Armenian culture vs. "odar"

I find that we frequently present some cultural expressions as being Armenian. But frequently, in my view at least, they have nothing to do with Armenian culture.

But, then, one can ask what is Armenian culture, and how can one separate from others?

How?

Great way to start this sub-forum.

I know alot of the things I consider Armenian, are far from pure. But as you say, what is "pure Armenian"? Diasporan communities are obviously influenced by the surroundings, and Armenia has the lasting influence of the Soviet-era (even the Armenian Channel in Glendale shows russian language shows--which annoys the hell out of me).

On an individual level, I would hypothesize that each one of us defines what it is to be Armenian based on our grandparents (or maybe great-grandparents). On a global level, I do not think your questions can be answered.

I also think that, globally speaking, there may not be a clear-cut definition of it. But I disagree with the criterion you use on a local level. I have to run, now, but will come back to it later tonight (hopefully).

One reason as to why it is extremely hard to define Armenian culture is because it has had so many outside influences. Depending on the countries in which they lived, Armenians have incorporated influences of the respective countries in their own Armenian-ness. That is why there are so many various types of Armenians and the culture itself is very vast.

Mike, I do disagree with the adequateness of taking our grandparents’ perceptions of Armenian culture as a criterion. In my view, their generation, or more exactly their parents’ generation didn’t have much clue on what is Armenian, and has been at the at the verge of total assimilation. In some subtle and tragic way, I think the Genocide has saved the Armenian culture through a “shock therapy.”

My point is that both Western and Eastern Armenians, except Iranian and Georgian Armenians, have been on a steady course of total assimilation with the Turks. In the second half of the 19th century, basically, nothing has been left of Armenian culture.

Outside Tiflis and Istanbul, which have been the two cradle of Armenian culture, the only “device” separating Armenians from the Turks has been the religion. Note that I am using the term “separating.”

But even the Church has recognized that it is losing its religious flock. That’s why it has actively participated in an unprecedented manner in the European political stage (San Stefano and Berlin), pushing for a cultural autonomy of Armenian minority of the Ottoman Empire, as well as for the Eastern Armenians under the Russian dominance (one of the grand-grand parents’ of my wife, a renowned bishop, has lobbied successfully in the Russian palace for the restoration of the right of teaching in Armenian in Armenian schools of Eastern Armenia).

The crystallization, or I would go as far as to claim the reinvention of the Armenian culture has primarily taken place in the Soviet era.

I think it is incorrect to take the taste and perception of grandparents as a guidance for the definition of what is Armenian culture, since they have primarily sold the Turkish culture with an Armenian label. Despite how much you resent the Russian shows on Armenian TV (I resent them too, and have never liked), it is fair to present them as Russian shows. At least it is not misleading. It would be wrong however to present them Armenian, even after translating them into Armenian.

The music in Soviet Armenia has been very unique and very different form the Russian. Basically Komitas, and the ubsequent “gusans-ashoghs” have resurrected the spirit of Sayat-Nova in Armenian music. Note, that Komitas himself has not spoken Armenian, when he has been brought to Echmiadzin, and has attracted attention as an outstanding kid, with an extrodinary performace ability of Turkish songs. Our music is very dramatically different from the Russian, and other Caucasian, Turkish and Iranian music. That heritage is what the Soviet Armenian nomenclature has continued to sponsor, and has vigorously enforced.

The architecture of Armenia is extremely unique, and has no elements of resemblance of the Russian architecture.

Armenian poetry has more common features with the French poetry than with the Russian. It is extremely Armenian in its spirit, however.

Armenian dance has nothing in common with the Russian, and there are only very slight resemblances with other Caucasian dance, but with significant differences.

Armenian theater is absolutely different from the Russian theater. It has practically no influence. The same with opera. True, the Ballet is Russian, but we have never had Ballet otherwise. And it has never reached the level of world standards, though has created few extremely talented male dancers with world recognition.

Armenian art has been most Armenian, very autonomous and unique. The modern Armenian Art has been primarily influenced by Arshil Gorky. It is as huge distance away from the Russian art.

