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The Armenian Church And Human Sexuality


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#41 Anahit

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Eloren @ Nov 8 2005, 11:13 PM)
Quoting books, in my opinion, does not lead us anywhere. Still written by humans, etc..

Religion has nothing to do with books, crosses, churches, holy water etc... Religion is between only you and God. As they say, on "Judgment Day".. You will no have to pass an exam about your knowledge of the Bible, you will not have to expose the collection of Holy objects you have or count the number of times you went to church.. It's just about your faith.

In fact, I could even say that true religion is something personal. And the rest was created by men to control the population with fear and guilt.


BRAVO!!! clap.gif

#42 Anahit

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 12:32 AM

SKHARA,thanks a lot for your post! it was very interesting and useful. i learnt a lot about Hammurabi and the "Code of Hamurabi", after being "seduced" by your post wink.gif i don't specialize in Law, but am very interested in it, and am dying to have a chance to learn as much about it as possible!

#43 Takoush

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 07:43 AM

QUOTE (Eloren @ Nov 9 2005, 12:13 AM)
Quoting books, in my opinion, does not lead us anywhere. Still written by humans, etc..

Religion has nothing to do with books, crosses, churches, holy water etc... Religion is between only you and God. As they say, on "Judgment Day".. You will no have to pass an exam about your knowledge of the Bible, you will not have to expose the collection of Holy objects you have or count the number of times you went to church.. It's just about your faith.

In fact, I could even say that true religion is something personal. And the rest was created by men to control the population with fear and guilt.

Eloren:

Yes I agree with you for not passing an exam on knowing the Bible from A-Z; but it is said that it is beneficial to read a scripture from the Bible, say every day if you can to know God's words, NOT TO COMPETE FOR THE SAKE OF COMPETING. In that you are right. But kakachik77 wanted me or expected me to be more informed, so I looked in the Web more and I also found more written Christian facts about believing in the Bible and that it's not just another plain Book; but God's words were in there and that were written with His inspiration.

On the subject of your saying that crosses and monuments are not and should not to have emphasys upon; again you are right there. The Bible also mentions not to make images of God or Jesus ourselves, some even consider it sin. This is absolutely true.

Where's it's true that you must pray personally with Jesus and God on your own; however religion God says and He wants us to be outspoken about and convey to others and/or non believers. When we have a good experience with God or Jesus, He wants us to share it with others, so that they'll follow in our or the Apostle's footsteps. This is true Eloren. I am only trying to convey to you the message of God and from what I know the truth; trust me that's the only thing I am doing in here. It's not a power struggle for me; because I myself am not a theologian; but from what I know for sure, that's what God wants us to do. Especially when we have good experience or good experiences with Him. He wants us to be leaders such as the Apostles and Jesus' followers and lead other souls to be following God and praising God, so that they'll also be able to walk with Jesus in Heavan and through eternity!

Your Christian friend. smile.gif

Anahid

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 09 November 2005 - 07:55 AM.


#44 Eloren

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 09:38 AM

Maybe you can share your experience, your thoughts.. OK, no problem smile.gif

But in any way we have no right to "impose" our thoughts or faith or anything. Everyone is free to believe in whatever he wants, as long as he has faith and lives in respect of the others. Even a man that believes in Mother Nature or the greek gods doesn't bother me as long as he respects the faith of the other.

God is not a dictator hungry for power and believers that are going to praise him.. No, God gave us a free will and a brain to believe whatever we want. If any religion was THE religion, How could that God let the infidels live? Why are there so many different religions on Earth? Why wait for Judgment day to punish all those non-believers? Is he that sadistic to let those infidels live a life just to let them burn in the flames of eternity? wink.gif

The only important thing is to have faith and respect the others. No matter what religion he has or whatever he believes, we have no right to claim ours as the supreme religion.

That is why we have so much trouble with the so called Islam in this world, they have no respect and even kill those who don't follow their own beliefs.

#45 Takoush

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 01:04 PM

QUOTE (Eloren @ Nov 9 2005, 10:38 AM)
Maybe you can share your experience, your thoughts.. OK, no problem smile.gif

But in any way we have no right to "impose" our thoughts or faith or anything. Everyone is free to believe in whatever he wants, as long as he has faith and lives in respect of the others. Even a man that believes in Mother Nature or the greek gods doesn't bother me as long as he respects the faith of the other.

God is not a dictator hungry for power and believers that are going to praise him.. No, God gave us a free will and a brain to believe whatever we want. If any religion was THE religion, How could that God let the infidels live? Why are there so many different religions on Earth? Why wait for Judgment day to punish all those non-believers? Is he that sadistic to let those infidels live a life just to let them burn in the flames of eternity? wink.gif

The only important thing is to have faith and respect the others. No matter what religion he has or whatever he believes, we have no right to claim ours as the supreme religion.

