81 replies to this topic

[Sasun]

no it doesnt contradict what i said, people are free, everyone has free will, yo are free to do whatever you want, that doesnt mean whatever you do is beneficial or good.

I know that people have free will, I am not asking you that. My question is, do people have the right to practice whatever religion they like? Is that (morally) right to have a religion other than Christianity? You said something about treason to 1.5 million people and things like that. Excuse me, but that's quite unreasonable to accuse people of treason which has no connection at all. This is another thing that falls in the category of dogma, you have a certain belief - fine, have whatever belief you wish, but be kind and don't accuse people of treason where there is none. 6 million Jewish people died because of being Jewish, so does that mean now we have to practice Judaism in order not to be traitors? I don't think so. Each man picks his religion.

because He is the Light and in Him there is no darkness. Love is extreme because in it there is no selfishness.

Let it be your way of defining, however, I fail to see how you connect unselfish love with intolerance.

i didnt say i'm intolerant, you are accusing me of that. As you said Jesus demonstrated full acceptance and we should follow Him.

I am not accusing you. You actually said "intolerant: i agree they need our prayers". So I am wondering what you were agreeing then.

But you can't expect me to stand and watch others get deceived by lies. I am free to speak arent I?

You are free to speak, but the problem is that you are seeing deception and lies in other religion's teachings. Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like if something does not correspond to your beliefs you call it deception. That does not sound right. A while back Christianity was new in Armenia, with the same attitude one could conclude that Apostles and Christian preachers were also deceiving.
So can you tell me what are the lies and deceptions you are talking about?

well, that depends on what you understand by "Christian" and what is your understanding of "hell" and "faith" and "life" and "sin" and "salvation" and "eternal life" and many other things
do you know love?

That's a matter of personal belief, freedom of religion allows one to have any belief, and one cannot conclude any deception or lie from whatever other religious folks would preach just from the content of the preaching.

anyone basing their life on dogmas is following death as the Apostle Paul said the letter kills but faith gives life.

Do you think you have no dogmas?

Edited by Sasun, 16 August 2005 - 12:02 PM.

[Ludwig9]

do you think that is the only reason for which they died for ?
i agree completely, so what are you going to do about it?

Only reason, no, main reason, yes. Again, I was making a general point.

In short, I attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, I help serve on the Alter, I share the Gospel, and I pray for people. I also am an amateur apologist, I have written articles in other forums where the Armenian Church has been attacked, in a theological, historical and doctrinal context. When I was younger, I was a Sunday school teacher, a camp counselor, and a youth group board member.

How about you?

[Zartonk]

Look, no Armenian is or can be forced into believing anything.

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.
Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

[Sasun]

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

Such words are bound to create animosity and separation. These people need not ask anyone what religion to pick, it is their choice, not the choice of the country. So if you are for unity of the nation such attitude is actually countreproductive to unity.

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

Now that there is an Armenian statehood it maybe time for the Armenian church to be a spiritual guide for Armenians rather than a governing/social institution - something unnecessary for the church in Armenia.

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

What are you suggesting here? To not allow religious minorities to have liberty?

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.
Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

The same could be said about Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious paths. They are not perfect as human institutions, and have significance for their followers. So let them be .

[Ludwig9]

Look, no Armenian is or can be forced into believing anything.

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.
Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

Who is forcing Armenians to believe in anything?

The greatest purpose of the Armenian Church is to fulfill what Christ commanded her to do; it seems that you have a misunderstanding of the mission of the Armenian Church. The Armenian Church, established and conserved, history, music, literature and created the alphabet. The Christianity in infused in almost every aspect of Armenian Culture. Unfortunately, there are individuals who try to create nonsensical and arbitrary reasons that an Armenian society can exist as being Armenian without the Church. What happens most of the time when Armenians assimilate into other religions is they basically cease to exist, look at the Hamshem’s and the Armenian community that was in Poland. Again, people regardless of being Armenian or not will choose whatever they want to believe. Additionally, the Armenian Church in Doctrinal and Theological grounds is perfect.

[ED]

Look, no Armenian is or can be forced into believing anything.

But when an alien religion (whatever it may be) comes along that creates such division and blind, idiotic dogmatism among families and the community and succeedes in seperating the people, it should be fought against for the sake of union.

The greatest porpuse of Armenia's NATIONAL Apostolic church throughout her existence has been the preservation (and sometimes even protection) of an Armenian identity. At some points in history, the Church subsituted Armenia when Armenia herself was under a yoke .

So I think this is beyond individual rights, religous liberty and democracy of a country. It is about what is really sacred for a people: they're culture and their very survival.