The Armenian science has been a complete product of Russian influence, though. But this is something we can take pride in.

So, the summary of my long statement is that the Armenian culture in its pure and crystallized capacity has been reinvented in Soviet Armenia.

In my younger years, I have been in total denial of this fact. With the age, I have come to an understanding that the Sovietization of Armenia has saved the Armenian culture. But I am sure that if the first Republic of Armenia had survived, that process would’ve been faster and deeper.

But at the end of the day, I would agree with you that the definition of Armenian culture would depend on one’s standards, and if one wants, he/she can disqualify any criterion.


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 24, 2001).]

Your discussion about the Soviet influence, or non-influence, is facinating. My view of the former USSR is completely from an American Cold War perspective. I know nothing with respect to an insider's view, particularly as it pertains to Armenia. My assumption has been that all aspects of Armenian life were dominated by the "bad" Russians.

Overall, I cannot disagree with your discussion, however I think it all relates to a global view. As you state at the end, people are going to have their own standards. This is where I think the grandparents (or some other elders) enter into the equation. I'm not saying this is the right way, but I'm guessing this is where most Armenians get their own personal definitions. It would be interesting to survey people on this. I can see people willing to say their parents were not Armenian enough, but I wonder who would say their grandparents were not Armenian enough. I believe that in general, we absolutely worship our grandparents/elders. Not just respect, but worship and try to emulate.

The turkish influence without a doubt is there. My great-grandparents were very influenced by turkish culture (I have some of their record collections as proof ). The only thing I'd point out is that some things that are called "turkish" are not necessarily such. This is where things get fuzzy. What exactly is "Western Armenian"? Is it just a euphamism for turkish-Armenian? Or is it truly its own culture? Without a doubt it is different from the Armenian culture you describe above, but it is not clear that this makes it some sort of odar culture. If 50 Armenians play the oud, and 50 play the duduk, which is really the Armenian instrument?

My grandparents were only turkish-influenced to the extent it came through their parents. My grandfather spent approximately the first 7 years of his life in New York/New Jersey, the next 7 or so in Beirut including much European travel prior to age 20. My grandmother has only traveled as far as Canada & Mexico.

In my mind, my great-grandparents were absolutely Armenian, my grandparents were as Armenian as possible in America. Although they were born here, both my grandparents could speak, read and write Armenian. Both spent most of their lives in Armenian organizations (ADL, AGBU, Knights of Vartan, etc.)

Somewhere amongst these six relatives arises my view of what it means to be Armenian.

All this makes it clear that it is a "to each his own" question. That certainly would solve the divisiveness that persists amongst Armenians. Each region in the US is different, yet all are American, why must there be a strict definition for Armenians? My view is that the only condition is that someone consider themselves Armenian--beyond that there is no criteria. There cannot be; it totally becomes a subjective issue.


[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited January 25, 2001).]

Mike, I have not tried to define who is Armenian, and have no intentions to do so. I have only spoken on the subject of the culture, serving the culture of the dominating nation, and presenting that culture as Armenian.

P.S. If you recall, I have had more question regarding the generation of the parents of our grandparents, rather then their generation. I also want to add that, in my view, the issue is not what instrument and how many Armenians play it. The issue is what music do they play on these instruments. Clearly, violin is not an Armenian instrument, but some jewels of Armenian music are played on it.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 25, 2001).]

The questions of "What is Armenian?" and "Who is Armenian?" are so closely linked. Especially for diasporans. I'm not sure I can adequately separate the two.

Back to the idea of "pure and crystallized capacity": If you go back far enough cannot all aspects of a country's culture be traced to an outside source? Isn't it all a matter of timeframes? Art always borrows. Exceptions are when a true genius "re-invents the wheel", so to speak.



