491 replies to this topic

[DominO]

Sasun, I don't understand what God you're talking about. The problem is we haven't defined what or how God is. Are you talking about the Judeo-Christian God? I am talking about that God and because the Church has failed to show me any evidence or rational reason of His existence I don't believe He exists.

But I used to believe in a higher being. Maybe there is a higher being apart from the material world we know, but I won't call it God.

Doubting is the starting point of knowledge, this was what Descartes was keep saying.

Actually, there is a higher being for those that beieve there is one. They are TVs on a channel where there is a higher being.

Keep something in mind, you can not believe something that can not exist... you believe something because this believe is a result of a connection of your brain... the believe is associated with connections... those connections exist... they are like transistors, capacitors, condensers etc... the brain is a TV tunner. The you is just a possibility that exist, and the brain has selected this you among infinit yous...

OK! I am changing the subject... but what I am trying to say, is that God really exist for those that believe of his existance, and God really doesn't exist for those that don't believe of his existance... some channels don't include God, others do include it.

[Armat]

Doubting is the starting point of knowledge, this was what Descartes was keep saying.

Nice Domino, I agree
True personal story related to this discussion.
About fifteen years ego friend of mine asked me to go skiing with him. Long story short he was speeding down on a snowy curvy maintain road (Big Bear) and the idiot pressed on the breaks needless to say for what seemed an eternity the car sled towards the gorge head on. All I could think was GOD let me live-I am too young to die.
For some miracle the road bumper got stuck under the car and it prevented the car from killing all four of us inside.
From that day on I asked repentantly why did I an atheist at the time asked God for help. I was changed not that I joined a religion or a cult but profoundly realized that simply there is much more to life then plain materialism.
I do not practice anything but when I paint I feel the God within…Another footnote I went to Rembrandt’s exhibition recently and I was at the present of a great soul, true believer. He famously said that all is spirit and I believe that as well.

[Sasun]

Yeah Armat ... if all fails then you turn to God as the last resort, yet God never asked anything in return

[Sasun]

Sasun, I don't understand what God you're talking about. The problem is we haven't defined what or how God is. Are you talking about the Judeo-Christian God? I am talking about that God and because the Church has failed to show me any evidence or rational reason of His existence I don't believe He exists.

But I used to believe in a higher being. Maybe there is a higher being apart from the material world we know, but I won't call it God.

Anoushik, there is only one God and I am talking about that God
We cannot define God but we can try to understand and have a very little knowledge of him. Some of our little knowledge of Him: omniscient, omnipotent, compassionate, infinitely vast, infinitely wise, infinitely beatiful, infinitely humble, infinitely luminous, creator and maintainer of the universe, giver of life and death.... who exists everywhere but can be seen nowhere, who never had a beginning and will never have and end, etc... the list can go on and on... this is the God I am talking about

The church or anyone else cannot prove the existence of God if you don't want to believe. But if you want to find God you can and you will

[Anoushik]

Armat, see, that's what I don't like about religion. When the Twin Towers fell during Sep. 11, aside from firefighters, only one person was pulled off from the rubbles. She said that she had prayed to God to help her and because of God's help she survived. And from that day on she has gone to Church every Sunday and has become very religious. So the rest of the 2000 people who died didn't ask any help from God? That's why they deserved to die and leave their families hearbroken?

[Armat]

Anoushik I can't answear you directly since words are not adequate .I will in my own way.

Rembrandt's family life was marked by misfortune. Between 1635 and 1641 Saskia gave birth to four children, but only the last, Titus, survived; her own death came in 1642- at the age of 30.
His personal life, however, continued to be marred by sorrow. His beloved Hendrickje died in 1663, and his son, Titus, in 1668- only 27 years of age. Eleven months later, on October 4, 1669, Rembrandt died in Amsterdam.

I don’t know why this post but I just love this man. What a great human soul. To continue to believe in God and continue to paint even though losing both wives and all the children will break any man but he created great masterpieces even when his life was full of sorrow and misery.
One only need to look at his portraits the later years and all is clear.

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[spectra]

I think god exist, I have seen him in my dream. The picture was as follows: I was in Ejmiatsin, the place where I was born and raised, and it was a night, the stars were falling down and a men with a beard was slowly coming towards me, towards the earth. His face was very similar to Vazgen I Catholicos of all Armenians. Then he touched my head and then I don't remember the rest. But right the next day I went to Surb Mariam Astvatsatsin church. I love god and I love Jesus! Astvats is very kind and Astvatsatsin is kinder.

I think god has played a major role in Armenians life. In many battles we have been united and unanimously fought with the enemies, just because we were Christians. I think that every Armenian should be a Christian.

Anoushik, I agree it is your opinion to express your emotional feelings, but think that we're losing our national look in Diaspora, don't you think we have lost already a lot of Armenians?

[Anoushik]

Armat, thank you. Because just like you feel when you look at this painting I feel the same when listening to J. S. Bach's Chaconne for solo violin. I can feel how Bach put his love for God into that work. It's a beautiful piece.

But Armat, it's possible for someone to be as devout to humans as one could be to God. I don't believe in God because I have no reason to believe in Him.

