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#1 moqqa

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:12 PM

Hello,

I am new here and have a question to you folks... People often talk about whether is it OK to marry an Odar or not. My question is directed to the people who has already made that experience and are married with an odar. I would like to know how do you "manage" your marriage? How do you keep your Identity?

From my own experience and what I have observed from friends being in relationship with odars, it is very difficult to stay 'armenian' if you don't have a partner who gives up his identity or doesn't care that much about his culture. And even IF, you still have to explain yourself ever and ever agian.

#1: Problems among you two:
You always have to compromise. You alwas have to explain yourself why do you think the way you think. Why you do have a close relation with your parents. There are A LOT OF things which you do without thinking about, because they are normal to you, but not your husband. To an extent, of cours in a relationship you always have to compromize, you always have to explain... but I have the impression that there is more to explain with an odar. And the worst thing is, he won't understand it right. He will say ok, I got it, but he has got it in his own way. It is like you speak different languages in your mind too, you are programmed to think different.

#2: Problems among your families: which may result in #1
The good thing about odar families is that they dont stick they nose into your business that much as armenian families. BUT it is still difficult to make them understand that you are an ARMENIAN and you like to keep your langauge, culture. And that maybe someday if you have children you would like them to speak your language. Many odars come up with "armenian? why would you need that?!". Here is also the point that no matter how you explain, they won't really understand your point. In the european country where I live, many people are arrogant and to some extent nationalist: thinking of themselves as of being very progressive. Cultures that they don't know are seen as un-progressive. You always have to fight with that ignorance & stupidity!

#3: Problems concerning your friends: which may result in #1
It is very difficult to have common friends. I have many armenian friends and when we meet with them, my BF feels always uncomfortable because we speak a language he doesn't understand. I think the real problem is that he hay txamardkanc xandum e! That's a thing I have observed very often on odar men/women who have armenian partners.


#4: Problems concerning your children: which may result in #1
We don't have children yet, but because of the points above and because I have observed it many times on other friends it seems to me that you always have to explain/argue why you want your children to learn armenian, why you want your children to spend time in Armenia, why you want your children to have armenian friends.

So, what are you experiences and how do you solve your problems? Some may say, simply marry an armenian, but I am sure with the armenian guy I would have problems of other kind...

moqqa

ps: sorry my poor english.

Edited by moqqa, 08 November 2008 - 05:16 PM.


#2 moqqa

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:41 PM

I have to add something to #2:

Parties among your families are very difficult to organise. There is always some cold, because they don't understand your culture. Of course all are friendly but I miss the relaxed and typical armenian joke-making atmosphere. There is some talk about our 'exotic' cuisine and the rest is just blah-blah...

Sometimes I imagine my wedding, how it would be? Most of my relatives are in Armenia so here I can't make an 100% armenian wedding. So I have to make an elegant & boring european wedding ceremony with one or two armenian songs. Nobody except my parents & friends would "understand" the music, dance to the music. Even if you teach how to dance. That doesn't come from the heart. The odars don't feel what you feel while listening to the music! It is like acting. Somehow that makes me sad...

To this long story my question is: have you made similar experiences and how do you solve that kind of problems?

Edited by moqqa, 08 November 2008 - 05:49 PM.


#3 Anonymouse

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 02:05 PM

QUOTE (moqqa @ Nov 8 2008, 06:12 PM)
Hello,

I am new here and have a question to you folks... People often talk about whether is it OK to marry an Odar or not. My question is directed to the people who has already made that experience and are married with an odar. I would like to know how do you "manage" your marriage? How do you keep your Identity?

From my own experience and what I have observed from friends being in relationship with odars, it is very difficult to stay 'armenian' if you don't have a partner who gives up his identity or doesn't care that much about his culture. And even IF, you still have to explain yourself ever and ever agian.

#1: Problems among you two:
You always have to compromise. You alwas have to explain yourself why do you think the way you think. Why you do have a close relation with your parents. There are A LOT OF things which you do without thinking about, because they are normal to you, but not your husband. To an extent, of cours in a relationship you always have to compromize, you always have to explain... but I have the impression that there is more to explain with an odar. And the worst thing is, he won't understand it right. He will say ok, I got it, but he has got it in his own way. It is like you speak different languages in your mind too, you are programmed to think different.


