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#21 Johannes

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 01:54 AM

QUOTE
Հայաստանեայց Աւետարանական Եկեղեցի

Սիրելի Հաւատացեալ, նիւթի վերաբերեալ ըսելիք չունիմ:
Ուշքս գրաւեց վերեւի մէջբերումը, զիս յիշեցնելով նորութիւն մը, զորս նկատած եմ:
Նորութիւնը սա է. «Մեծի Տանն Կիլիկիոյ Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Կաթողիկոս-Պատրիարք» տիտղոսը, որ առաջ չէի տեսաներ, բայց այժմ կը տեսնեմ մեր թերթերուն մէջ: Ի՞նչ ունիս ասելու. խնդրեմ ըսէ:


#22 RemainFaithful

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 09:33 AM

QUOTE(Johannes @ May 18 2007, 10:54 AM) View Post

Սիրելի Հաւատացեալ, նիւթի վերաբերեալ ըսելիք չունիմ:
Ուշքս գրաւեց վերեւի մէջբերումը, զիս յիշեցնելով նորութիւն մը, զորս նկատած եմ:
Նորութիւնը սա է. «Մեծի Տանն Կիլիկիոյ Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Կաթողիկոս-Պատրիարք» տիտղոսը, որ առաջ չէի տեսաներ, բայց այժմ կը տեսնեմ մեր թերթերուն մէջ: Ի՞նչ ունիս ասելու. խնդրեմ ըսէ:



Ես չեմ նկատած այս նորութիւնը: Եթէ կ՛ուզէք այս նիւթին վերաբերեալ ըսել մեզի թէ ի՞նչ է այս նորութեան յատկանիշը, եւ թէ առաջ ի՞նչ/ինչպէ՞ս կը գրուեր թերթերուն մէջ:

#23 RemainFaithful

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:54 AM

The title "Soviet background separates two Armenian churches in US" is somehow disturbing. I have never experienced this dichotomy. If the article below is not true, then why is it mentioned? What is the explanation of this? I thought that the 2 churches have passed their differences, and that both were legitimate and not a sect. But here comes an article that shows the opposite.


QUOTE
Axcess News
Thursday, 28 June 2007

Soviet background separates two Armenian churches in US

By Olesya Vartanyan

(AXcess News) Washington - There are two Armenian churches in the Northwestern part of the city that are a 10 minute walk from each other. But the relationship distance is farther than that.

Although these churches have the same religious ceremonies and books, they are led by two different Catholicoses, who are the heads of different branches - similar to archbishops - of the same Armenian Apostolic Church. Both claim to be the Armenian Apostolic Church, but since 1958 they officially have operated separately. The split occurred because of Soviet-era politics. Each says the other is also part of the church, but they don't cooperate, and at times members refused to allow their children to marry each other.

The churches are called the Etchmiadzin branch and the Cilicia branch by some, though neither church accepts those names officially, each calling itself Armenian Apostolic. The two names come from Armenian geographic areas. Cilicia is now part of Turkey.

About 1 million Armenians live in the U.S., according to the Armenian Embassy. A third of them are in one church, and another third are in the other, according to these churches. The rest don't usually go to these churches.

The division of the Armenian Apostolic Church in the U.S. began after the Revolution of Bolsheviks in the former Soviet Union in 1917. One part of the Armenian Church claimed it want to be separate from the head, whose seat was in Etchmiadzin, Armenia. Armenia was then a Soviet republic, and some Armenians in the U.S. thought Moscow tried to use the Armenian Church to promote Communists' ideas outside the country.

In Armenian Apostolic Churches all over the U.S., priests from the different churches sometimes didn't talk to each other.

"First time [after the division], Armenian families usually didn't let men from one church to marry ladies from another church. But then the situation improved," said a priest from the Etchmiadzin branch's St. Mary Church in Washington, the Rev. Father Vertanes Kalayjian.

An Armenian man, Daron Bolat, 29, who runs an Armenian youth organization, is not married but he said it wouldn't matter to him if his wife came from another church. He said 15 years ago it was sometimes a problem for local Armenians if a fiancee was from one church and a fiance from the other.

"I know some stories when family didn't talk to their girl because she married to a boy from another church," Bolat said.

All his family attends the Etchmiadzin branch's church in Washington. He has never been in the neighbor Cilicia branch's church, as he is "always on Sunday services in my church," he said.

"I don't think they are bad. I don't have anything against them," Bolat said.

Since the collapse of the USSR, there is no longer any suspicion about political alienation of the Etchmiadzin Church toward Communists. But the churches don't seem to be in a hurry to reunite.

