Armenian Atheists?????

I think Armenians who call themselves atheists are not armenians! You can be disbeliever but you have to respect religion of the First Christian Nation, and be proud of it no matter what.

Well, to be honest, my father doesn't believe in God, but cross is always with him and he attends church as well, and as a head of our surname keeps up with all christian sustoms.

I don’t want to get into a debate of requirements to be an Armenian, but let me ask you a question. Do you consider Armenian, only people who belong to Armenian Apostolic Church, or one can belong to Roman Catholic or Protestant denomination also?

While I do not believe, I don't label myself an "atheist". I don't know what I am anymore. With that said, I agree with Artur about the inseparability of being Armenian and The Armenian Church.

This is more of a diasporan thing, but The Church and its functions were at the center of the "Armenian-ness" of my childhood. When else would a diasporan get to immerse themselves in a gathering with other Armenians? Glendale not included.

Is it possible for an Indian not to be Hindu?
Is it possible for an Arab not to be Muslim?
Is it possible for someone who is Jewish by ethnicity not to be Jewish religiously? The answer is yes. The same thing applies to Armenians and Christianity.

However I do believe that the church plays an instrumenatal role in Armenian culture. It is definitely a good thing for an Armenian to be familiar with the Armenian church from a cultural point of view, if not from a religious standpoint.

Also there is a difference between an Armenian atheist and an Armenian who completely changes religions to something other than Christianity, as far as staying Armenian is concerned. It is possible for someone to stay Armenian in many ways and not believe in God. However it is almost impossible for someone to stay Armenian while practicing Islam, for example.

First we don't recognise any Armenian if he converts his religion to another, especially Islam! I think those people who did it have to be put to death!!! I think it is very mistaken when they say there are about one million of armenians in Turkey and saying that in the past most of them converted to Islam. These are the lowest pieces of shit you can get in the world. They fell to the ground to the lowest point! They are big shame for us! However i never met such an armenian. I might understand changing the surname, even though i think they are shameful as well, but not the religion!!!

Artur
P.S. About Catolics, i think Christian is Christian and that is it.

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited January 22, 2001).]

Artur jan you're 100% wright about Muslim Armenians!!If you're Muslim - you can't be Armenian!!It means disrespect towards our history and suffers...

Speaking about our religion....
I know a lot of Armenians that go to the church,wear a HUGE cross,call themselves Christians,but if talk about the essence of our religion with them ,you'll see that there's nothing they feel about it...BLANK..
If you call yourself a real Armenian Christian the walls of the church or the cross on the chest won't REALLY make you one...It's about your essence,your soul!!!
You have to feel Christian,not look Christian...

Dear Artur,

Please don't talk like this about the Muslims!
It is not right and it is too fascistic!

I know many great people who are Muslims , and dare say that they are more human and more kind hearted than many so-called Christians.
Please don't generalise , and please don't insult our Nation, because there are many non-Christian Armenian friends , who would get insulted and horrified by the tone of your posting.
I know you mean good , but watch your language and tone.

I believe I am a Christian, but this does not mean I have to disrespect other religions and other races.
We , who were the victims of racism and hate , cannot and should not act like our killers and our enemies ! Right ?

Finally, Armenian is the one who says and acts like an Armenian, no matter what his religion, political stand, sex orientation, skin colour etc. etc. etc.

What??? Muslim Armenians??? To be honest i've never seen or never heard about them. But if i would, i swear i would spit to the face of that armenian!!!!! I think those people deserve death and nothing more!!! It isn't my thought, it is the thinking of armenians, thinking of people, who through 1000 years kept the cross in their hands and came with it to 21 century with pride. People who were surrounded by muslims, but they couldn't destroy us! Now you are saying don't talk in such way???!!

Man, i have one God and one religion and i recognise One God and one religion, but i respect other religions. And i hate those armenians who convert to another religion, simple as that.

They are nothing but traitors, who fell to the ground like slaves and put their backs to those who died for the cross! I hope those people will just forget that they are armenians, and never say that they are!


Artur

P.S. DIE WITH PRIDE, RATHER THAN LIVE WITH SHAME!

That’s how it starts. First you spit on the face of Muslim Armenians, then you spit on the face of Krishnait Armenians, then on the face of Catholic Armenians, Protestant Armenians, then on Abarntsi, then on Gorisetsi, … then those who live in the Southern districts of Yerevan then in the Western districts, then those with blue eyes, and blond hair, and so on. Anybody who is not like you. At the end of the process, there is nobody else left, and you start a new race.