The Armenian church is a human institution: It isn't perfect.
Don't agree with her Doctrine, but do realize the Church's significane.

I would say as important as the church is/was true out our history equally if not greater is the National identity, which we can identify our selfs with besides the church. I don’t think just faith, (Christianity) alone, can be identified with Armenian, you can be a Satanist for all I care but be a devoted Armenian and serve the causes the nation calls for, another words I wouldn’t mind shaking the hand of the devil if in fact it can bring prosperity to my people.


PS. Satanism was an extreme example which I used to make my point. amen

Edited by Edward, 16 August 2005 - 06:28 PM.

[Djrak]

much like Jesus Christ would dine with Pharisees and teach and advice them in a humble and friendly manner.

don't you think Christ was friendly because He loved them and NOT what they did?
the Pharisees were not from a different religion and He wasnt always friendly with them because they were hypocrites who were supposed to know the truth but have twisted it to meet their own interest and use it against God. Everything Christ did had a PURPOSE behind it.

"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." - Matthew 12:34

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." - 1 John 3:10


If you think Christ was friendly to sinners and idolators because He was cool with everything they did then you are deceived. He loved them so that they would see the truth and turn to the only true God.

[Djrak]

I know that people have free will, I am not asking you that. My question is, do people have the right to practice whatever religion they like? Is that (morally) right to have a religion other than Christianity?

do they have the right? I am not the Judge
Morally? it is interresting that you used that word, that means YOU think it may not be moral, why? I never said anything about morals.

You said something about treason to 1.5 million people and things like that. Excuse me, but that's quite unreasonable to accuse people of treason which has no connection at all.

i never said anything about treason to the martyrs. i said how can you not see the faith manifested thru them and turn away? In that sense it is treason, but not in the sense that you are born Armenian and you have a duty or obligation.

This is another thing that falls in the category of dogma, you have a certain belief - fine, have whatever belief you wish, but be kind and don't accuse people of treason where there is none.

denial

6 million Jewish people died because of being Jewish, so does that mean now we have to practice Judaism in order not to be traitors? I don't think so. Each man picks his religion.

they werent killed for their faith.

Let it be your way of defining, however, I fail to see how you connect unselfish love with intolerance.

i wasnt, you asked me how is God extreme, and this was my answer to you, it had nothing to do with intolerence.

I am not accusing you.

yes you are

You actually said "intolerant: i agree they need our prayers". So I am wondering what you were agreeing then.

i agree that peole can be intolerent and that they need our prayers to become more accepting of people no matter who they are and what they've done or believe NOT accepting their acts or beliefs.

You are free to speak, but the problem is that you are seeing deception and lies in other religion's teachings.

how is that a problem? I am not forcing anything on anyone, people are free.

Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like if something does not correspond to your beliefs you call it deception.

no, if something is wrong according to the truth i've known then i call it deception.

That does not sound right.

hmm... then maybe you need to see why i see it as deception to understand where i'm coming from.

CODE

A while back Christianity was new in Armenia, with the same attitude one could conclude that Apostles and Christian preachers were also deceiving.

but the Apostles werent giving intellectual lectures convincing people of theories and principles, they were spreading the truth revealed to them and people who believed did not do it with their own mental effort but thru faith (not blind faith) the truth was revealed to them that is why thousands came to Christ in one day. it is revelation not mental effort, it is trust in God and repentance not national interrest and politics and armenian cause, soul not mind, eternal not temporary, life not death.

CODE

So can you tell me what are the lies and deceptions you are talking about?

that truth exists outside of Christ

CODE

That's a matter of personal belief, freedom of religion allows one to have any belief, and one cannot conclude any deception or lie from whatever other religious folks would preach just from the content of the preaching.

i agree, you are free to beleive anything you want, but when you recognze that you can never get to the truth by your means and put all your hope and trust in God then He'll reveal it to you. and discerning the truth comes later.

CODE

Do you think you have no dogmas?

i do, but faith came first, dogmas just shape it and keep it authentic (the authentic dogmas, not the fake or distorted ones)


Edit: fixed the quotes, board program does not allow more than 10 quotes

Edited by Sasun, 17 August 2005 - 12:15 PM.

[Djrak]

Only reason, no, main reason, yes. Again, I was making a general point.

if that was the main reason then it was in vain, i think the main reason was faith, a lot of people could've converted to Islam and saved themselves and later convert back to Christianity. But a true Christian would never do that.