An expert in political issues, Gevorg Melikyan, who is a vice-president of a nonprofit organization, "National Spiritual Security" in Yerevan, Armenia, said in an e-mail that politics is the main reason the churches haven't gotten back together.

The idea of a separation of two churches was promoted by the Armenian Revolutionary Party also known as Dashnaktsutun. This social-democratic party ruled Armenia for about a year in 1920s before the Soviet Bolsheviks occupied the country. Some of ARP's rulers immigrated to the U.S. and tried to struggle against Communists from
here.

Members of this party once were not allowed to attend Etchmiadzin branch churches in U.S. It became one of the reasons ARP began to discourage people from attending these churches and for bringing the Cilicia church's representatives here from Lebanon. It became a scandal inside the Armenian community.

"Once, they came to one of our services and were pretending they were coming to the priest to kiss the cross. They came, surrounded the priest and killed him with knives during the service," Kalayjian said.

He still believes ARP has an influence on the Cilicia Church.

"If there were not Dashnaks, we would unite," he said.

Kalayjian represents a common point of view in the Armenian Community. Some of them think that ARP has an interest in a separate Cilicia Church to preserve its influence among Armenians.

ARP is one of the influential political parties in the Armenian Parliament today. But some experts say that ARP's main force is in the Armenian Diaspora, which includes about 6 million people around the world, according to the official statistics of Armenian government.

The executive director of the American National Committee of Armenia, which is the U.S. East Cost representative of ARP, Jirayr Beugekian said there was a stereotype of their interest of having Armenian churches apart.

"We have a long history in cooperating with the Cilicia Church. And with the Etchmiadzin Church, we began work not a long time ago. So sometimes people say we work more with Cilicia church, but for us they both are the same as long as there is no Soviet regime any more," Beugekian said.

"There is no political solution to this problem. The religious Churches should agree with each other," he said.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, a new government of an independent Armenia tried to support the unification of two Armenian churches. But until now, these Churches have only official relations.

A priest of Cilicia branch's St. Cross Church a few blocks outside Washington in Maryland, the Rev. Father Sarkis Aktavoukian said he had some personal contacts with people from the other church. But he said that there were some people in the Etchmiadzin branch who offended him personally when they sometimes said that "we are a sect."

"I know that our heads are talking about unification. But there are some details in their disputes that we don't know," Aktavoukian said.

In the U.S., two public commissions were formed to discuss possible reunion of churches. John Jerikyan of Washington participated in both. He said there was no possibility to settle this dispute as "some sides didn't want to unite." He said that, besides background problems, some people have personal reasons for not uniting.

"It's a financial dispute. You lose control, you lose money if they are together," Jerikyan said.

Jerikyan, 67, is a salesman who attends Cilicia branch St. Cross Church. All his family is in this church. Jerikyan said a priest from another church is his good friend.

"I don't want it to be as it is now. Who wins? Nobody wins! I wish to have a united church to bring there my grandchildren, " Jerikyan said.

But Kalayjian, the priest from the neighboring Etchmiadzin branch's Church, said that the unification will not happen in a short period.

"There should be a very strong person to unite these two Churches. Now we don't have such a man," he said.

Source: Scripps Howard Foundation Wire

http://www.axcessne ws.com/index. php/articles/ show/id/11419


#24 Johannes

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE(RemainFaithful @ May 18 2007, 06:33 PM)
Ես չեմ նկատած այս նորութիւնը: Եթէ կ՛ուզէք այս նիւթին վերաբերեալ ըսել մեզի թէ ի՞նչ է այս նորութեան յատկանիշը, եւ թէ առաջ ի՞նչ/ինչպէ՞ս կը գրուեր թերթերուն մէջ:

Նախապէս կը գրուէր. «Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Պատրիարք»

Այժմ կը գրուի .«Մեծի տանն Կիլիկիոյ Կաթողիկէ Հայոց Կաթողիկոս-Պատրիարք»

Edited by Johannes, 04 July 2007 - 12:49 AM.


#25 annannimusss

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 02:04 PM

It is funny how correct the article is. If the Church Unites the Tashnags will lose a lot of power. In Fresno the ARF Branch tried to take the deed of the Church, and when the Hysoorp said no they in a sense kicked him out.

#26 RemainFaithful

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE(Sako***** @ Jul 3 2007, 11:04 PM)
It is funny how correct the article is. If the Church Unites the Tashnags will lose a lot of power. In Fresno the ARF Branch tried to take the deed of the Church, and when the Hysoorp said no they in a sense kicked him out.


But is it only the issue of the Tashnags? What about the Cilician and Echmiadzin priests? Will the Cilician Church lose its "power", and money as mentioned in the article?

