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The Invisible World


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#21 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:13 PM

QUOTE (Azat @ Jan 11 2005, 07:04 PM)
That is exactly what I do not believe in Sasun.  I don't believe in things that a person cannot show me.

Spirituality is not a science, people call it a "science" to give it more weigh.


I'm on this with you! yes.gif

#22 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:16 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jan 11 2005, 07:06 PM)
You see, that's the problem. You and many others think that some people can visualize an angel and think that they saw an angel. This is what you believe, but is it what actually happens? While it is a possibility, there have been many instances where the person neither thought about nor bothered to imagine an angel, but saw one anyway, in quite normal circmstances. And why do you assume that you can tell reality from imagination, but others somehow are not successful doing it and confuse imagination with reality?



its very obvious reality and imagination.. Sasun jan I can refer you to some people whose imagination will blow your mind, but they are heavily on drugs.. biggrin.gif

#23 Sip

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:16 PM

Sasun, I'll tell you what the problem is with your spirituality business. It is not testable. You say one will see if one opens his or her spiritual eye and start to see ... well, that is not how science works. Science can predict things and it is testable. The spiritual model does not predict anything and is not testable and therefore is useless.

And that is what I believe Azat means by "show me". He doesn't mean show me as in explain something that has already occured, but "show me" as in predict the outcome of something non trivial using spirituality. I highly doubt you or anyone else can do with spirituality what one can do with science. Call it "physical" if you wish but I would say the opposite of physical in this sense is "imaginary".

Edited by Seapahn, 11 January 2005 - 07:18 PM.


#24 Azat

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:21 PM

Sasun would 100 people who have these "eyes" with which they can see this God be able to identify the exact same person as God. What I mean is that we all can identify an apple or Movses(if we all have met him few times) or a car or any object that exists. Will these 100 people be able the same God.(since there is one right?)

I have a feeling that if there was a study the one God that these people identify will be vastly different from one another because to me it is a figure in their imagination and it has evolved in their head over time

#25 Azat

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE (Nefertiti @ Jan 11 2005, 05:13 PM)
I'm on this with you!  yes.gif


just this time? wink.gif

#26 MosJan

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:24 PM

bandage.gif yes ban chem asum bandage.gif

#27 Sip

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE (Nefertiti @ Jan 11 2005, 06:59 PM)
Soul is your inner dept as long as you are alive.. It moves you, the source of emotional world in the body.   I can go on and its just my belief. There are no right or wrong answers, everyone has his/her own.


Of course there are right and wrong answers here! What possible reason other than our wild imagination do we have to believe there is this "soul"? No one has any evidence on what this soul is, where this soul may come from and where it may go ... therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that whatever it is, assuming even such a thing exists, is it starts, develops, and ends with every individual life.

But then again, for every reasonable conclusion, there are countless unreasonable conclusions with some being much wilder, poetic, philosophically pleasing, etc than the others. smile.gif

Edit: By the way, Nefertiti, I agree with you on "soul", I think. So just thought to clarify that as I wasn't arguing against what you said about soul.

Edited by Seapahn, 11 January 2005 - 07:29 PM.


#28 Sasun

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jan 11 2005, 08:16 PM)
Sasun, I'll tell you what the problem is with your spirituality model. It is not testable. You say one will see if one opens his or her spiritual eye and start to see ... well, that is not how science works. Science can predict things and it is testable. The spiritual model does not predict anything and is not testable and therefore is useless.