Hooray! I have had Armenians dismiss the oud as a "turkish instrument". But does that matter if I am playing "Kele, Kele" on it? No. Now, "Tini Mini Hanim" on the other hand is a different story, unless of course it was actually written by an Armenian, then the issue becomes cloudy (btw, it wasn't). Often Armenian Oudis will place such turkish songs, but not sing the lyrics.

In addition, if for generations, Armenians keep playing ouds in their own distinct American Kef Time sort of way, then it becomes an Armenian-American artform..



[This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited January 25, 2001).]

If you read all the travellers accounts of Turkey during the 19th century you can see that they notice very clear differences between Armenians and Turks / Kurds. Also, during the second half of the 19th century a great many churches were built in both "Turkish" and "Russian" Armenia. There has been a tendancy to dismiss all such structures as unimportant, but many are very original or show a survival of older traditions. And you only have to look at the buildings of Yerevan / Alexandropol / Kars put up around the end of the 19th century and start of the 20th century to realise how much thought was going on in the heads of their creators about how Armenian culture should be responded to in a modern age. I have just bought a book about the painter Martiros Saryan, it has old (pre-1915) pictures of Saroyan sitting beside medieval khatchkars, and the tomb of King Ashot at Horomos.

Steve

No arguments, Steve. But that is about the elite of the nation. When I speak of assimilation and lose of identity, I mean the ordinary people.

Mike, they probably are closely related, but as we know, Armenians may advocate non-Armenian culture, and non-Armenians may advocate Armenian culture. And I agree that if you go back far enough, a lot of "national" things may trace their origin in other cultures. There are a lot of such examples in Armenian history. But at least, at each given time, while recognizing the complex dynamics, statically speaking, we could try to separate things, and put'em in perspective. BTW, I would also add one more question to the two you have posed: "Why is Armenian?"

I have to also admit, that I have not heard arguments about oud being a Turkish instrument. To the contrary, I have seen it being described as a genuine Armenian instrument in non-Armenian Encyclopedias.

Also, I have no problems with playing "Tini Mini Hanim" on oud, if it is not presented as Armenian music. However, being present in some American-Armenian "kefs," I have to say that I do have problems with them presenting a lot of things that they play as Armenian music.

Also, changing the lyrics to Armenian doesn't make the Turkish music Armenian, I think. I personally don't care about the lyrics in music, and the music I cherish most has no lyrics. I would prefer Armenian music with Turkish lyrics, to a Turkish music with Armenian lyrics.

MJ, there is a lot more Russian influence in Armenian culture than you attribute. Most of the political thinking since 1800 has been influenced by Russian political thought process. One of the pioneers of Modern Armenian political thought, Mickael Nalbandian, was a Decabrist himself. All three traditional political parties have distinctly Russian influence, and even their names are Russian translations. Our elites had and still do have Russian education and the artistic work they have created was mainly influenced by the language they knew most. You might know it yourself, there are not that many Armenian translations to a lot of literary and scientific works, so we, Soviet Armenians, used their Russian equivalents. Russia basically was our window to Europe and European culture, and associating ourselves with Russia distanced us from backward Middle-East. Armenian culture is not as unique as we think it is. It’s very similar to Caucasian culture, which is also heavily influenced by Russian.

Alpha,

But how does the political thinking have anything to do with the culture? As to Nalbandyan, yes, he was the first well-known Social-Democrat in Armenian reality, but he has not have much influence on the culture, and anything worth reading he has written has been just one verse – “Freedom.”

I am not sure if I follow your arguments about artistic work influenced by the Russian language. As to the science, I have admitted that it is a fully resulted from the Russian science. But it is separate from the culture, too. As to the literature, I do disagree that it is influenced by the Russian literature. In fact, I would claim it is not. And I would also claim that other than some philosophical tractates of incredible value (like Plato, Aristotle, Rabinadrad Tagor, etc.), we have not relied on Russian non-scientific literature. The translations of the European and American classics have been done directly from their originals. And this kind of heritage has been quite reach in Armenia.

