76 replies to this topic

[Ata Donme]

There is a great rise in numbers within two groups of Armenians: those that want to convert and be ethnically Black American and those that want to convert and be ethnically Mexican. A major social study should be funded to really get an understanding of these strange and useless people and the implications of the nature of culture that manifest themselves in this perplexing phenomenon.

Jeex, your telling me!
I wonder what will happen to the CA Armenian youth in time!
BUUUUTTTTTTTTT thats outside this topic!

Lets just say that these kind of topics show that not all us Diasporans have sold out and retain a keen interest in our culture and history, and of course, our future.

[Ata Donme]

poet SARMAD

Sarmad, a convert to Sufism from an Armenian Jewish ? family in Iran, arrives in Sind around 1631 and soon becomes (in)famous for his passionate love of a Hindu boy named Abhay Chand; he wanders naked in the streets, reciting Persian poetry. A defender of Dara Shikoh's, he is executed by Aurangzeb around 1661/2. Discussion:

Link > http://www.crda-fran...nde_sarmad1.htm
Some of  his  work
>

1/
Thou hast made thyself famous in winning hearts,
Also in the art of friendship and affection,
Those eyes which are vigilant are observant of thyself;
Every moment thou showest thyself in a hundred colors.

- 2/
If I am a devotee, my object is the Friend,
What have I to do with the rosary and the sacerdotal thread !
This woolen garment wherein lie a hundred evils
Never shall I put on my shoulder : it is disgusting to me.

- 3/
Our every-day avocation is villainy and wickedness.
Our flatterers and vessels have been filled with sins.
Creation is laughing and life is wailing
At our prayers, genuflections and fastings.

- 4/
Sarmad is a body, his soul is in the hand of another:
An arrow, but its bow is in the hand of another.
He wished to be a man in order to jump out of the nest.
He became a cow whose tether is in the hand of another.

-5/
Not only are these temples and sanctuaries
His house This earth and this sky are entirely His abode.
The whole world is mad about His fictions.
He is truly mad who is mad about Him.

- 6/
His tyrannous passion, ho ! is Satan :
Always visible, yet hidden.
Thou art thyself the Devil, why are thou ill-disposed to the Devil?
Before thy thoughts, he is bewildered.

- 7/
Sarmad ! If He is true to his word, He Himself will come :
If His coming is permissible, He Himself will come.
Why shouldst thou wander aimlessly after Him?
Sit down : if He be the Khud-a(*3) ; He Himself will come.

- 8/
Sarmad ! the pang of love is not given to the self-seeking,
The fire in the heart of the moth is not given to the fly.
It takes a life-time for the beloved to come to the lap :
This everlasting wealth is not given to every one.

- 9/
Although a hundred friends have turned mine enemies,
Owing to the friendship of the one, my mind has become contented.
I have accepted Unity and been freed from multiplicity
At last I became of Him and He of me.

- 10/
He who gave thee the sovereignty of the world,
Gave me all the causes of anxiety.
He covered with a garment those with whom He found fault.
To the faultless He gave the robe of nudity.(*4)

- 11/
O King of Kings. I am not a hermit like thee, I am not nude,
I am frenzied, I am distracted, but I am not depressed,
I am an idolator, I am an infidel, I am not of the people of the faith,
I go towards the mosque, but I am not a Mussulman.

- 12/
Pass on from the wordly fancy, thought and care.
Like the breeze of morn pass on from the garden and field.
Be not mad on the colour and smell of the rose and wine,
Be wise, pass on from these hallucinations.

- 13/
Sarmad ! thou shouldst shorten thy murmurings.
Thou shouldst adopt one course out of these two courses—
Either, thou shouldst give thy body for the pleasure of the Friend;
Or, thou shouldst sacrifice thy life in His way.

- 14/
To put trust in the promises of the man of the world is wrong :
Yea wrong, verily wrong to-night wrong, to-morrow wrong.
Of the copy of the inquiry of our Book of life do not ask.
Its transcriptions are wrong, meaning wrong, composition wrong, and spellings wrong.