#2: Problems among your families: which may result in #1
The good thing about odar families is that they dont stick they nose into your business that much as armenian families. BUT it is still difficult to make them understand that you are an ARMENIAN and you like to keep your langauge, culture. And that maybe someday if you have children you would like them to speak your language. Many odars come up with "armenian? why would you need that?!". Here is also the point that no matter how you explain, they won't really understand your point. In the european country where I live, many people are arrogant and to some extent nationalist: thinking of themselves as of being very progressive. Cultures that they don't know are seen as un-progressive. You always have to fight with that ignorance & stupidity!

#3: Problems concerning your friends: which may result in #1
It is very difficult to have common friends. I have many armenian friends and when we meet with them, my BF feels always uncomfortable because we speak a language he doesn't understand. I think the real problem is that he hay txamardkanc xandum e! That's a thing I have observed very often on odar men/women who have armenian partners.


#4: Problems concerning your children: which may result in #1
We don't have children yet, but because of the points above and because I have observed it many times on other friends it seems to me that you always have to explain/argue why you want your children to learn armenian, why you want your children to spend time in Armenia, why you want your children to have armenian friends.

So, what are you experiences and how do you solve your problems? Some may say, simply marry an armenian, but I am sure with the armenian guy I would have problems of other kind...

moqqa

ps: sorry my poor english.


Perhaps I'm the odd one out here, but I don't approve of nor would I every fancy myself in an "intercultural" or "interracial" relationship for the simple fact that they are not Armenian. To the romantics and other idealist types who think with emotions, they think this is obtuse and how could anyone do this if they love someone? If so, why should it matter? Isn't "love blind"?

There are many reasons for my choosing to be with an Armenian, racially and culturally similar, as opposed to an otar.

1. I consider maintaining my Armenian roots and genes a higher priority than my potentially prurient interests. I do not agree with the idea that anyone can be Armenian or that Armenian identity is as fungible as play doh. Every time someone has half-breed babies, they create more of a division between that child's Armenianness and non-Armenianness. Essentially, you cannot keep dividing the pie and expecting them to follow the Armenian half.

2. Marriage is not just a union of two individuals. People always tout this as some sort of a wand in the face of critics stating, "Well, if they love each other, why does it matter what the families think?" Unless your life is lived in a complete vacuum and devoid of all family and culture, maybe this is suitable for you. I know that ethnic groups, mostly whites, who have lived in America for generations, have very cold relations with families, very dysfunctional, and often they are very distant from their families. To them, anything beyond what is in the immediate vicinity of their hedonistic ends is incomprehensible. As an Armenian immigrant, born to immigrant parents, this is incomprehensible to me. Marriage is not just a union between two individuals, but also of families. We all, whether consciously or unconsciously, carry the torch of civilization and culture in our hands and influence the generations unborn.

3. Love is a choice. I know this will upset alot of romantics, but love is never about animalistic passions and impulses from without. We have a choice in whom we choose to "fall in love" with. Alot of times people don't understand this. They confuse attraction with love. Attraction is not a choice. You have no control in who you find attractive. It simply is. Hence, when we lust after someone it is due to attraction and not "love". Love, is nothing more and nothing less than "practical politics." You do not love someone because they have washboard abs or they have a curvaceous body. These are attractions. Before we "fall in love", we must make a choice. Even if that choice is so subtle and so nuanced and so small that it eludes most people, we still make that choice. We decide whether we shall choose to allow ourselves to "fall" for this person or not. We choose as to whether we should expose and open up our vulnerabilities to this or that person. At no point do we act like unthinking animals regarding who we choose to love. That which is tied to the heart and mind is always based on thinking and acting. Love is a matter of soul and spirit, it cannot exist without man's cognitive ability to choose and decide that which is good for the heart or bad. Attraction is a reflection of our passions and animality, hence it is not a choice, but instinctual. Most people confuse the two and base their relationships off of attraction and not love and wonder why we have throw-away relationships that never seem to last. Love considers all the faults and flaws of the other individual. Essentially, by choosing to fall for someone, you have presumably done a "cost-benefit analysis" in your heart and mind about this other soul. You have thought to yourself that, despite their woes and flaws, their good outshines the bad and I shall choose to fall. Attraction involves no such thing. It is based on impulse and whim. A split second scent of pheromones, and your a slave to forces from without.

Edited by Anonymouse, 25 November 2008 - 02:08 PM.