That is why we have so much trouble with the so called Islam in this world, they have no respect and even kill those who don't follow their own beliefs.

Eloren:

Yes, this is the idealism of America anyway. I don't know if you live in the U.S. but that's what the fabric of this country is made of. They most certainly believe in free religion. And no, you cannot impose your religion on anyone, sure that is the only way. You can discuss it though in a civilized manner and exchange ideas, experiences and thoughts if one wants to; but you cannot impose to anyone.

As a matter of fact, some people are agnostic or even non-believers, well that's their business; but they do exercise respect towards themselves and towards others. One of them is my own uncle. He doesn't believe in it as he is a scientist; but he is one of the kindest, one of the sweetest and a most moral and an ethical persons I know. Besides, he is extremely intelligent and well read and of course, I love him greatly. When I sit down with him; I try not to talk about it, or I just respect him by listening to him, that's all.

On the other hand I have heard many evangelists in the U.S. that are great charlatans and big talkers but they are anything but moral and ethical themselves. Go figure. So yes, other than reading the Bible and being illuminated by it, one must exercise good moral and ethical habits. smile.gif

Edited by Anahid Takouhi, 09 November 2005 - 01:06 PM.


#46 vava

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Eloren @ Nov 9 2005, 10:38 AM)
That is why we have so much trouble with the so called Islam in this world, they have no respect and even kill those who don't follow their own beliefs.


Just a clarification: There are fanatics in every religion - it's not because of Islam (the religion) that there are so many problems in the middle east. It's a result of the fanaticism. Fanatic Christians are arguably just as bad as their Islamic counterparts. I would like to belive that the gross majority of Muslims belleve in similar values as ours - respect for thy neighbour, love etc. etc.

#47 Sasun

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 03:05 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Nov 9 2005, 03:49 PM)
Just a clarification: There are fanatics in every religion - it's not because of Islam (the religion) that there are so many problems in the middle east. It's a result of the fanaticism. Fanatic Christians are arguably just as bad as their Islamic counterparts. I would like to belive that the gross majority of Muslims belleve in similar values as ours - respect for thy neighbour, love etc. etc.

That's right. Fanaticism is a religion of its own.

#48 Eloren

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 10:42 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Nov 10 2005, 12:49 AM)
Just a clarification: There are fanatics in every religion - it's not because of Islam (the religion) that there are so many problems in the middle east. It's a result of the fanaticism. Fanatic Christians are arguably just as bad as their Islamic counterparts. I would like to belive that the gross majority of Muslims belleve in similar values as ours - respect for thy neighbour, love etc. etc.


Of course, i agree with that. There are fanatics in every religion and they are all worth the same.

But, having lived (and still living) in a muslim country for about 20 years now, I realized that their religion is not as open minded and "flexible" as other religions.
Don't get me wrong, I have no hate against muslims, the people who have their faith and respect others. I have many muslim friends. But i admit that i do not like the principles of the religion, which is a lot more based on fear, and mostly restrictions.

#49 Sasun

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 10:44 PM

QUOTE (phantom22 @ Nov 3 2005, 09:29 PM)
Sasun,

Have you ever wondered why homosexuality exists at all. Why would God condemn certain persons to such an existence? What is God's purpose in placing homosexuals and bisexuals on this earth?

Who said that God placed homosexuals on this earth? The Bible does not tell us that God has created gays, it tells us that God has created us in His own image. That implies perfect beings. It is us who have free will that become gays, ignorants, liars, criminals, and all kinds of other wrong things... essentially rebelious beings acting against universal laws. We hurt ourselves by our choices.

#50 Sasun

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:04 PM

QUOTE (Anahit @ Nov 5 2005, 08:33 AM)
tongue.gif biggrin.gif Sasun, u gave me such a big smile!!!! "God's Law" u say????? Maybe u mean Natural Law or the Law of Nature (as u wish), but God, if any, has only COMMANDS!!!! at least that's what they write in THE book smile.gif The Law i wrote, is the law that applies to the societies (each has differnet ones). every member of that society IS equal and must benefit from the law as well as be protected by it!