- 15/
I have no business with the fancy and thought of others.
In composing a ghazal, I adopt the manner of Hafez.
But in a rubai (quatrain) I am the disciple of Khayyam,
But do not quaff much of his wine.(*5)

- 16/
Sarmad ! speak not of the Kaaba and of the temple.
In the valley of doubt do not wander like the strayed wayfarer.
Go and learn from Satan(*6) how to worship.
Accept one qebla and do not bow before every stranger.

- 17/
Say, who is in the world that has not committed a sin?
He who has sinned not : say, how could he live?
I do evil thou requitest with evil,
Then say, what is the difference between me and thee?

- 18/
Sometimes thou are a cypress, sometimes a hyacinth and sometimes a jasmine,
Now a mountain, a wilderness, and at another time a flower-garden.
Now thou are the light of a candle, now the scent of a rose,
Sometimes thou art in a garden, and sometimes in an assembly.

- 19/
Sarmad ! thou hast done strange injury to the religion,
Thou hast bartered thy faith for one with an intoxicating eye.
With supplication and belief —thy entire wealth—
Thou didst go and squander on an idol-worshipper.(*7)

- 20/
He who believed in the secret of esoteric doctrine, Became more expanded than the expanded heavens. The Mulla [doctor] says that Ahmad [Mohammad] went up to heaven, Sarmad says that heaven came down into Ahmad [Mohammed ](*8)

(*1) Kaaba is the inner part of the temple at Mecca. "Hajrul Aswad", or the black stone, has come down from the time of heathenism in Arabia, and is venerated by the pilgrims who flock to Mecca every year from all parts of the Mohammedan world.

(*2) A "qalandar" is a darwish of a different sect.

(*3) "Khuda" is here used in a double sense. "Khuda" is the Persian word God and "Khud-a" means a self-comer.

(*4) Sarmad's clothes' philosophy or "Sartor resartus" is beautifully expressed in this quatrain.

(*5) Sarmad who himself was a great poet, pays a well-deserved compliment to two of the greatest poets of Persia—Hafiz the master of "ghazal", justly called the Anacreon of the East and Omar Khayyam, the tent-maker philosopher of Nishapur whose quatrains are greatly admired in the East and in the West.

(*6) According to Mohammedan tradition, the Devil fell for refusing to pay homage to Adam at the command of God.

(*7) In this beautiful quatrain, Sarmad apparently refers to his prosperous and happy days at Thatta, his love for the Hindoo lad Abhai Chand, his neglect of his flourishing business as a merchant and his renunciation of the exoteric religion of Islam, being a faithful follower of the esoteric doctrine of the Safis.

(*8) This fatal distitch brought on his head the wrath of the Emperor Aurungzebe—the bigot, the fanatic and the assassin— and he was beheaded by the order of the Emperor for blasphemy, in 1661 A.D. the capital city of Delhi where his grave can be seem to this day.

“Armenians in India”, Mesrovb Jacob SETH, Calcutta 1937, (pp 188-192)

Vay Astdavdz!
If that is the kind of words Sarmad, the Armenian from Isfahan, was saying, then no wonder Sultan Aurangzebe had him beheaded!
I just thought it was down to this....
" It is said that Mohammed went to heaven,
But I Sarmad say that Heaven came to Mohammed"

And of course he was walking arounf stark naked in the fashion of a Guru !
Most unacceptable in the cities of Moghul Islamic India.

[Ata Donme]

This was stated in an article that I read. I believe that it was in Groong.

It appears that the article was wrong about this. Obviously someone mistook Persian for Armenian.

As for Peck, this all stated when my French Armenian cousin visited me in Hermosa Beach shortly after having dinner with her husband's cousins in Bel Air who were next door neighbors with Veronique and Gregory Peck. They told me that the cousins told them Peck was part Armenian and was taking Armenian lessons.

Very interesting I am sure, but very outside this topic! lol!
It is easy to poo poo our history and gobble up all the crap that is pumped into your heads via the idiot box as Gospel
But Armenians have any fame in history, nahhhhh!
You do the gossip, I do the history, deal?

[Artaxias]

I doubt she was Armenian, even if there was a any Armenian blood how can anyone give a rats ass about such a sorry excuse for a human being?
A mudslim cannot be Armenian.