#4 moqqa

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 03:49 PM

I have tried to reach the admin and asked him/her to delete my thread, but it seems that I can't send PMs? They don't appear in my "sent messages" folder.

Dear Anonymouse thanks for your reply, but it isn't the answer to my questions. And since for weeks now nobody can answer it, I am again asking to delete this thead if you don't mind.

There are tons of topic in a kind of "why choosing armenian" - my question was: how to get along with a non-armenian.

Edited by moqqa, 25 November 2008 - 03:51 PM.


#5 MosJan

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:36 PM

QUOTE (moqqa @ Nov 25 2008, 01:49 PM)
I have tried to reach the admin and asked him/her to delete my thread, but it seems that I can't send PMs? They don't appear in my "sent messages" folder.

Dear Anonymouse thanks for your reply, but it isn't the answer to my questions. And since for weeks now nobody can answer it, I am again asking to delete this thead if you don't mind.

There are tons of topic in a kind of "why choosing armenian" - my question was: how to get along with a non-armenian.


HI
i don't; have an answer to your how to get along with a non-armenian question, i can't be a good help..


but do have an answer to your request on deleting the topic -
we generally don;t delete topics, but i will make an exception for you wink.gif IF you contribute to our forum apricot.gif 100 prodactive topics i will delete the topic smile.gif

is this fine by you ???

#6 gmd

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 07:39 PM

QUOTE (moqqa @ Nov 8 2008, 05:12 PM)
Hello,

I am new here and have a question to you folks... People often talk about whether is it OK to marry an Odar or not. My question is directed to the people who has already made that experience and are married with an odar. I would like to know how do you "manage" your marriage? How do you keep your Identity?

From my own experience and what I have observed from friends being in relationship with odars, it is very difficult to stay 'armenian' if you don't have a partner who gives up his identity or doesn't care that much about his culture. And even IF, you still have to explain yourself ever and ever agian.

#1: Problems among you two:
You always have to compromise. You alwas have to explain yourself why do you think the way you think. Why you do have a close relation with your parents. There are A LOT OF things which you do without thinking about, because they are normal to you, but not your husband. To an extent, of cours in a relationship you always have to compromize, you always have to explain... but I have the impression that there is more to explain with an odar. And the worst thing is, he won't understand it right. He will say ok, I got it, but he has got it in his own way. It is like you speak different languages in your mind too, you are programmed to think different.

#2: Problems among your families: which may result in #1
The good thing about odar families is that they dont stick they nose into your business that much as armenian families. BUT it is still difficult to make them understand that you are an ARMENIAN and you like to keep your langauge, culture. And that maybe someday if you have children you would like them to speak your language. Many odars come up with "armenian? why would you need that?!". Here is also the point that no matter how you explain, they won't really understand your point. In the european country where I live, many people are arrogant and to some extent nationalist: thinking of themselves as of being very progressive. Cultures that they don't know are seen as un-progressive. You always have to fight with that ignorance & stupidity!

#3: Problems concerning your friends: which may result in #1
It is very difficult to have common friends. I have many armenian friends and when we meet with them, my BF feels always uncomfortable because we speak a language he doesn't understand. I think the real problem is that he hay txamardkanc xandum e! That's a thing I have observed very often on odar men/women who have armenian partners.


#4: Problems concerning your children: which may result in #1
We don't have children yet, but because of the points above and because I have observed it many times on other friends it seems to me that you always have to explain/argue why you want your children to learn armenian, why you want your children to spend time in Armenia, why you want your children to have armenian friends.

So, what are you experiences and how do you solve your problems? Some may say, simply marry an armenian, but I am sure with the armenian guy I would have problems of other kind...

moqqa

ps: sorry my poor english.


I will respond best I can. I have been married 13 years now and we have 3 kids. When I married my wife I did not have many Armenian friends outside of family. My social circle consisted of non-Armenians. Not much has changed since (outside of contacts on forums or work). However, I am not a very social person. My wife tends to be the more social one in our home.

I think you must first decide on what is important to you in life before entering into such a life long commitment. My feelings for my wife and for Armenia are very similar. In both cases I have a deep emotional connection I cannot explain in any rational terms.
If you feel able to maintain a rational disposition even when faced with strong emotions then I recommend you follow Anonymouse's advice.