Muslims also recognize one God, and therefore it is the same God as we all do. Their religion is based on the Old Testament. They also accept Jesus, and honor him, true as a prophet only, but we don’t accept Mohammed as a prophet. So the confrontation between the Muslims and Christians originates not from the Muslims but the Christians.

I have had many Arab students and friends. They are Muslims. I have absolutely loved them for their intelligence and their character, and their humaneness.

Holding the cross in one’s hands doesn’t make one Christian, but rather a fetishist. It is like some African tribes worshipping their statues. Christianity doesn’t teach hating, but loving.

Armenians (or anybody else) don’t have an obligation to be Christians. They have a choice.

According to Jesus Christ, the Christianity is only a vehicle to receive the gift of eternal life from God. Jesus proclaims that he is the door of God, i.e. the path to eternal life passes through him. Therefore, if any feeling towards Muslims, and if we are indeed Christians, our feeling has to be one of a sympathy and pain that they have deprived themselves from the gift of eternity. This is what Christianity teaches us.

Artur, it is evident that you have a strong opinion regarding the Christian issues. There is nothing wrong with it. But I think you would be better off, if you first study them. First of all, you have to learn what is the difference between the Old and New Testaments. It requires reading them carefully, and perhaps not once. Then speak to people who have done it many times, and ask questions. My experience is that in Armenian reality it is hard to find people, especially in the Armenian Church (though there are some), who have studied Christianity and have really understood it. I would recommend taking advantage of your tenure in England, and attending Sunday ceremonies of a local protestant Church. They can teach you some real staff. You don’t have to convert, though they will insist it “for your own sake.�

Then I would also recommend reading Koran, and finding out if it really is that bad. And then, I think you would be in a position to make qualified judgments.

I hope you would not take my recommendations as insult, but rather think about them.

P.S. BTW, it is absolutely evident that you are an atheist.

What that suppose to mean??!!

And read koran???? Man, i won't do it even if someone would put a gun to my head! Do you know why? Because Christianity recognises one holy book: Bible! Have YOU read koran??

I don't understand where these too "civilised" armenians come from. :)

Again, as i said, i don't hate muslims, i have got nothing against any religion in this world. But those armenians, who convert to Islam, are shame, slaves, small pieces of shit.

MJ, have you ever entered Mosque?? Are you muslim??? Do you pray with muslims as well? Just too curious. Person who comes to this forum and starts insulting our religion, saying there is no such a thing like cross, and plus asking someone to read the koran (with small letter "k") has got to be a muslim.


Artur

P.S. MJ, i have an idea lets do this: you don't comment on my posting, i don't comment on yours... that would make it more easier. I gave you my e-mail, if you have your sayings or something against post it there and we will discuss. And also my posting is not an insult like yours, bro :)

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited January 25, 2001).]

Look Artur, I have no intentions to insult you, or anybody else, and I haven’t tried to do so. Additionally, I have no interest in having personal relations with you, so keep your personal email address private. There are at least a couple of reasons for it. I will only articulate the first one – you are almost half my age. So let’s not have illusions.
This is a public forum, and you post your opinions in a public form. Which means, if your opinions are invalid, they invite a public rebuttal.
My statement on you being an atheist is based on your own statements. It is clear to me that you use the name of God, but you don’t ascribe to the values God promotes through his Son. Which makes one to believe that you don’t really believe in God, you are using His name from moralistic and symbolic points of views. If you would’ve believed in God, you would’ve not advocated “putting the non-believers” to death, because it is quite the opposite of what God tells us to do, and you don’t recognize his authority. You would’ve also recognized that Apostle Paul, for example, on whose teaching the Armenian Church claims to be relaying, primarily, was not only a nonbeliever once, but was persecuting the believers. If you would’ve recognized Him as God, you wouldn’t disregard His authority. This is what my statement about your being an atheist means.
Now about Koran. You don’t have to recognize the Holiness of the Koran, so that to read it. You can read it so that to educate yourself. And yes, I have read Koran, and many other things. Do you read? I wonder what do you read?
The “civilized” Armenians come from the civilization. Contrary to you, I know where the uncivilized ones come from.
Now few answers. Yes I have entered Mosque, and I am not Muslim (I guess this question of yours is of a rhetoric character only).
I don’t pray with Muslims – have not been in such situation, but would not have a problem to do so. You see, the issue is not whom do you pray with, but who do you pray to…
Some of your postings make an impression of you being a smart guy, despite some indefensible thoughts that you express. And that was the only reason that I have thought you may be able to understand what I am saying. But I have no claims of being an authority for you. I just hope that you may recognize the authority of the Holly Book, as you advocate it, you may read it, and try to understand. If it doesn’t help, ask for help somebody that you are sure is in the position to help you. But again, I have not said there is no such thing as cross. I have said worshiping the Cross is about the same as to worship a statue.
I have no problems with not commenting on your postings. That’s what have I done for most of the time – out of an understanding that they don’t warrant a comment. The only reason I have done it lately is due to the implicit initiative you have demonstrated not long ago on a related topic.
I can absolutely guarantee you, bro , that it would be very easy for me to disregard your postings, and moreover, from this point on, too.