If the two Apostolic Armenian Churches are labeling each other to be a sect, then the case of the Armenian Evangelical Church is out of question. As far as I know, there was an attempt to closer the gaps between the Armenian Apostolic and the Armenian Evangelical Churches in the 1960s, but the efforts went in vain because of Church politics I think.

#27 annannimusss

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 10:24 PM

I will ask about the Evangelical Church thing in the 60's and 70's. The issue of priest's as far as I know is not a big deal. The ones from Echmiadzin in the west coast that I have talked to have said that we really need to combine.

And I personally don't think that Echmiadzin would liquadate the assets of Cilicia. They almost reconciled when Vazgen CAtholicos died and the Cilician Catholicos became Echmiadzins Catholicos, but I have no idea what happened. I have never been able to get a strait answer from anyone, but I will ask the Armenian studies professer, and he should tell me.

#28 abass80

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 12:20 AM

QUOTE(Sako***** @ Jul 5 2007, 07:24 AM)
They almost reconciled when Vazgen Catholicos died and the Cilician Catholicos became Echmiadzins Catholicos, but I have no idea what happened. I have never been able to get a strait answer from anyone, but I will ask the Armenian studies professor, and he should tell me.


what happened next has been discussed in a topic in this forum but i don't remember in which one! biggrin.gif

Echmiadzin accepted the Catholicos of Cilicia Karekin I (after pressure from the then president Der Bedrosian) as a leader of the Church hoping that he well help in bridging the gap between the 2 Catholicosates! of course Karekin I did the exact opposite thing!

Throughout the diaspora the tashnags have tried to take control of as many churches as they can! and i'm afraid that that will not change in the future simply because the tashnags don't think that they r doing anything wrong! they believe that in order for their party to survive and grow every measure is acceptable and should be taken!
But the problem is not only the tashnags! They r taking over because in many cases there is nobody there to challenge them! Let me give u an example of what happened here in Greece @nger Sako! decades ago the tashnags took over the church from the echmiatznagans! they used force, they had the government's support because they labeled the ramgavars as communists (whenever i hear this i want to laugh! an extreme-left party accuses a center-right part of being communists) and to cut long things short they took over! whenever u talk with an older ramgavar or an echmiatznagan they complain that the tashnags used to beat them up and throw them out of the church! after hearing all these stories and getting tired from listening to them, one day i asked why they didn't hit back! i got no answer! smile.gif
u see sako tashnags took the churches because they simply could! nobody went against them! they were too afraid! that's why we can not only blame the tashnags! we know what they want to do and what they r capable of doing so we have 2 options either let them do it and shut up or take a stance against them and try to make them understand that what they r doing is not in the best interest of the armenian nation!

#29 Shahan Araradian

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 01:20 AM

QUOTE(abass80 @ Jul 5 2007, 01:20 AM)
what happened next has been discussed in a topic in this forum but i don't remember in which one! biggrin.gif

Echmiadzin accepted the Catholicos of Cilicia Karekin I (after pressure from the then president Der Bedrosian) as a leader of the Church hoping that he well help in bridging the gap between the 2 Catholicosates! of course Karekin I did the exact opposite thing!

Throughout the diaspora the tashnags have tried to take control of as many churches as they can! and i'm afraid that that will not change in the future simply because the tashnags don't think that they r doing anything wrong! they believe that in order for their party to survive and grow every measure is acceptable and should be taken!
But the problem is not only the tashnags! They r taking over because in many cases there is nobody there to challenge them! Let me give u an example of what happened here in Greece @nger Sako! decades ago the tashnags took over the church from the echmiatznagans! they used force, they had the government's support because they labeled the ramgavars as communists (whenever i hear this i want to laugh! an extreme-left party accuses a center-right part of being communists) and to cut long things short they took over! whenever u talk with an older ramgavar or an echmiatznagan they complain that the tashnags used to beat them up and throw them out of the church! after hearing all these stories and getting tired from listening to them, one day i asked why they didn't hit back! i got no answer! smile.gif
u see sako tashnags took the churches because they simply could! nobody went against them! they were too afraid! that's why we can not only blame the tashnags! we know what they want to do and what they r capable of doing so we have 2 options either let them do it and shut up or take a stance against them and try to make them understand that what

Guys, all this talk about Tashnags and Ramgavars is sort of funny. Do Ramgavars even *exist* anymore?

If so, when/where do they meet (let's say near California)? I would like to attend to see their points of views.

QUOTE(abass80 @ Jul 5 2007, 01:20 AM)
they r doing is not in the best interest of the armenian nation!

then whose interest? Turkey?