But I am saying that the invisible worlds are testible too. I am stating that you, Azat and me also can see it. If that happened isn't it a successful test?
Now, how do you test? That's not simple. I can't show you an atom, can I? That's not simple. You need a microscope. And I can't show you an electron, you need an even more powerful microscope. So, in other words, effort must be made to see, you need an instrument called a microscope. Likewise you need the instrument to see the spiritual things, and that instrument is your own spiritual eye which is located between your eyebrows. Opening the spritual eye is not a joke or something easily accomplishable, but it is doable. All those who have opened it see the same things. Had they been seeing different things we could have doubted that they are imagining things. When I am saying the same things, it doesn't mean they see the same flower, for example. They see the same worlds, which have the same characteristics and the same inhabitants, not necessarily the same exact things.
QUOTE
And that is what I believe Azat means by "show me". He doesn't mean show me as in explain something that has already occured, but "show me" as in predict the outcome of something non trivial using spirituality. I highly doubt you or anyone else can do with spirituality what one can do with science. Call it "physical" if you wish but I would say the opposite of physical in this sense is "imaginary".

There are many testimonies of the predictions of spirituality. You can actually predict. In a high meditative state called Samadhi ( a state where all thoughts and senses have been stopped for a prolonged period) man starts to perceive reality without the use of the senses or sense organs. In that state whatever is perceived, whatever you can see happens at a later time in the physical world.
There is a lot more to the spiritual science, and if you read about it you will understand why it is called science rather than something else.

#29 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Azat @ Jan 11 2005, 07:22 PM)
just this time? wink.gif


in everything, du inchitses xabar? Mosoin hartsra kasi wink.gif

#30 Sasun

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:37 PM

QUOTE (Azat @ Jan 11 2005, 08:21 PM)
Sasun would 100 people who have these "eyes" with which they can see this God be able to identify the exact same person as God.  What I mean is that we all can identify an apple or Movses(if we all have met him few times) or a car or any object that exists.  Will these 100 people be able the same God.(since there is one right?)

I have a feeling that if there was a study the one God that these people identify will be vastly different from one another because to me it is a figure in their imagination and it has evolved in their head over time

God is different. The invisible worlds are easier to see than God. If one is much advanced to see God, God can appear in any form, because God does not have a fixed form (had it been fixed it would not be God). Therefore everyone will see God differently.

#31 Sasun

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE (Nefertiti @ Jan 11 2005, 08:16 PM)
its very obvious reality and imagination.. Sasun jan I can refer you to some people whose imagination will blow your mind, but they are heavily on drugs..  biggrin.gif

Nefertiti jan, I would rather not be referred to drug users wink.gif I am not talking about drugs at all.

#32 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jan 11 2005, 07:26 PM)
But then again, for every reasonable conclusion, there are countless unreasonable conclusions with some being much wilder, poetic, philosophically pleasing, etc than the others. smile.gif




agree

#33 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:40 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jan 11 2005, 07:38 PM)
Nefertiti jan, I would rather not be referred to drug users wink.gif I am not talking about drugs at all.


its was a joke.. that's why I biggrin.gif next to it wink.gif

#34 Sasun

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:44 PM

QUOTE (Nefertiti @ Jan 11 2005, 08:40 PM)
its was a joke..  that's why I  biggrin.gif  next to it  wink.gif

I know, I also used smile.gif next to it wink.gif

#35 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:45 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jan 11 2005, 07:44 PM)
I know, I also used smile.gif next to it wink.gif


smile.gif

#36 Sasun

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE (Nefertiti @ Jan 11 2005, 08:45 PM)
smile.gif

smile.gif

#37 Sip

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:48 PM

I feel a group hug coming on! outtahere.gif

#38 Nefertiti

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Sip @ Jan 11 2005, 07:48 PM)
I feel a group hug coming on!  outtahere.gif


and you run away? its a blessing! biggrin.gif stay still!

#39 Azat

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Jan 11 2005, 05:37 PM)
God is different. The invisible worlds are easier to see than God. If one is much advanced to see God, God can appear in any form, because God does not have a fixed form (had it been fixed it would not be God). Therefore everyone will see God differently.



Okay, not God, take some other object that is invisible to me but is visible to all these folks. Will they all be able to identify this thing?

#40 Sip

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:57 PM

QUOTE (Nefertiti @ Jan 11 2005, 07:50 PM)
and you run away? its a blessing!  biggrin.gif  stay still!


Not with Azat and Sasun around ohmy.gif ... the ratio just ain't right.




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