I also disagree that Russia has been our Window to Europe, because there has been an “iron curtain” on that window. Our window to Europe and West has been our Diaspora. While again, I recognize you comments regarding the Armenian science, I disagree with them regarding the culture. I think that Armenian literature, music, architecture, etc. are very different from those of other Caucasian nations.

But I definitely am not in denial of the huge Russian influence, which has been of very positive character, over all. But not in the sphere of culture.

Actually, the political influence of Russia of the three Armenian political parties is also evident, but they have been shaped on the basis of the Masonic thought, and not the Russian political thought. But of coarse they have all maintained close relations with the Russian political and intelligence services. But, again, this has not reflected on the culture.

And believe me, I don’t have problems with the Russian culture, but admire it.

You know ? It's so funny how "odar"s see, us Armenians. Some see us as Arabs and some see us as Russians. Some think we're Persian people and others think we're some kind of a Turkic people. And some just don't know what we are. No one, even us, knows what we are. When we think Russian, we have an image, when we think French, we have an image, but when we think Armenian, well, we have to many images. The thing is that we have a lot of outside influence but the beauty of it is that we have always modified it and added the Armenian zest. The Armenian Folk songs of Western Armenia are not Turkish but they are Turkish-Armenian.

Look at the Iranians who are often mistaken by ignorants as Arabs because of Islam and arabic script. I also think Georgians and Greeks also have this problem. Geaorgian sounds like Persian but they are very close to Russia, it's influence. Greece is considered Euopean but it's culture is very close to the middle-east.

For me, the pure Armenian culture is the one in 600 BC when all the tribes of the Armenian plateau were united and all spoke the same language, Armenian. That's what was Armenia with the only big influence being Persians which were already close.

But if you want to see a real 100% Armenian culture to better define our identity you have to unite Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian, let the Armenian dialects influence eachother, let the people influence eachother, let the arts of both sides mix because the result of this union will highlight the Armenian "zest" and become Armenian culture, mentalitym litteraturem language. Every people is influenced by others but the problem of Armenians is more complex because of both kind of Armenians.

The only way this will ever happen is if Armenians, most Armenians just go back to Armenia before it's to late, I don't want to imagine Armenians like Jews who assimilated to their adoptive countries and everything they have left is a religion linked to their cultre which they understand more or less. What we need is a revival of the Armenian identity with little things, changing names like KASPAROV to KASPARYAN, names like ATALLAH to ASSDVADZADOURYAN, trying to find a damn word for these POTATOES and remembering the songs sang by Sayat Nova and the oldies like Dle Yaman.

One day I'll be in Armenia raising my kids and happily married to an Armenian woman and I will teach them who they are and what it is to be an Armenian, it's ethnicity, religion and music but it's also a SPIRIT, a way of life, something natural, different. We are not Europeans because we are Christian, we are not necessairily middle-eatsern because of our big noses and we are not bastards because we have most of the time been the invaded. We are who we are today and we have to unite once and for all, Cilcia, Istanbul, Iran, Bourj Hammoud, Haleb, Moscow should not be our homes anymore, the 2nd Republic of Armenia should, it's calling for us. But not everyone is ready to make the risk of their lives, I understand, the Californian life and the American comfort is too good. Let's pray for our homeland and hope that a few Armenians from outside will do something to make Armenia ready to welcome us ishallah... euh... I mean... Assddzo gamkuh ella or Assttzo gankuh lini!

iyi günler.. euh.. good day.. euh.. Tssdessutyun..

MJ, most of the Armenian Diaspora has been concentrated in Middle East, so it couldn’t have been the window to West. Going back to 1828, when Yerevan and Naxichevan Khanates became part of Russian Empire, Eastern Armenia looked at West through Russia. The culture of Armenians raised under Russian influence is significantly different than Diasporans, who have mostly Middle Eastern traditions. The differences are apparent even on simple family structures.

Regarding Russian translations, I can tell you that there is a great shortage of modern literary works in Armenian. My really close friend used to be the head of new book acquisitions in the Library of Academia of the Republic of Armenia, and I can tell you with full knowledge that very small percentage of literature received by Academia was in Armenian. Most of it was either in Russian or English. The shortage of literature in Armenian was one of the reasons that Armenian intelligentsia communicated mostly in Russian, because they got Russian education.