#30 RemainFaithful

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 10:42 AM

Shahan, shall I understand that you agree that the ARF has taken hold of the Cilician Church?

I wish there was someone who knew more about the theological and ecclesiological issues that would rise when a Church is controlled by bodies that have other agendas rather than Christ's agenda.

Why does the ARF control the Cilician Church, what do they gain from it? What about the Ramgavars, do they control any church within "their" regions?

Is it normal for a Church to be governed by the Ramgavars, Hnchagians, Tashnags? The elected people who serve in the Church have their own affiliation, yes, but how much of that should be interfered within the Church.
Won't the Church become another kind of "agoump"?
These men and women ought to be azkayin, by all means, but not gousagtzagan.

#31 annannimusss

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 02:23 PM

I to have a sad story to tell, that had a happy ending, then a sad one. In Zahle, Lebanon where my dads and part of my moms family was from. My dad was only a small boy when it happened but my Great Aunt remembers the day well. The Tashnags in town were going to try to steal the Church. So what my Great-Granpa and other community leaders did is get all the Armenian youth and people to lock arms and surround the Church to stop the Tashnags from coming in. My dad was inside the Church at this time because he was small. But my Great-Grandpa also had called the city police to help, and they to surrounded the Church. At this time there was a Church service held and at this service and we said the name of Vazgen Catholicos not the one in Antillias. The Tashnags were trying to hold a service and say the name of there Catholicos who was illegally elected by the way. There was only one Armenian Bishop there to ordain him and they had to use a Assyrian one. Or they had two and needed three I forgot the exact number. Anyway for a while there was always a policeman there to stand guard against the Tashnags from trying to steal the Church. At this point in time only Two or Three Churches would say Vazgen CAtholicos during the service, the one in Tripoli and another one I think. The church has since been stolen by the Tashnags, because they evetually became the majority in the town.

Edited by SakoPasha, 05 July 2007 - 02:30 PM.


#32 annannimusss

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 02:24 PM

Here is the French one . I don't know if you can speak french or how updated this site is.

http://lalettre.hayway.org/


Here is the Ramgavar english site, it is under construction.

http://www.adl-ramga...r/subscribe.php


Also they have many events my Aunts and Uncles go to, and the Armenian Rights Council-United States is there monthly publication, I think. I have it in front of me right now.

Edited by SakoPasha, 05 July 2007 - 02:33 PM.


#33 annannimusss

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 02:29 PM

AN APPEAL TO ALL ARMENIANS Armenian verson


During recent years, a number of Armenian individuals have considered themselves “authorized” to establish relations with organizations or individuals directly affiliated to Turkish authorities, with the pretext of “Consolidating relationships between Armenia and Turkey .”

The Armenian Democratic Liberal (Ramgavar) Party is fundamentally and categorically opposed to all such arbitrary and unauthorized action, regardless of whoever the Armenian individual(s) may be. The exigency right of the Armenian Cause (Hay Tad) is a highly political issue belonging exclusively to Western Armenians. And therefore, all action taken in this respect must be approved and supervised solely through the political parties in the Diaspora. Consequently, any relationship with Turkish authorities or any subordinate group should be established by the approval and instruction of appropriate political parties in order that coordination and consistency prevail.

It should also be emphatically outlined that the sole aim and motivation of all types of relations and negotiation with the Turks serve the highest interests of the Armenian nation.

The Armenian Democratic Liberal (Ramgavar) party is directly opposed to any and all “peacemaking” action undertaken through private individual(s) or groups. Considering this kind of initiative to be extremely harmful, blameworthy and perfidious, the ADLP will not spare any means to unmask and to call to account all wrongdoers.
In this respect, we appeal to all our compatriots to convey any and all information concerning any Armenian individual or group trying to extend any level of relationship with the Turks. Our e-mail address is: watchdogcommittee@ramgavar.org

At this fatefully decisive point in the pursuit of Armenian Cause, it is absolutely unacceptable to tolerate petty and ignorant betrayal of our nation for the sake of material or other gain by trampling the highest interests of our nation.

Armenian Democratic Liberal Party (Ramgavar)


http://www.ramgavarparty.org/home.html

Edited by SakoPasha, 05 July 2007 - 02:36 PM.


#34 RemainFaithful

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 10:03 AM

Sako, it is not about the Tashnags or Ramgavars controlling the Church, but that the Church be governed by its people, who believe in Christ and will spread the good news that Christ has risen for all mankind, so all those who believe in Him, shall be saved.

The Church is not a place for political, gousagtzagan or personal agendas to be served in. Unfortunately, this seems to be the status quo, to which no armenian apostolic would argue against, because this is the way every armenian apostolic has been raised.