In short, I attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, I help serve on the Alter, I share the Gospel, and I pray for people. I also am an amateur apologist, I have written articles in other forums where the Armenian Church has been attacked, in a theological, historical and doctrinal context. When I was younger, I was a Sunday school teacher, a camp counselor, and a youth group board member.

How about you?

well i am a follower of Christ before being anything else, i attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, i am a youth group board member and an amateur apologist.
many things in common huh?

[Djrak]

the Armenian Church in Doctrinal and Theological grounds is perfect.

Amen!

[Sasun]

do they have the right? I am not the Judge
Morally? it is interresting that you used that word, that means YOU think it may not be moral, why? I never said anything about morals.

No, I do not think that practicing other religions or any other Christian paths is wrong, morally or legally. I have no complaints about other religions, I don't mind their existence in Armenia or elsewhere. My first response to you was precisely because you were judging other religious groups. You said:
"and they foget the church founded by the Apostles of Christ, and they forget the faith of 1,5 million martyrs not to mention all the others throughout our history, and they rebel against our Church deceived by opportunist western cults. Lord have mercy. "
You are accusing them of rebellion and deception, all on theological grounds. There is nothing factual in what you say, it is all a matter of having a different faith and theology. Imagine if somebody accused you of rebellion and deception because they conclude so from their adopted theology. Now put yourself in the shoes of a Jehovah's witness who thinks he is faithfully practicing his religion and has faith in God just like you do, then imagine somebody is accusing you of deception and rebellion.

i never said anything about treason to the martyrs. i said how can you not see the faith manifested thru them and turn away? In that sense it is treason, but not in the sense that you are born Armenian and you have a duty or obligation.

Faith can be manifested in many ways and many religions. I see no treason really in any sense.

denial

I don't know what you mean.

i agree that peole can be intolerent and that they need our prayers to become more accepting of people no matter who they are and what they've done or believe NOT accepting their acts or beliefs.

Fine, intolerant people need our prayers. But the question here is that some followers of the Armenian Apostolic church are not quite tolerant of religious minorities in Armenia, instead of offering prayers they are offerring harsh criticism and accuse them of things that they have not actually committed. For example, Jehovah's witnesses and other minorities are accused of being foreign agents with a covert agenda against the interests of Armenians.

how is that a problem? I am not forcing anything on anyone, people are free.

It's a problem because it is a cause of sectarian conflicts and separation.

no, if something is wrong according to the truth i've known then i call it deception.

But do you know the truth?

hmm... then maybe you need to see why i see it as deception to understand where i'm coming from.

Oftentimes the same thing is called by different names. Other religions see the truth in Christ but they call it a different name. Before Jesus the person was born truth existed and was exactly the same as it has always been. Therefore, truth can be found not only in the person of Jesus, but in the Christhood that he realized and revealed to the humanity. That same Christhood has been revealed by other prophets in other religions. Therefore, one can approach the truth by practicing paths other than Christianity. The differences are only superficial, in essence all true religions (excluding man made artificial religions) have the same truths. In other words, yes, truth cannot exist outside of Christ but it can exist in and be manifested by other Christ-like individuals. When Jesus was saying he is the only truth he was not speaking as a human being, Jesus the son of a carpenter, but as Christ - something omnipresent and universal not bound just to the body of Jesus.

Edited by Sasun, 17 August 2005 - 12:16 PM.

[Sasun]

don't you think Christ was friendly because He loved them and NOT what they did?

Yes, definitely. Nothing prevents us to do the same as regards to others, in this particular case, you can say look this guy did this bad thing, I do not approve of it, it is evil, etc... but what is happening is religious minorities are not accepted as a normal part of a society, not because they did something wrong as a whole, but because of prejudice and bigotry. If some members of the path did something wrong factually then they can be blamed just like anyone else, but not their particular path of faith. For example, if some Catholic priests did wrong things then they get blamed individually, not the Catholic church as a whole.

If you think Christ was friendly to sinners and idolators because He was cool with everything they did then you are deceived. He loved them so that they would see the truth and turn to the only true God.

I did not say that Christ was cool with everything. He would teach and preach but also forgive those even who killed him. Whatever he did was for the good of the sinner, sometimes kind words will lead to repentance and sometimes criticism. This way of correction depends on the individual, it depends on what the individual said or did, but not what path he belongs to.

Edited by Sasun, 17 August 2005 - 01:21 PM.

[Ludwig9]

No, I do not think that practicing other religions or any other Christian paths is wrong, morally or legally.

Your answers are self defeating, if it is a part of a persons religion (actual teachings) to kill people who don’t accept or convert to a specific religion then that religion is wrong which I am sure you will agree. Additionally, Christ states that He is the Way, not ways, there is only one Path. Again, people will read the bible and give it there own spin on it but if there own spins contradicts the teachings of historical Christianity then technically it cannot be defined as Christian.