We have no conflicts with family outside of the normal mother-in-law vs. daughter-in-law attitudes. I treat her family (parents only, no other relatives in our state) the same as I would my family. There are family gatherings in which her parents will join our family, but this is not a weekly event.

My wife has limited knowledge of Armenian. My older two have begun to show an interest in the Armenian language but I do not have the patience/time to teach children so I have asked my wife to work on this and time will tell how succesful this is.

As for friendships I would say we shared a common social group so this was never an issue and has never become one since we are a priority for each other and from the beginning I/we felt it best to place each other first. This applies accross the board on all matters. Each person/couple is unique so there are no guarentees regardless of the cultural background of the couple. Regretably, in my close family in the US we have a succesful marriage compared to other family members who married Armenians without success.

#7 DominO

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 10:50 PM

I oppose it's deletion, it's relevent..., if you don't get answers you just a<have to bring back the question. Deleting just because you have no answers isen't valid.

#8 Anoushik

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE (moqqa @ Nov 25 2008, 01:49 PM)
I have tried to reach the admin and asked him/her to delete my thread, but it seems that I can't send PMs? They don't appear in my "sent messages" folder.

Dear Anonymouse thanks for your reply, but it isn't the answer to my questions. And since for weeks now nobody can answer it, I am again asking to delete this thead if you don't mind.

There are tons of topic in a kind of "why choosing armenian" - my question was: how to get along with a non-armenian.

Dear Moqqa, welcome to Hyeforum! smile.gif

It seems that most everyone here in the forum has had a very busy month and the forum hasn't been much active! Like everything else in life, it's a phase that the forum is going through tongue.gif

Regarding your question about getting along with a non-Armenian. You already know the difficulties in having a relationship with a non-Armenian. In reading your first post my impression of you is that you want to have the relationship with your BF, but want to experience everything with him as if he was a recent Armenian immigrant such as yourself! You even stated that you want to experience the traditional Armenian wedding for yourself. You can't have that with him. So you must think about what is more important to you - your relationship with your BF or your retaining your Armenian culture?

#9 Sip

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 01:37 AM

It really depends on the people involved ... but in the end, it always comes down to the fact that in the end, you'll have some sort of "mixed" culture (which may or may not be a good thing).

I personally have not felt any of these pressures of "maintaining" Armenian identity since I am never going to have kids. I think all this maintenance struggles are only really important if you are going to have kids.

#10 Partevhasak

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:50 AM

Hiya, I've just come across this topic and would like to put forward my personal experiences and opinion, I hope it's not out of context by now:

Having read older topics, I believe that similar questions regarding otars have been already dealt with earlier. However, I always missed one huge point and am astonished that nobody ever brought it up: otar =/= otar. Judging from my wide experience with various countries, peoples and acquaintances, I have to say that it is crucial which foreign NATION we are speaking of. You people seriously don't want to tell me that all the 6 billion non-Armenians in the world are equally just otars, do you?

As for intermarriage in general, this is not a particularly Armenian issue, but one concerning all "endangered" or, say, small communities in the world (I would not speak of the Armenians as endangered in the real sense). I believe it is only natural when a small people emphasizes the importance of intermarriage, this is witnessed in various parts of the world. It is also not necessary to mention that such strategies never work in the long run - you cannot name me a small population in the world who managed to remain pure. Even the "successful" Jews, who are often mentioned, managed to maintain their religion (which in their particular case is absolutely equal to their culture), but obviously not their race, as we all can see. The only other reasons for intermarriage can be of religious origin (Hindus) or open racism and extreme xenophobia as in the case of the Japanese.

Finally, intermarriage actually heavily correlates with the level of education: Multicultural relationships tend to occurr rather more often between well educated academics (or artists) than between the common simple people, the reason being that educated people usually possess a much more universal perception of the world and are usually more willing to mutually accept the other culture as a part of their own. Furthermore, due to their usuallsy higher IQ, they are also able to learn languages more easily, identify common structures in different cultures, etc. You might think Dolma is so Armenian while in reality, it is probably anything from Greek to Persian. You might think the Armenian music is very unique, while in reality, it is a mix of various influences, reaching from French chanson (e.g. Haxverdyan, Movsisyan) to more traditional music played with originally Iranian instruments such as Tar, Dohol, Kamancha, etc. (You see, right now, many readers will think what? How dare you! Those are purely Armenian musical instruments! Traitor! Blabla - while educated people who have studied the subject know that most "Armenian" instruments are of foreign origin"). Accordingly, it is very clear that some of the otars will appreciate Dolma, Armenian folk music, etc. more than others, for it is also part of their culture. But then again, you need to have an interest in foreign cultures and KNOW about these similarities - that's what I meant with common cultural structures. You can expand the examples to many other fields of life.
Most important, however: Educated people tend to identify their own culture in a different way than the simple man. The example par excellence is religion. I've made the experience that academics show a far lesser tendency to define themselves by a particular religion and usually are agnostics at best, while the working class is often religious (maybe not always "truly religious" in the real biblical sense, though, but the church is a fix part of the identity). This also often prevents intercultural marriages as these people often wish to marry within their own religious denomination.