That's better, man.

Ok, i will not comment your reading Koran and being in Mosque, otherwise i will have to insult you :) As i said i wouldn't touch koran no matter what, because for is just one Holy book that i read. And that's it.

About religion, you are right. I have still a lot to learn. I comit many sins, but thats the life. However, i do pray 2 times a day, and read the Book almost daily.

You call me uncivilised, well that has to be a compliment?? :)))) Well, i stick to my traditions, morals. I respect what our forefathers gave us, in conrast to many armenians in the west who qeustion it.

Artur
P.S. MJ, come to my new website, comment on some issues bro. Except religion, stick what i say, ok? ::))))))

www.kavkaz-club.com

Nororya Aghotq

Arden 10 tari, 110 tari, 1010 tari
Yes vaxenum em,
Shat em vaxenum
Byuravor u but havatatsyalits.
Yete astvats eq -
Pchetseq nrants bolor momer@,
Maretseq nrants kanteghnern amen,
Hangtsreq nrants jahern aylazan,
Vor - yeghitsi luys.
Yev voch mi gavtum mi @ndunetseq
Nrants matagh@,
Vor irents@ che, ayl goghatsvats e.
Merjetseq nrants zohn el xostatsyal,
Vor...zoh ch@gna inq@ havat@ -
Maqur - vsem@,
Ankeghts - ansut@.
U te astvats eq -
Amur paketseq dzer akanjnern el
Nrants soghoskun aghotqi dimats -
Angir-inqnahos-hashvekshrvats ayn aghotqner@
Vorov xapum en voch irents ayl dzez.
Yev - bavakan e - haskatseq @ndmisht,
Vor astsun nuynisk hayhoyoghner@
Shat aveli en geradaseli,
Vasnzi nrants barkatsrel e inq@ havat@ -
Xotsvats-aryunot,
Ayrvogh-aptakvats,
Tsavats-jchatsogh,
Manuk havat@,
Vor hayr darnalu hamar e tsnvel.
U yete hayr eq -
Mi togheq,
Vor sut havatatsyalnern spanen nran.
-Inchqan el tsanr e manuk taghel@,
Manuk pahel@ tsanr e aveli...

Paruyr Sevak

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Amen

Artur, you needed to learn a lot of things outside religion, too. But there are certain things that if you have not learned by the age of 23, you will not learn them ever.

But there is one thing you can easily learn. That's the meaning of the word "atheism." Open some good dictionary or an encyclopedia. It is easy.

I bet your prayers come as a heavy burden for Jesus Christ. Poor Jesus. Imagine how many like you and worse has he to put up with.

Your traditions and morals? You would've shined under a better light, if you would've stuck to Armenian, and overall,Christian morals and traditions.

You don't have to read the Koran as a HOLY book, you can just read it as A book. For example there are many religion professors who are Christians, very devoted to Christianity, many of whom are ordained ministers, etc. who teach religion classes dealing with other religions. They don't practice those other religions they teach but have the knowledge and capability of teaching them at the university level. How do you explain that? Just curious.

P.S. Don't get me wrong. I am NOT trying to convince you to read the Koran.

[This message has been edited by BTac (edited January 26, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by BTac (edited January 26, 2001).]

MJ now you are questioning my traditions and morals???