I have no complaints about other religions, I don't mind their existence in Armenia or elsewhere. My first response to you was precisely because you were judging other religious groups.

You are accusing them of rebellion and deception, all on theological grounds. There is nothing factual in what you say, it is all a matter of having a different faith and theology. Imagine if somebody accused you of rebellion and deception because they conclude so from their adopted theology. Now put yourself in the shoes of a Jehovah's witness who thinks he is faithfully practicing his religion and has faith in God just like you do, then imagine somebody is accusing you of deception and rebellion.

There is a list of factual reasons of what Djark is saying. Please exercise your tolerance from your religion for other people to express the misconceptions and deviations that is regarding Christ. After all, Christianity is based on Christ, not other religions.

[Sasun]

Your answers are self defeating, if it is a part of a persons religion (actual teachings) to kill people who don’t accept or convert to a specific religion then that religion is wrong which I am sure you will agree.

And what religion would that be? Again, I am talking about bona fide religions, not some obscure groups, please don't imply that I am defending wrong religions. The question here concerns the groups mentioned in the original article, none of which is about killing people.

Additionally, Christ states that He is the Way, not ways, there is only one Path. Again, people will read the bible and give it there own spin on it but if there own spins contradicts the teachings of historical Christianity then technically it cannot be defined as Christian.

So can't I say that you are misinterpreting the Bible and my way of understanding is the original Christianity and not yours?

There is a list of factual reasons of what Djark is saying.

Let me see that list.

Please exercise your tolerance from your religion for other people to express the misconceptions and deviations that is regarding Christ. After all, Christianity is based on Christ, not other religions.

In my opinion your doctrines are far away from the Christ, therefore I don't think you know Christ and can tell what deviation could mean. However, I leave it entirely up to you, it is none of my business what doctrines you have. I tolerate your views and you. It is not me that is intolerant.

[Djrak]

It's a problem because it is a cause of sectarian conflicts and separation.
But do you know the truth?

The truth is in Christ. And being in Christ means having a close personal relationship with Him and following His commandments. The truth is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit just as it is to every Christian, not because of any effort to understand it by my human brain. Outside of Christ there is no truth. It is not a sectarian or denominational thing, It might seem that way because the body of Christ (the Church) has to live together and form a society and institutionalizing and organizing this life is necessary and efficient for its growth. Now if vice exists within it (and it does) then you will see negaive outcome and judge the essence to be false. But that (sectarianism or intolerence) never was the purpose, the purpose was and is and should be the building of His Kingdom.

Oftentimes the same thing is called by different names. Other religions see the truth in Christ but they call it a different name. Before Jesus the person was born truth existed and was exactly the same as it has always been.

do they? (see the truth in Christ)
Before Jesus was born there was no salvation for men.

Therefore, truth can be found not only in the person of Jesus, but in the Christhood that he realized and revealed to the humanity. That same Christhood has been revealed by other prophets in other religions. Therefore, one can approach the truth by practicing paths other than Christianity. The differences are only superficial, in essence all true religions (excluding man made artificial religions) have the same truths. In other words, yes, truth cannot exist outside of Christ but it can exist in and be manifested by other Christ-like individuals. When Jesus was saying he is the only truth he was not speaking as a human being, Jesus the son of a carpenter, but as Christ - something omnipresent and universal not bound just to the body of Jesus.

outside of Jesus Christ (God incarnate, crucified and resurrected) there is no truth and no salvation. This i tell you because I know it deep in my bones not because of what i've been told or taught. He is a living God and He reveals Himself to us.

[Nakharar]

In other words, yes, truth cannot exist outside of Christ but it can exist in and be manifested by other Christ-like individuals. When Jesus was saying he is the only truth he was not speaking as a human being, Jesus the son of a carpenter, but as Christ - something omnipresent and universal not bound just to the body of Jesus.

This doesn't make sense at all. So you say it is the message that is more important than the messenger?

[Djrak]

And what religion would that be? Again, I am talking about bona fide religions, not some obscure groups, please don't imply that I am defending wrong religions. The question here concerns the groups mentioned in the original article, none of which is about killing people.

so if it is not about killing people (physically) it is a bonafide religion?
so if you do not do evil neither good you arent evil?
so if you do not kill physically you couldnt kill spiritually?
which is more important body or spirit?
which is eternal body or spirit?