So, as far as my opinion is concerned, I can only speak from my own experience based on Armenian (and some non-Armenian) intercultural marriages, I beg your pardon if my views are not compatible with yours. As I believe that the issue of concern are merely the children, I will confine myself to them: If the children are raised in Armenia, nothing matters, marry as you like (except Turks). The child will eventually end up being Armenian. In the diaspora, however, things are more complicated. Judgning from my observations, if you insist on your child learning Armenian and retaining the Armenian heritage, then it is crucially important that you marry someone Armenian or at least someone from a similar culture (as with all things, exceptions confirm the rule). I have some Parskahay friends who married Persian women/men and those two cultures go well together because of numerous shared stuff. Furthermore, those who marry Armenians will usually either be Christians or convert to Christianity (if they legally can) - all the children of my friends are Christians (or, well, Atheists) and those living in Iran go to Armenian schools and learn to write Armenian etc. Also, "Armenian" is a socially recognised Iranian identity amongst Persians, meaning that most people over there (errogenously) believe Armenans are Iranians, so it is very normal to be an Iranian and Armenian at the same time, there's no need to "give up" one culture. Another people that seem to go well are Aramaeans (wrongly named "Assyrians" or "Chaldeans" - the same thing, actually) and as we know, there is a certain tradition between Armenians and Aramaeans as for marriage. One of my neighbours married an aramaean woman and that was just a perfect catch! (The guy's family though was very racist towards her, for reasons incomprehensible to me). I only know of one woman having married a Greek, and they seem to have faired well so far, but I don't know about children. And I know some Armenian-German marriages and Armenian-Russian: Their children will definitely lose their roots, as far as I can tell, no chance there. But that's only what I've seen, maybe your experiences are different.

So all in all, I am not against intercultural relationships, they can produce better, broader educated Armenians in some cases - what's more important is that the otar partner is someone who himself/herself is interested in the Armenian culture and learns the language, the script, etc. That's what I'd expect at least. But I don't consider foreign cultural influence per se as a threat. I would not want my children to grow up wothout Tumanyan, Shiraz, Charents, Kuchak, but also not without Khayyam, Hafez, Homer or Sophokles.

The only exception I have to make is with Turks. First of all, an Armenian marrying a Turk is just raping his/her ancestors. No discussion here. Moreover, possible children of such parents would grow up with a serious crisis of identity and probably give in to the more accepting Turkish side.

Just my two cents wink.gif

Edited by Partevhasak, 03 March 2009 - 02:00 AM.


#11 Yervant1

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:58 AM

Dear Partevhasak, welcome to Hyeforum! smile.gif
Great first post, please do continue.

#12 Ashot

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE (Partevhasak @ Mar 2 2009, 11:50 PM)
The only exception I have to make is with Turks. First of all, an Armenian marrying a Turk is just raping his/her ancestors. No discussion here. Moreover, possible children of such parents would grow up with a serious crisis of identity and probably give in to the more accepting Turkish side.

Just my two cents wink.gif


I would have to somewhat disagree with this statement, with more marriages between Armenians and Turks we could actually somewhat establish a mutual agreement, people who marry other nationalities tend to forget about their own backgrounds in the name of love - meaning if a Turk and an Armenian marry one another, they both agree to live a neutral lifestyle where they don't care what happened in 1915, therefore they would have to stay out of politics, so why can't we just breed 20 million Armenians to marry them with the Furks and eventually it will be 100,000 JudeoFurks against 3 mil Armenians! smile.gif
On a serious note, the child growing in the family of two opposing nationalities is and will be neutral, therefore making sure he/she gets the facts straight before opening it's mouth and saying stupidity just like many Furks do... This will actually help us instead of as some thing destroy us...
A friend of mine works with a pure breed Furk, who does strongly agree with us Armenians that the JudeoFurks are the ones responsible for everything. He does strongly believe that Armenians and Purebred Furks were and still could be very good with one another if there were no JudeoFurkish government up until today.