There is a wide gap between our perceptions of God. All natural and spiritual laws are created by God. One should be aware of the laws in order to be in harmony with the universe and so be happy and have a righteous existence. Let's say, the universe is a building with walls, windows, doors, ceilings, etc... everything in it has a purpose. Let's compare this building with a set of laws. God's commandments are instructions on how to live in the right way in this building and be happy. So we are kindly told, for example, not to go against the wall and smash into it but use the doors instead, or else we might injure ourselves. God has given us freedom to follow or to reject His commandments which we might as well call instructions. Well, you might say you are free to do as you wish, then you go against the wall and break your head. Now who is to blame? And who is to blame that one has knowingly taken a path of wrong actions that according to the Commandments lead to trouble. By Commandments I don't mean just 10 commandments in the Bible but a wider and universal moral codes all over the world. So then you are reminded again and again by all spiritual traditions of the world of right and wrong, good and evil, right way of living and wrong way of living. Some choose to listen and some ignore... but the laws of the building are the same and eqully applicable to all. God does not punish or reward anyone, it is us who punish or reward ourselves by our actions.
QUOTE
sorry, but that is the wrongest thing i have ever read in a very long time! i can't disagree more. thanks to all the people that went against the God's commands and challanged EVERYTHING He... should i write "said??" hm... ok, "said", if u believe in what they write in Bible. If noone ever acted against or was always afraid to question Him, we would have still be stuck without knowledge about our universe, technology, our own-self etc. Thanks to all that heros, who, yes indeed, DID suffer "the consequencies" of telling the truth, opening our eyes, calling things their real names... in short acting against what was never to be questioned! i think i owe lots of what i know and who i am to that very brave men and wemen!
well, the principle of my life:"want to blame someone, blame yourself!" besides, how can u blame someone else when you are the one taking the decisions??? how can anyone be so...should i say naive or stupid to blame God????? i never read THE book or pray, like the believers smile.gif ,when i have any problems, i ALWAYS SOLVE THEM RIGHT AWAY!
AND.... I NEVER DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD TO!!! smile.gif "ALWAYS LOOK FORWARD AND BE DIFFERENT, NEVER DO THINGS LIKE OTHERS HAVE DONE" the secret of my success smile.gif and i think i am gonna add "never do what others have always been told to do" smile.gif

Again there is a gap between our perceptions. Telling the truth, challenging difficulties, heroism, obtaining knowledge and progress are always considered virtues by the world's religious/spritual traditions.... hmm.. except for dark periods of some of the religions. It would be unfair to judge God for the actions of people who have not exactly followed the commandments.

Edited by Sasun, 09 November 2005 - 11:08 PM.


#51 phantom22

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:06 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Nov 9 2005, 10:44 PM)
Who said that God placed homosexuals on this earth? The Bible does not tell us that God has created gays, it tells us that God has created us in His own image. That implies perfect beings. It is us who have free will that become gays, ignorants, liars, criminals, and all kinds of other wrong things... essentially rebelious beings acting against universal laws. We hurt ourselves by our choices.


Gay or bisexual is a state of being. One who has the desire to steal, but does not do so is not considered a criminal. One who has a desire to lie, but does not do so, is not considered a liar. Yet one who has attraction to the same sex is considered a homosexual or bisexual , whatever the case may be, even if they do not act upon that desire. Therefore this trait is the same as any immutable part of a human being, be it ethnicity, height, or coloring. YOU HAVE BLINDERS ON SASUN, YOU ARE BEING BLINDED BY YOUR PREJUDICES.

Edited by phantom22, 09 November 2005 - 11:09 PM.


#52 Eloren

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:10 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Nov 10 2005, 08:44 AM)
[...] The Bible does not tell us that God has created gays, it tells us that God has created us in His own image. That implies perfect beings. [...]


That what is written of course, it is also written that Adam and Eve were the first humans wink.gif . Actually, when we see the prehistoric humans we evolved from (was that Adam and Eve?), hard to say they were "perfect" .. I don't want to admit that God was reaaaaaally "dumb and ugly" like them
huh.gif

I think, Man created God in his own image.. Man needed a human representation of God. We need to represent everything with something known.. That is why we have like such a hard time to represent ourselves the shape of the universe for example wink.gif

#53 Sasun

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE (phantom22 @ Nov 10 2005, 12:06 AM)
Yet one who has attraction to the same sex is considered a homosexual or bisexual , whatever the case may be, even if they do not act upon that desire. Therefore this trait is the same as any immutable part of a human being, be it ethnicity, height, or coloring.

Sexual desires, be it normal or homosexual, are not an immutable part of a human being. One who is a victim to desires is in essence a weakling, and one who has control over desires can indeed claim that he was created in the image of a powerful being.
QUOTE
YOU HAVE BLINDERS ON SASUN, YOU ARE BEING BLINDED BY YOUR PREJUDICES.

Maybe you see it that way, but from my point of view you have been doing yourself a great disservice by considering yourself an immutable bisexual.