Only recently, groups of armenian apostolic believers, who are reading the Bible, are finding that there a lot of issues that need to discussed within their Churches.

#35 annannimusss

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:33 PM

I know, the Ramgavars don't have anything to do with the Church. But the Tashnags are putting there nose where it does not belong. They should keep themselves out of Church business.

Edited by SakoPasha, 06 July 2007 - 11:34 PM.


#36 Dave

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 12:21 AM

QUOTE
Why does the ARF control the Cilician Church, what do they gain from it? What about the Ramgavars, do they control any church within "their" regions?

Is it normal for a Church to be governed by the Ramgavars, Hnchagians, Tashnags? The elected people who serve in the Church have their own affiliation, yes, but how much of that should be interfered within the Church.
Won't the Church become another kind of "agoump"?
These men and women ought to be azkayin, by all means, but not gousagtzagan.


The ARF doesn't exactly "control" the Cilician Church. The ARF and the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia complementarize each other in order to create successful and sustainable Armenian communities throughout the world. That's how it is everywhere; from Beirut, to Montreal, to LA. It makes for pretty solid mini-societies. This is what has made them so successful over the years, and this is why the other Armenian political parties of the diaspora have evaporated from the scene. I don't see what's wrong about this... If the others can't do it, why shouldn't the tashnags do it themselves? Besides, it's not like the ramgavars wouldn't be able to pray in the church... Anyone can, even non-Armenians and non-Christians.

Դաշնակցութեան դրօշին տակ միացէք ու վերջանանք ալ...
tongue.gif

Edited by Dave, 07 July 2007 - 12:26 AM.


#37 Shahan Araradian

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE(RemainFaithful @ Jul 5 2007, 11:42 AM)
Shahan, shall I understand that you agree that the ARF has taken hold of the Cilician Church?

I wish there was someone who knew more about the theological and ecclesiological issues that would rise when a Church is controlled by bodies that have other agendas rather than Christ's agenda.

Why does the ARF control the Cilician Church, what do they gain from it? What about the Ramgavars, do they control any church within "their" regions?

Is it normal for a Church to be governed by the Ramgavars, Hnchagians, Tashnags? The elected people who serve in the Church have their own affiliation, yes, but how much of that should be interfered within the Church.
Won't the Church become another kind of "agoump"?
These men and women ought to be azkayin, by all means, but not gousagtzagan.

It's not a crime for a person to be BOTH a member of the church and a political party!!!

If it so happens that members of the church are also members of a political party, then it is what it is: members of the church are also members of a political party!

It DOESN'T mean the political party is controlling the Church!

It's like being a member of two book clubs; do you therefore conclude that one book club controls the other?

How do you want people to be "azgayin" without being involved in an organization with a NAME as in ARF?? All organizations, at the end of the day, will have a name, even an "azgayin" one.

You want Armenians to be "Armenians" without being members of Armenian organizations!

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 07 July 2007 - 11:50 AM.


#38 annannimusss

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 07:07 PM

The thing is that I don't want to see the Armenian Church ran by political parties for political gains.

#39 Shahan Araradian

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 10:24 PM

QUOTE(Sako***** @ Jul 7 2007, 08:07 PM)
The thing is that I don't want to see the Armenian Church ran by political parties for political gains.

What "political" gains? Do you think the ARF is an American political party?

The ARF really ISN'T a "political party." Think about it: what politicians is it bringing into ANY government (with the RECENT exception of Armenia and Lebanon).

The ARF really is a SOCIAL organization, with a network of branches in Armenian communities throughout the world. It shouldn't be surprising to you that the Armenian individuals who partake in the community organization known as the ARF (along with all of its children/sister organizations) are also members of another Armenian organization known as the Armenian church: people are socially active in their community tend to be in more than one community organization...

So let's quit this non-sense of ARF being a political party with "political gains." The ARF is composed of members of the Armenian community all working towards the collective well-being of the Armenian community.

Every community organization has a name. And if you're part of one, then -- like it or not -- you'll be part of an organization with a name, like ARF or ՀՄԸՄ or ANC or AGBU or UAS or AYF.

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 07 July 2007 - 10:25 PM.


#40 annannimusss

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 02:26 AM

Your not getting the point. The ARF should not control the Antillias Church. Simple as that. Yes my family are Ramgavars and used to be on the Parish Council, but they did not try to control the Echmiadzin Church so that the Ramgavars would become stronger and more dominant. They ran the church as a spiritual institution, not as a political one. And ran it for well being of the church and the people there. The Tashnags try to steal churches and take deeds of churches, is that right?




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