#13 MosJan

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 07:31 PM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Mar 3 2009, 05:00 PM)
I would have to somewhat disagree with this statement, with more marriages between Armenians and Turks we could actually somewhat establish a mutual agreement, people who marry other nationalities tend to forget about their own backgrounds in the name of love - meaning if a Turk and an Armenian marry one another, they both agree to live a neutral lifestyle where they don't care what happened in 1915, therefore they would have to stay out of politics, so why can't we just breed 20 million Armenians to marry them with the Furks and eventually it will be 100,000 JudeoFurks against 3 mil Armenians! smile.gif
On a serious note, the child growing in the family of two opposing nationalities is and will be neutral, therefore making sure he/she gets the facts straight before opening it's mouth and saying stupidity just like many Furks do... This will actually help us instead of as some thing destroy us...
A friend of mine works with a pure breed Furk, who does strongly agree with us Armenians that the JudeoFurks are the ones responsible for everything. He does strongly believe that Armenians and Purebred Furks were and still could be very good with one another if there were no JudeoFurkish government up until today.



Ashot es inch es xmel ?? ara qez asinq che et qimyakan spirt@ xmelu hamar chi iy axper

#14 Ashot

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 07:48 PM

inch anem Mos jan, inchqanel zzvumem drancic, bayc de baner kan vor chenq kara xusapenq...

Hamel chem haskanum chi kareli miqichel hnarel?

Edited by Ashot, 03 March 2009 - 07:48 PM.


#15 Partevhasak

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 10:21 AM

QUOTE (Ashot @ Mar 4 2009, 02:00 AM)
I would have to somewhat disagree with this statement, with more marriages between Armenians and Turks we could actually somewhat establish a mutual agreement, people who marry other nationalities tend to forget about their own backgrounds in the name of love - meaning if a Turk and an Armenian marry one another, they both agree to live a neutral lifestyle where they don't care what happened in 1915, therefore they would have to stay out of politics, so why can't we just breed 20 million Armenians to marry them with the Furks and eventually it will be 100,000 JudeoFurks against 3 mil Armenians! smile.gif
On a serious note, the child growing in the family of two opposing nationalities is and will be neutral, therefore making sure he/she gets the facts straight before opening it's mouth and saying stupidity just like many Furks do... This will actually help us instead of as some thing destroy us...
A friend of mine works with a pure breed Furk, who does strongly agree with us Armenians that the JudeoFurks are the ones responsible for everything. He does strongly believe that Armenians and Purebred Furks were and still could be very good with one another if there were no JudeoFurkish government up until today.