I brought up Nalbandian, because he is a great mind, and first true Armenian Socialist. He shaped the leftist orientation of most Armenian political parties. Political thinking is a mirror of nations orientation and views. Western oriented cultures have the tendency to adopt western political structures. After all politics and economics determine the lifestyle of people. Culture is a direct product of lifestyle of people. So there is a definite connection between the culture and political thinking of nation.

Alpha,

Even the Armenian Diaspora of the Middle East has served as Window to Europe for us, because they have had free access to it, and we have not. I presume we are talking about the post Soviet period.

I don’t think that in 1828 Eastern Armenia had been looking to West through Russia. There was no passport regime at that time, and about 75 years earlier, starting from Israel Ori, and other delegations, Armenians had already started to look to West. Additionally, Armenian typographies and cultural institutions had been established throughout Europe, and the “Mkhitarian Miabanutiun” was already quite instrumental off of the island of St. Lazarus.

I am not trying to say that Armenia has not had Russian orientation. Of coarse it has had. Even the Western Armenia of pre-World War I has had such orientation, subsequently paying a very high price for it. But I am saying that Armenia has had enough cultural autonomy to reinvent its cultural landscape in the Soviet era, and it has not been much influenced by the Russian culture – let it be music, art, architecture, literature, etc.

Of coarse there has been a significant shortage of scientific and professional literature in Armenia. The primary chunk of the literature has been in Russian, and then in English. And I think it is normal. From the economical point of view, the opposite was not justified. But I have accepted it as it pertains to the scientific and professional literature. But not the fiction literature, or poetry, etc. That has been a direct access. Start from Shakespeare and go
all the way to Thomas Mann. One may perhaps say it starts from the Bible, and goes on. If anything, Armenia has always had its own, and overwhelmingly autonomous “translational” culture. It has not gone through Russia. That tradition has existed for 1600 years, now.

As to the Socialism, and Nalbandyan, I think we have to recognize that Socialism has been the dominant European idea in the second half of the 19th, and the first half of the 20th century. The participation of all Armenian Political parties on the Masonic stage is another evidence that Armenians have searched for solutions in the European arena. It is just the efforts have failed, with the failure of the flirting with ANTANTA, and the failure of the Wilsonian program. Russian alternative has been the only one, which has become implementable – voluntarily or not.

But again, there is no way for me to deny the impact of Russian political and scientific thought in Armenia.

All I am saying is that the Soviet Armenian culture is not a by-product of the Russian or Soviet culture, it has been autonomous, and it has fed itself from the true national sources – Mashtots, Khorenatsi, Narekatsi, Sayat Nova, Komitas, etc.

The lifestyle in Armenia has also been dramatically different from that in Russia. Trust me. I have lived in both places. Armenia basically has been one of the few capitalistic and entrepreneurial countries inside USSR, and it has been very significantly reflected in the modern art and modern music. At the same time Armenians artist were painting and marketing abstract art, and playing rock and roll, Russian students were being expelled from Universities just for listening to that music, not talking about art. When Konstantin Orbelian was founding his Big Band, inside Russia the saxophone was being qualified as an instrument of “burzhuazia.” Consider the compositions of Robert Amirkhanyan, Martin Vartazaryan, the performances of Elvira Makaryan, Datevik Hovhannesyan, and show how do they relate to the Russian pop or jazz music. There is a dramatic difference even between these non-folk genres of Russian and Armenian music.

In the area of academic disciplines, including academic art and music, yes, there is some influence. But the academic art and music rarely have national flavor.

Raffi Y I really liked your post because what you said about odars not really having a picture in their minds about what we are, well, to me that is very true , but about US not having that clear picture really stands out to me.

I mean, there have been dozens of long threads just on this forum about who we are most closely related to, where our origins started, etc, and also trying to analyse this.

I will read it again later,