#54 Sasun

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:28 PM

QUOTE (Eloren @ Nov 10 2005, 12:10 AM)
That what is written of course, it is also written that Adam and Eve were the first humans wink.gif . Actually, when we see the prehistoric humans we evolved from (was that Adam and Eve?), hard to say they were "perfect" .. I don't want to admit that God was reaaaaaally "dumb and ugly" like them
huh.gif

I think, Man created God in his own image.. Man needed a human representation of God. We need to represent everything with something known.. That is why we have like such a hard time to represent ourselves the shape of the universe for example wink.gif

Literal interpretation of the Bible does not make a solid sense, it is full of contradictions if understood literally. There is however a symbolic interpretation. Bible has a great deal of symbolism, which if understood as such will have a much deeper meaning than a primitive story about a certain being planting two individuals in a garden and subsequently punishing them. In particular, the word "image" in Genesis does not refer to the physical appearance of God, nor Adam and Eve were actual persons but instead represent the male and female qualities of humanity. All other details of the story of Adam and Eve have quite different meanings according to the interpretation that I am talking about. A while ago I posted this interpretation in the forum.

#55 phantom22

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Nov 9 2005, 11:20 PM)
Sexual desires, be it normal or homosexual, are not an immutable part of a human being. One who is a victim to desires is in essence a weakling, and one who has control over desires can indeed claim that he was created in the image of a powerful being.

Maybe you see it that way, but from my point of view you have been doing yourself a great disservice by considering yourself an immutable bisexual.


I KNOW that I am a powerful being, since I have not acted upon those desires. Yet I am sure that I am what I am. I have no doubt about that. The disservice is due to society's unreasonable values, primarily foisted upon us all by the religious communities.

#56 Sasun

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:40 PM

QUOTE (phantom22 @ Nov 10 2005, 12:29 AM)
I KNOW that I am a powerful being, since I have not acted upon those desires. Yet I am sure that I am what I am. I have no doubt about that. The disservice is due to society's unreasonable values, primarily foisted upon us all by the religious communities.

Good for you not to act upon what you seem to be considering wrong smile.gif Yet, not good enough. Desires are thoughts, your own thoughts manufactured by none other than yourself. It seems that you have been producing something undesirable, against your will. Therefore you cannot claim to be a powerful being. I don't mean to disappoint you, but understanding that you are not yet powerful may help you to be truely powerful in the future.

#57 Eloren

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Nov 10 2005, 09:20 AM)
Sexual desires, be it normal or homosexual, are not an immutable part of a human being. One who is a victim to desires is in essence a weakling, and one who has control over desires can indeed claim that he was created in the image of a powerful being.

Maybe you see it that way, but from my point of view you have been doing yourself a great disservice by considering yourself an immutable bisexual.


Why did God, THE perfect Being, gave us sexual desires? Why are some Homos or Bisexuals? How can THE true meaning of GOOD, PERFECTION be such a sadistic one to create perfect beings and spoil them with "dirty" things?

And please, don't blame the devil or anything. It is so easy to blame always the devil. Life is a lot more complex than one good being and one bad being you can always blame.

No, We have our own free will. We decide, and No: God is not Good and the Devil Bad.. God is all and represents everything.

By the way, "Good" and "Bad" is just a creation of men.

#58 Eloren

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Nov 10 2005, 09:40 AM)
Good for you not to act upon what you seem to be considering wrong smile.gif Yet, not good enough. Desires are thoughts, your own thoughts manufactured by none other than yourself. It seems that you have been producing something undesirable, against your will. Therefore you cannot claim to be a powerful being. I don't mean to disappoint you, but understanding that you are not yet powerful may help you to be truely powerful in the future.


Consider Life as a trip offered to you by God. When you go on a trip, do you spend your time having fun, testing everything, enjoying at your maximum? Or do you defend yourself to do this, and that, and a lot of things?

Do you consider yourself as a puppet? Denying your own thoughts to follow a Book written by men?

#59 Caligirl

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 01:11 AM

People, you have way too much time on your hands!! smile.gif

#60 Takoush

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 06:54 AM

QUOTE
name='Sasun' date='Nov 10 2005, 12:04 AM' post='157136'
Again there is a gap between our perceptions. Telling the truth, challenging difficulties, heroism, obtaining knowledge and progress are always considered virtues by the world's religious/spritual traditions.... hmm.. except for dark periods of some of the religions. It would be unfair to judge God for the actions of people who have not exactly followed the commandments.


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Sasun:

You have so much wisdom and you have come up with a great way of explaining to Anahit or whomever God's commandments as well as HIS GOOD RULES for us to follow; not to astray and hurt. I like your intuitive, smart and inspirational explanations and needless to say I totally agree with them. smile.gif


edit, quote fixed

Edited by Edward, 10 November 2005 - 10:51 AM.





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