Man you are freak, to be honest. I personally think you are big time messed up guy. Don't study too much that not good for you ::))) You've got nothing to do but to come to this forum and to unsult our pride. How old are you man??? You said you twice my age. Well, i think i won't even comment on that. Imagine my father would come to this forum to put his postings, just too funny for me. Maybe you have some psycological problems, then it is not my business to discover them. But one thing: it seems like you've got nothing to than to post 1000 messages and to comment on everything. Get on with your life, man. If you are older than me twice, what is the problem??? Argueing and offending a kid, calling him in such bad ways. Maaan, i won't even comment on you anymore...

However you have something to say then e-mail me: artur_arm@hotmail.com ... If you have some problem, i will meet you at chating, and we will solve like two men!!!

For now take care!
And get on with your life, earn some money for your future kids or something, grow up!

Tgha jun...

It is enough for anyone to read several of your postings as to understand who is the freak here, who is endowed by nothing but a big mouth, and a defected brain. Just one example “...my father doesn't believe in God,” “I think Armenians who call themselves atheists are not armenians.”

Am I questioning your traditions or morals? Do you follow any traditions or morals? Though I have to admit, I am not quite familiar with Kazakh traditions and morals.

If you are as concerned as you have said you were about being protected from “Satan,” instead of relaying on the Cross, work on your pathological pride, as not to be chosen by the “Satan” in the first place. I guess, this may sound like Chinese to you, right? How would you know, if you never read anything, nor have enough brain to understand what you read, since your brain would switch off, if the text is more than one page...

If your father had anything to post in this forum, you would've leaned something from him, and could've at least posted something normal that you had heard from him. And does your father know how are you wasting his money in England, or does he think you are there to study?

To discover who has psychological problems, one has to read only part of your former postings. And one can discover that you have not only psychological and intellectual problems, but you also have psychiatric and sexapathological problems. I hope you would not force me to expend in this direction.

You are having illusions if you think I am arguing with you. At some point, I tried to educate you. I thought you might be smart enough to pick something up. But, apparently, you are not from that material to learn. I am not arguing with you now, I am just saying "shut your lousy mouth,” and use it in proportion God has given you mouth and ears.

So that you can recommend me to go and earn some money, first you come down from the shoulders of your daddy, accomplish something in your life, beyond gaining a reputation of a moron, softly speaking, and as I have suggested you once, think hard, when you open your mouth, because nothing meaningful comes out of it when you speak. And it is not an issue of knowing English. Nothing meaningful comes from your mouth, even when you speak Russian, and I doubt that you can speak Armenian at all...

And before you feel you are in a position of talking "as a man," become one first, by not trying to establish your "manhood" at the expense of women.

MJ you just funny.

i've never insulted your intelegence or what so ever. But you have. Now how is the kid here???!!!!!!

See you just messed up, you get too nervous when some kid says the truth about you. Grown man would seriously ignore it. So again: get on with your life man.

Oh yeah, about Kazakhs. Kazakhs have the same mentality like russians. Thats' for you to learn :)) About armenian traditions, well all my friends like me. Then we've got to be not armenians. Probably MJ is right, his reading Koran and praying with muslims and calling chirstianity shit, and saying that cross is piece of material will make you an ARMENIAN. Well, then i am not an armenian sorry, i just don't match your definition of being Armenian!!!

About being man. You don't know me. The way i talk to you and the way you talk to me, shows who is man here. A kid, who is 19 year old, and just bought a car in England for his own money, which i earned with my friends also in England or a somewhere 30 year old Uncle who's got nothing to do but to open his mouth, and show off how intelegent he is argueing with a kid and posting somewhat 1000 posts in the forum...

Now we see who has some psycological problems. I haven't even said a word against you, but YOU started calling me moron and everything like that. Question for you: if i am stupid and idiot in comparison to mr. Brain MJ, who is too clever to argue with an idiot and coming to forum insult something that he should have been proud of...


I just lagh man on you...
That's the only my reaction...
::))))))

Artur
P.S. Come to kavkazchat.com, my nick: Vagr ... hope to see you there.

[This message has been edited by Artur (edited January 26, 2001).]

And i seriously ask Garo not to delete my postings. Man, leave it, please. Just lets see his reactions, he is already boiling on the other side of the line ::)))

Atheist is an overused word. In its true meaning "atheist" applies to someone who claims and is convinced that there is no God. Technically speaking someone who just doesn't know and claims they are uncertain about the existence of a God is labeled as an "agnostic". I know this sounds like a minor technicality but in reality there is a big difference between "atheist" and "agnostic".