[Takoush]

How about Rouben Mamoulian the genious ex Hollywood Director. Talking about turning into Islam.

This guy Mamoulian didn't even want to change his name; and because of it, no matter how genious he was, I believe they told him to leave the industry if he refuses to change his name and he left.

Takouhi

[phantom22]

Armenians have learned to be flexible, to assimilate somewhat. Our history has dealt us difficult circumstances. Always being conquered.

Does anyone realize how badly the Byzantines, fellow Christians, treated us despite the fact that many of the rulers of Byzantium were Armenian.

As for Mamoulian, this was common practice in Hollywood. Italians, Jews, even Anglos with funny-sounding names were required to change their names.

Edited by phantom22, 30 August 2005 - 10:47 AM.

[phantom22]

This phenomenon occurs in other ethnic groups as well.

Do you all realize that many of the so-called White Anglo country-club set of Los Angeles are descended from Mexicans who were a mix (Mestizo) of Spanish, Indian and African?

There is a group known as "Los Californianos," the descendants of the Mexican landowners of Alta California. These folks are mostly quite wealthy and although they acknowledge a Spanish background, refuse to face the historical fact that their ancestors, the landowning Californios, were a mixed race people.

Edited by phantom22, 30 August 2005 - 11:32 AM.

[Takoush]

Armenians have learned to be flexible, to assimilate somewhat. Our history has dealt us difficult circumstances. Always being conquered.

As for Mamoulian, this was common practice in Hollywood. Italians, Jews, even Anglos with funny-sounding names were required to change their names.

Yes absolutely about your first paragraph; our history speaks for itself of course.

In the case of Mamoulian; I know quite well Phantom that in Hollywood it was common practice to have actors and Directors, etc. to change their foreign names; however my point was that Mamoulian did not. He was told to stay and change his name or leave. He preferred to leave than change his name.
For all intensive purposes I was comparing it with Armenians that refused to change their religion; yet this man didn't even want to change his Armenian name for the love of his Armenianness. Interesting man.

Anahid

[phantom22]

Yes, Mamoulian was unique for his time.

Heditsian became "Hedison."

Ohanian became "Connors."

Kazanjian dropped her last name and became solely "Arlene Francis."

Sarkissian had already been adopted by stepfather LaPiere but dropped all, even her married name and became solely "Cher."

Aznavourian became "Aznavour."

Yet, Boghosian has kept his surname.

Edited by phantom22, 30 August 2005 - 11:49 AM.

[MosJan]

Yes, if you read this page you will find out more about her
It is very startling when learning these things, just how global our people have been in the past, as they are now.

Thanks For the Link - good info - most of it i have been loking for some time now
Thanks

MOvses

[Artaxias]

Armenians have learned to be flexible, to assimilate somewhat. Our history has dealt us difficult circumstances. Always being conquered.

Does anyone realize how badly the Byzantines, fellow Christians, treated us despite the fact that many of the rulers of Byzantium were Armenian.

They treated everyone badly who was non-Chalcedonian. Be they Greek or Armenian. That's nothing, at least there was an Empire with a system worthy of protection.

Justify non-Chalcedonian Armenians massacring Paulician Armenians en masse!

[Artaxias]

This phenomenon occurs in other ethnic groups as well.

Do you all realize that many of the so-called White Anglo country-club set of Los Angeles are descended from Mexicans who were a mix (Mestizo) of Spanish, Indian and African?

There is a group known as "Los Californianos," the descendants of the Mexican landowners of Alta California. These folks are mostly quite wealthy and although they acknowledge a Spanish background, refuse to face the historical fact that their ancestors, the landowning Californios, were a mixed race people.

lol
Come on, do you really think a mestizo, regardless of its name can be mistaken for an Anglo or any other White person for that matter?

Most of the early Mexican land owners were Whites, even now there are plenty. Look at President Fox for example.

Mexican mestizo:
http://www.corozal.c...mestz084.wq.jpg

Mexican White:
http://gilmoregirls....ledel_Pub01.jpg

Edited by Artaxias, 30 August 2005 - 01:22 PM.