Lav... inch asem? First of all, thanks for your views, very interesting. You are very optimistic, if you allow me to say so in a positive way. smile.gif
However, I believe that you don't really know many Turks - please correct me if I'm wrong. If you did know them, you'd revise your ideas for the following reasons: If we just look at the development of the Turkish identity, then we can clearly state that it is one of the fastest growing in the Middle East. I actually happen to know tons of them (it's inevitable in some places). More often than not, if you go to a Turkish xyz-shop and have a chat with the shop keeper, you'd realise he's actually a Kurd (i.e. Kurd, Zaza, Armenian, Aramaean, or anything not "Turkish" originating in Turkey). But these people increasingly call themselves Turks today, simply because it is much easier for them to be a Turk than anything else, their children often don't know a word of Kurdish or whatever else. (BTW - We also have quite a few Armenian families who are "Turks" ot "Kurds" nowadays.) Anyway, the point is that the Turkish identity is a very strong one. Just look a bit around you: Who the hell spoke about "Turks" in Irak until some years ago? But as we see, today, around 1-2% of the country's population are called "Turkmens". They are heavily supported by Turkey of course and happen to live just around the oil sources, but the point is that their identity has strengthened immensly in the last few years. What about other counries? Bulgaria, Krim Island, Albania... Turkish minorities everywhere, not the slightest decrease in their population records. In Iran, the Turkish invasion took place about 1000 yrs ago. While the original Mongolian Turks (the invaders) were clearly an extreme minority, as can be illustrated looking at the people living there today, today, their language is spoken not only by their own descendants, but also by the descendants of Medes, Parthians, Sogdians ("Uzbekistan"). Moreover, their numbers are drastically increasing (more than the rest) and the only place in Iran, where you can still find people (admittedly not very numerous, though) who don't speak a word of the official Persian is Azarbaijan. Just like Turks in Germany, in Ukraine, in wherever the hell they settle - they do not "integrate" themselves very well because the Turkish identity is not based on co-existence, but on rape, murder, robbery and theft (just see an actual statistical report in the German "Spiegel" magazine, where the Turks come out last BY FAR in terms of integration, education etc.). You can see this in Uzbekistan too, until recently mainly populated with Tajiks: The Turks virtually eliminate everything non-Turkish there (Jews, Armenians, Tajiks, etc.). I'm not saying that every Turk is a murderer or thief, but their culture is based on such elements, meaning that if a Turk refers to anything Turkish (e.g. "we have Ayran (drink), we have xyz-instrument, we have xyz-place with xyz-ancient ruins, our country, our pride, I love Istanbul, blue mosque etc."), he does in fact refer to Greek, Armenian, Iranian, Arab (or even Anatolian) cultural products. Face it, what the Turks came up with in all these centuries was "many sexual explosions inside of non-Turkish women" (as Borat would express it smile.gif ) and the genocide or Armenians, Aramaeans, Pontic Greeks and progromes against Zazas - of course, after they first reduced the world's Iranian stock by about 50% in the east (an unbelievable performance, actually). What else is there?

Now imagine a child from a Turkish-Armenian relationship (never witnessed one, btw), let's assume his parents want to express his multiculturalism and name him Levon. smile.gif Also, let's imagine his mother is Hay and has a decent job which does not require her being naked. Now, either she's absolutely ignorant about her culture, her roots etc. and so's his dad, in which case Levon most probably wouldn't care a rat's ass about Armenia. Or his dad is a fanatic Anti-Turk for some reason, in which case Levon most probably would not consider himself Turkish, and neither his dad, and they wouldn't really be considered so by the Turks as well. So what could such people possibly do for the Armenian cause? BTW - this is an extremely constructed situation, if you want to know what reality looks like: Probably, such children would fall for the Turkish identity or consider themselves British, American, German, French etc., because 1. most people today are not interested in politics, even more, if they possess a mixed heritage; 2. on a purely social basis, there are far more Turks around (exc. for Glendale smile.gif ), they have a very "brotherly" culture = they easily accept ANYONE, so it's more probable to make Turkish friends than Armenian; 3. it's cheaper, easier and more comfortable to make holidays in "Antalya" than in Yerevan (or Sevan) - very simplistic argument, but very true...; 4. If you have two identities: on the one side, you have genocide, the fight for recognition, a small country, many sad elements (music, poetry), a sad history, no major role in history/politics, i.e. "losers" - and on the other side, you have "winners", Kebab, dance music, great country with a glorious history (from 0 to everything they have, Ottoman Empire etc.), your only major concern is to be a part of Europe = winner's club, you have fellow compatriots everywhere, you don't have to integrate yourself anywhere b/c your compatriots will beat the shit out of English/German/French/whatever who criticise you etc. etc. PLUS: you will probably be discriminated by the Armenian society.

So you tell me what identity YOU would chose if you weren't Armenian and did not have all that info about the past. You cannot expect a 14yr old to show such high moral and educational standards while most 14yr old Armenians in the US don't even know many things about their culture. So no, I do not believe that ANYONE should mix with Turks - not the Germans, not the Lebanese, not the English, the Spanish, and certainly not the Armenians.

As the Russians say, one spoon of shit spoils an entire keg of honey...

Edited by Partevhasak, 07 March 2009 - 10:27 AM.


#16 Arpa

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:32 PM

Dear Partevhasak, “(Parthian) towering height”, first off a Warm Welcome to you.
An excellent essay above. Allow me to congratulate you for your mastery of the English language.
Please allow me to urge you to repost your excellent article under a topic that have dealt with “identity” issues. There are many, please search and find an appropriate topic. Off the top , here are a few.
http://hyeforum.com/...=17700&hl=kurds
http://hyeforum.com/...=10672&hl=kurds






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