So can't I say that you are misinterpreting the Bible and my way of understanding is the original Christianity and not yours?

you can say it and many do say it, but to find that rest is the only reassurance you can have (it is like finding a gold mine)

Let me see that list.

what is it exactly that we are talking about? List of what?

In my opinion your doctrines are far away from the Christ, therefore I don't think you know Christ and can tell what deviation could mean. However, I leave it entirely up to you, it is none of my business what doctrines you have. I tolerate your views and you. It is not me that is intolerant.

but your opinion is not necessarily the truth, is it? Neither is mine, unless my opinion is not based on what i "think" but on THE one and only alive and everlasting truth.

[Sasun]

The truth is in Christ. And being in Christ means having a close personal relationship with Him and following His commandments. The truth is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit just as it is to every Christian, not because of any effort to understand it by my human brain. Outside of Christ there is no truth. It is not a sectarian or denominational thing, It might seem that way because the body of Christ (the Church) has to live together and form a society and institutionalizing and organizing this life is necessary and efficient for its growth. Now if vice exists within it (and it does) then you will see negaive outcome and judge the essence to be false. But that (sectarianism or intolerence) never was the purpose, the purpose was and is and should be the building of His Kingdom.
do they? (see the truth in Christ)
Before Jesus was born there was no salvation for men.

I really don't want to get into theological debates, I am perfectly fine with what you believe in, it is up to you. I can't say that I disagree entirely, but I disagree with you on several fundamental things.

outside of Jesus Christ (God incarnate, crucified and resurrected) there is no truth and no salvation. This i tell you because I know it deep in my bones not because of what i've been told or taught. He is a living God and He reveals Himself to us.

You say so, and I could use the same words and say you know, there are other prophets that are like Jesus Christ and they manifest the same thing as Jesus Christ did. So basically I disagree, Jesus Christ and his path is a sure way of salvation, but not the only way. Before Jesus Christ there were other paths which still exist and also lead to salvation. I will leave it at that, because obviously you don't believe in that, just do your best to achieve the truth. And just a reminder, it doesn't matter how well you know theologies, how often you go to a church, and how eagerly you practice religious ceremonies. If you fail to practice righeousness, tolerance and forgiveness nothing will bribe God to give you a favor.

[Sasun]

so if it is not about killing people (physically) it is a bonafide religion?
so if you do not do evil neither good you arent evil?
so if you do not kill physically you couldnt kill spiritually?
which is more important body or spirit?
which is eternal body or spirit?

I really don't know what you have in mind, but it doesn't matter. You are judging unspecified religions for not quite specific things, I find it hard to answer in any way. When your time comes you will be asked a question why you were judging, and if you are falsely accusing then it is a clear sin and you will have to have an answer for that.

you can say it and many do say it, but to find that rest is the only reassurance you can have (it is like finding a gold mine)

If by rest you mean inner peace then I agree. I will add that I find inner peace not only in Jesus Christ's path and teachings but also other paths and prophets.

what is it exactly that we are talking about? List of what?

You better ask Ludwig, he said you have a list of wrongdoings or crimes by religious minorities (which you obviously don't have) and I wanted to see that list.

but your opinion is not necessarily the truth, is it? Neither is mine, unless my opinion is not based on what i "think" but on THE one and only alive and everlasting truth.

I don't know the truth, I only know pieces and glimpses of it and I try to form my opinions on the everlasting truth to the best of my ability. It seems that we are in the same boat more or less, however I don't judge your religion, while you judge all religions except for yours.

[Sasun]

This doesn't make sense at all. So you say it is the message that is more important than the messenger?

Not exactly. What I mean is, to put it in simple words for simplicity's sake, Christhood is a state of consciousness that everyone can potentially achieve if following a right spiritual path. It is basically merit based, Jesus Christ had earned it by sacrifice and intense spiritual practice, plus by God's Grace. If you get acquainted with the teachings of other spiritual masters you will realize that indeed there are other Christ-like figures. Not because they claim to be so, but because you just feel it. If you have a feeling that Jesus was divine then you will have the same feeling for other masters, because they have the same essense though differences outwardly. These other masters are like brothers to Jesus, they have all lived, worked and died for the salvation of the humanity, before and after Jesus. Now Jesus Christ's mission was really grand, other masters maybe less known because they had smaller missions, but nevertheless they are also saviors and are essentially the same as Christ. Yet there are also individuals who have achieved the Christ consciousness but have no outward mission like Jesus. But no matter what, the Christ consiousness is unique as is the Holy Trinity, there is just one Father(God), one Son(Christ consciousness) and one Holy Ghost (Amen).

Hope this brief explanation clarifies what I meant.