[phantom22]

Artaxias,

After a few generations of intermarriage, yes they can pass. I personally know some of these people. I also know exactly who they are descended from and the exact racial mixture of their ancestry. I also have pictures of their ancestors which attests to their mixed blood.

Sometimes this can be very embarassing. I have a cousin who lives in a community that was so "lily-white" that it did not even except Jews. My relatives got in by passing for Europeans (that side of my famly are germag hyes with light hair and eyes who could easily pass for kermanatzis) and lying about their ancestry.

After having three white children one of their neighbors, a family whose ancestry was in the Southern USA, had a black child. It seems that it was later revealed that both parents had some ancient black ancestry.

A germag friend of mine married a beautiful stewardess of Japan Airlines. The first child closely resembles the wife. The second child has light hair and blue eyes. This meant that the mother had recessive Caucasian genes.
After much crying the grandmother revealed that her grandmother was the illigitimate daughter of a geisha girl and a Portuguese sailor in Nagasaki.

Edited by phantom22, 30 August 2005 - 03:02 PM.

[phantom22]

Artaxias,

The mass pogroms by the Armenian nobles and church of Paulician and Tondrakian Armenian Christians is the most absurb element of Armenian history. It greatly weakened our numbers in our ancestral lands and opened us up to invasion. Those who were not outright killed escaped to the Balkans and Southern France where they were again persecuted.

You would think that our ecclesiastical leaders would have learned a lesson by this, not a chance!

Edited by phantom22, 30 August 2005 - 03:53 PM.

[Arvestaked]

That the wife of Shah Jahan was Armenian is news to me and very unlikely. Just like some people still claim that Gregory Peck or Gwen Stefani are Armenian.

I couldn't find anything Armenian about her:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mumtaz_Mahal

Gregory Peck had an Armenian grandfather.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000060/bio

"He had Catholic Armenian roots from his paternal grandfather, Sam "Peck," an immigrant from England. After he married his second wife, Veronique Passani, she had his ancestry traced and discovered the Armenian lineage. Urging him to learn of his partial Armenian heritage and to learn the Armenian language, he took Armenain classes in his middle age. But by then his public persona was fixed. "Gregory" is a common Indo-European name and Armenian surname (Gregorian or Krikorian) and was the name of Saint Gregory the Illuminator, Apostle of Armenia (332 AD)."

"He was of British, Irish, Scottish and Armenian heritage."


Gwen Stefani has no Armenian blood in her at all. I even remember going to the No Doubt website a long time ago and to read the FAQ to see if there was a mention of it. They adressed the claims and said she is not Armenian.

Edited by Arvestaked, 30 August 2005 - 03:03 PM.

[phantom22]

Sam Peck was only part-Armenian. Yet, actor Gregory Peck's Armenian heritage was more than Princess Diana's.

Someone should write a history about all the Armenians who intermarried with Brits in the British Empire and its colonies.

Eliza Kewark (Kevorkian) met her mate, Forbes, in Bombay. This is how the letters in Armenian script ended up in the Spencer castle in England. Armenians were often the only Westerners settled in the Far East British colonies.

Edited by phantom22, 30 August 2005 - 03:30 PM.

[Karen]

I respectfully apologyze, but who is this Mr. Ata Donmeh? Turkish provocator?

Honestly, what Indian princess or Iranian poet have to do with Armenian converts? I see no relation.
If you want to speak of some real conversions, check out Hemsil (Hamshen) Armenians of Turkey, who still preserve their language. Check out 17 Armenian villages in Erzurum il, secretly preserving their faith up to this day (of cause, I'm not gonna expose their names here). Check out tonns of ges-ges Armenian villages near Arapkir, Eliazig, Egin, Keban. These are real people living their real lives in facistic Turkey, afraid of speaking up the truth about who the really are. Nevertheless, they build up their web-sites, like http://www.yaylayolu.info , like http://www.geocities...cryptoarmenians , like http://www.efkere.com .

This people are nocking on diaspora's door, hoping to be accepted. They struggle assimilation, facing gigantic assimilation machine, called "turkish state". And they will continue on, regardless the century-old ignorance of diaspora and traditional turkish facism.

[Takoush]

I respectfully apologyze, but who is this Mr. Ata Donmeh? Turkish provocator?

