in Europe, and that is how it appeared in Germany... but then, the Steiner school of thought lives again without being banned, because they were able to twist and propagandise.

You were right about the link, I have submitted the wrong link, I meant to post this one.

http://www.waldorfcritics.org/

There are some horor stories out there, there are really racistic myths that they teach to their pupils.

#103 Armen

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 04:57 PM

QUOTE (QueBeceR @ Feb 27 2005, 04:24 PM)
That's simply BS Armen.
Do Steiner believe in an Aryian race as being the most superior of all, the most "spiritualy" evolved of all?
Yes!
Did he believed that Germans were Aryians? Yes! He did.
Did he believed that Blacks are at the bottom of human evolution? YES!!! Stop BSing me with all this bullcrap, and tell me how someone whos position is centered on different human evolution, from bottom to top, from Blacks to Aryians IS NOT RACIST!!! Stop twisting here, explain me how such an order pyramid of Aryans at top is not racistic.
Racism is about the hierarchisation of people based on the so-called race concept, this is how it appeared in Europe, and that is how it appeared in Germany... but then, the Steiner school of thought lives again without being banned, because they were able to twist and propagandise.


QB, there is one argument that dismisses everything you wrote here.

Anthroposophy (translated as "wisdom about the human") is an individual-centric thinking. It always goes from the individual to the collective and never the other way round. Meaning that racism (race-centric), as a priciple, could never be a notion of anthroposophy and it has never been.

Stop applying "conspiracy" stuff when it is not there. I already told you what he meant by "Aryan". No one ever needed to twist anything. Are you telling me that I THINK that a German person is superior to me in something?

QUOTE
You were right about the link, I have submitted the wrong link, I meant to post this one.
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/
There are some horor stories out there, there are really racistic myths that they teach to their pupils.


QB, I already told you that there are hundreds of these schools.

I can find a couple of "horror" stories about ANY institution of the world. So what?

#104 DominO

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 10:51 AM

QUOTE (Armen @ Feb 27 2005, 05:57 PM)
QB, there is one argument that dismisses everything you wrote here.

Anthroposophy (translated as "wisdom about the human") is an individual-centric thinking. It always goes from the individual to the collective and never the other way round. Meaning that racism (race-centric), as a priciple, could never be a notion of anthroposophy and it has never been.

Stop applying "conspiracy" stuff when it is not there. I already told you what he meant by "Aryan". No one ever needed to twist anything. Are you telling me that I THINK that a German person is superior to me in something?
QB, I already told you that there are hundreds of these schools.

I can find a couple of "horror" stories about ANY institution of the world. So what?


Racism:

Racism refers to the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or that individuals should be treated differently based on their ascribed race. Sometimes it refers to beliefs, practices, and institutions that negatively discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. There is a growing, but controversial, tendency to state that racism is a system of oppression that combines racist beliefs, whether explicit, tacit or unconscious, with the power to have a negative effect on those discriminated against at a societal level.

Now let see if Steiners own words can be qualified as racism according to the above definition.

"I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood children will be born in Europe."

Not let see Steiner explaination.

"[There is] for example a point or center of cosmic influence situated in the interior of Africa. At this center are active all those terrestrial forces emanating from the soil which can influence man especially during his childhood. Later on their influence diminishes; man is less subject to these forces. Nevertheless their formative influence makes a powerful impression upon him. The locality where people live exercises its most potent influence in early childhood and thereby determines for their whole life those who are completely dependent on these forces, so that the particular locality impresses the characteristics of their early childhood permanently upon them. This is more or less typical of all those who, in respect to their racial character, are determined by the etheric formative forces of the earth in the neighborhood of that local locality. The black or Negro race is substantially determined by these childhood characteristics.

If we now cross over to Asia, we find a point or center where the formative forces of the earth impress permanently on man the particular characteristics of later youth or adolescence and determine his racial character. Such races are the yellow and brown races of our time.

If we continue northward and then turn in a westerly direction towards Europe, a third point or center is reached which permanently impresses upon man the characteristics of his adult life. In this way man is determined by the etheric forces emanating from the earth. When we look more closely into these separate points or centers we find that they follow a line which takes an unusual direction. These centers still exist today. The center in Africa corresponds to those terrestrial forces which imprint on man the characteristics of early childhood; the center in Asia corresponds to those which give man the characteristics of youth, and the corresponding center in Europe imprints upon man the characteristics of maturity. This is a simple universal law. Since all men in their different incarnations pass through the various races the claim that the European is superior to the black and yellow races has no real validity."

What Steiner is claiming, is the since reincarnation exist, and that every human will pass from Black to end with Whites, the concept of superiority can not exist, because a Blacks soul will as well be a White in its evolution. This does not make any sense at all, the fact that the soul will be reincarnated doesn't change a thing regarding the fact that he still believe that the human soul quest start from a Black and end as a White.

Here more quotes:

"the Negro race does not belong in Europe,"
"transplanting black people to Europe is horrible,"
"the white race is the spiritually creative race,"
"concepts hurt the Asianís brain,"
"The white race is the race of the future, is the race of intellectual achievement."
"The Negro has a strong libido."
"Thus, the Jews could do nothing better than be absorbed by the rest of humanity, so that Jewry as a people would simply cease to exist, that is would be ideal."
"If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence."
"[...] The blond ones were always the weaker ones with regard to the body, they were only stronger with regard to the soul.
"[...] Because the stronger the bodily forces are, the weaker the soul forces are. And humanity on Earth would stand before the danger, if the blond ones perished, that humanity on Earth actually became dumb, if it would not [otherwise] come to have a spiritual science, an anthroposophy, that no longer is dependent on the body, but gets its cleverness out of the spiritual investigation itself, if I may express myself in that way.

"So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a form of cleverness that is independent of blondness.

"Blond hair actually gives [brings about] cleverness; if you send [only a] little [blood] into the eyes, it remains in the brain with its fluid nourishment and gives the brain cleverness. The brown-haired and brown-eyed, and the black-haired and black-eyed, they force that which the blonds push into the brain, into the eyes and hair. Therefore they [the brown-haired, etc.] become materialists, acting only on the basis of what they see, and this must be balanced through a spiritual science. This means that you must have a spiritual science to the same extent that humanity loses its cleverness with the blondness.

"[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual science."

As for a few horor stories, I think you did not read what is in that site, read about those schools curiculum, there lies the real problem.

#105 onnig

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 06:59 PM

I think this thread would be a great place to have dialogue in regards to the issues of the "intelligent design" debate. I don't want to talk about the current events in the US but the actual arguments, pro and con, in regards to the intelligent design theory.

I would be pro-intelligent design for reasons I will state in my next post. What is your take on it?

Edited by onnig, 27 December 2005 - 06:59 PM.


#106 Arpa

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Posted 27 December 2005 - 08:57 PM

Ok Onnig.
Let's hear your version of ID.
Are you referring to the ONE that designed the Tsunami in SE Asia, or the one that shook the earth at Gumri and Spitak killing 25,000 of our compatriots?
Intelligence of the sort?
I'd rather be an IDIOT!!

Edited by Arpa, 28 December 2005 - 07:06 AM.





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