Honestly, what Indian princess or Iranian poet have to do with Armenian converts? I see no relation.
If you want to speak of some real conversions, check out Hemsil (Hamshen) Armenians of Turkey, who still preserve their language. Check out 17 Armenian villages in Erzurum il, secretly preserving their faith up to this day (of cause, I'm not gonna expose their names here). Check out tonns of ges-ges Armenian villages near Arapkir, Eliazig, Egin, Keban. These are real people living their real lives in facistic Turkey, afraid of speaking up the truth about who the really are. Nevertheless, they build up their web-sites, like http://www.yaylayolu.info , like http://www.geocities...cryptoarmenians , like http://www.efkere.com .

This people are nocking on diaspora's door, hoping to be accepted. They struggle assimilation, facing gigantic assimilation machine, called "turkish state". And they will continue on, regardless the century-old ignorance of diaspora and traditional turkish facism.

Wow Karen: I looked at your first suggested site and I found a lot of Turkish Armenians feeling for our Armenian Genocidal rights. They seem to be totally on our side. They really seem to be well rooted Armenians maybe more than some of the Armenian people I know in the Diaspora. They have a complete site about April 24. One Armenian chap born in 1907 Erzeroum depicting the massacres exactly how it happened, then he flew to Armenia in 1922 after he got married. It's really heartwrenching. I don't know Turkish at all. I never wanted to learn their blood wrenched language; but I wish now there was someone beside me to translate to me some of the things these Armenians or part Armenians are saying. They seem to feel quite Armenian though.

I don't know what to say, except I was dumbfounded. They seem to be locked in fascist Turkey unable to get out. It's a pity.

[Takoush]

Karen:

The only solution for these people are the heads of our organizations in the diaspora. Be it in the Americas, in Europe or even in the Middle East. They should look into these Armenians or 'ges ges' Armenians, who mind you they seem to feel quite Armenian. Anyway, our Armenian Organizations should look into this and see how they can free these people to get out of there.

[Arpa]

I respectfully apologyze, but who is this Mr. Ata Donmeh? Turkish provocator?

Honestly, what Indian princess or Iranian poet have to do with Armenian converts? I see no relation.


===
This people are nocking on diaspora's door, hoping to be accepted. They struggle assimilation, facing gigantic assimilation machine, called "turkish state". And they will continue on, regardless the century-old ignorance of diaspora and traditional turkish facism.

Bravo/Brava Karen.

I t is beyond me how some of us will be sucked into such a blatant trap set by an obvious Turk whose only aim is to solicit and elicit off color comments, and in doing so to hijack the debate and deflect our attention. It is obvious that the originator of this thread is a Turk, openly and brazenly using a Turkish nickname and reinforcing it by declaring his connection to ATA (American Turkish Association, the nemesis of the Armenian Assembly and ANCA).
It is also beyond me how the debate precipitates to Gregory Peck and his ilk.
Phanton, aka Khoja, aka, Hagarag, aka AmericaHye, will you please SHUT UP and stop this charade. We have spoken about this before(just conduct a search on this forum and see how many times this subject has been brought up, beside Mamikonians being Chinese/Mongolian, the Bakratunis being Jewish , a nonsense that I have not yet figured out how it relates to our destiny), Gregory Peck has not only not acknowledged his armenianness, he has, on many occasions denied any connection. An Armenian is he/she who professes to be one.

This also brings to mind the recent debate we had with two self styled Armenian “missionaries” who have been preaching Christianity to us, and who have kept silent when invited to take their pulpit to Turkey, Iran and other hostile territories.
Karen, you rightly invite us to see how our not so lost kin are pleading to us to come to their aid and liberate them from a culture that they were forced to adopt.
Besides the sites you list above, here’s another one initiated and maintained by a few intrepid and brave Armenians in Turkey, who are waging a fateful battle against all odds and very hostile adversaries. I have not visited the site lately, it is mainly in Turkish, but one can tell how frustrated the detractors are as all they use is swear words with no plausible argument, by invoking one‘s mothers and sisters in the most graphic language.


I have deliberately corrupted the URL but it can be found using some of the keywords.

[url=http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36933/index]http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36933/index.