[Anoushik]

Spectra, Christianity has played an important role in Armenian history, but times have changed. If you think about it, no one is really religious. True Chrisitians really should serve humanity, because Jesus said that we should see Him in every person, and just as we love Him and want to serve Him we should do so towards each other. Yet people only remember God out of selfishness, when bad things or extraordinary good things happen to them, and suddenly they remember that they are religious. As far as helping others, everyone thinks others should take care of themselves, and if it's possible, use others to benefit them. Armenians are especially good at this.

[CheekY]

anoushik are you like that too?

[Anoushik]

Like what?

[CheekY]

Yet people only remember God out of selfishness, when bad things or extraordinary good things happen to them, and suddenly they remember that they are religious. As far as helping others, everyone thinks others should take care of themselves, and if it's possible, use others to benefit them. Armenians are especially good at this.

like that


you don't have to go to church every sunday and pray 24/7 in order to be considered religious...

[axel]

Spectra, Christianity has played an important role in Armenian history, but times have changed. If you think about it, no one is really religious. True Chrisitians really should serve humanity, because Jesus said that we should see Him in every person, and just as we love Him and want to serve Him we should do so towards each other. Yet people only remember God out of selfishness, when bad things or extraordinary good things happen to them, and suddenly they remember that they are religious. As far as helping others, everyone thinks others should take care of themselves, and if it's possible, use others to benefit them. Armenians are especially good at this.

Well this is entirely different. You (rightly) accuse some self-proclaimed christians of being unchristian and irreligious and you use this argument to discredit faith and support atheism? this doesn't make sense really.

And again with the twin towers example, you're not rejecting God but some misconceptions people have about God.

The following essay is worth reading for it addresses all the questions that have been raised in this thread: http://www.chebucto....ssays/worth.htm

there are a number of threads on theism/atheism/agnosticism on this board btw:
here is one I initiated a year ago: http://64.21.83.54/f...?showtopic=3240

[gurgen]

Anoushik I can't answear you directly since words are not adequate .I will in my own way.

Rembrandt's family life was marked by misfortune. Between 1635 and 1641 Saskia gave birth to four children, but only the last, Titus, survived; her own death came in 1642- at the age of 30.
His personal life, however, continued to be marred by sorrow. His beloved Hendrickje died in 1663, and his son, Titus, in 1668- only 27 years of age. Eleven months later, on October 4, 1669, Rembrandt died in Amsterdam.

I don’t know why this post but I just love this man. What a great human soul. To continue to believe in God and continue to paint even though losing both wives and all the children will break any man but he created great masterpieces even when his life was full of sorrow and misery.
One only need to look at his portraits the later years and all is clear.

Apart from being a tax fraud and a criminal, yes Rembrandt was a great man

Edited by gurgen, 09 January 2004 - 08:24 AM.

[CheekY]

I don't believe in God because I have no reason to believe in Him.

Anoushik you know what right now you don’t believe in God but maybe later when you have a “reason” you will… like you said there are people who never believed in him but then something bad happened to them and they asked him for help and everything changed… so maybe deep down they always believed in him but never really realized that?
you don’t have to believe in the God from the Bible but everyone believes in something which they call God…

this is kinda interesting http://www.christian...n/edn-t003.html

Edited by skittles, 09 January 2004 - 09:32 AM.

[UKGIRL28]

In my childhood, my Mother specifically sent me to Roman Catholic Schools, primary, Middle and High School and we were taught Religious Studies in classes I didnt enjoy it very much (but thats just me)...and because my mother was raised in a strict catholic manner where you had to go to church every Sunday, she tried to raise me in the same way by making me go to church when I was older... so I had my Communion and got Confirmed and everything..

I dont particularly think Religion is that important in everyday life and i certainly dont go to church anymore, but I do agree with Skittles with the fact that .. you don't have to go to church every sunday and pray 24/7 in order to be considered religious... I think people take religion too seriously these days (which ever religion it is) but that is my own opinion and im not implying what society should or shouldnt do.. Obviously, we all have a choice in life and whether we believe in God or not is entirely up to ourselves at the end of the day.. and yeah, if something dramatic happened in your life, there is the option of turning to religion if you think it would help...I certainly did, but that didnt mean I still go to church every sunday..

[Armat]

Armat, thank you. Because just like you feel when you look at this painting I feel the same when listening to J. S. Bach's Chaconne for solo violin. I can feel how Bach put his love for God into that work. It's a beautiful piece.

But Armat, it's possible for someone to be as devout to humans as one could be to God. I don't believe in God because I have no reason to believe in Him.

Anoushik
I understand you completely since I had the very same thinking pattern myself. Most important for me at least is to clarify what is God. What you referring is what most people wrongly assume that God is someone or something which plays cards with people’s
Lives and decides who dies who doesn’t etc.
This is pure fiction. God consciousness is deeper which transcends the ordinary thinking of opposites heaven-hell etc. It is beyond that. God is the ultimate force beyond everything even molecules, electrons and all matter.
I read enough science books to realize that even science is inadequate to explain the whole existence of all matter, planets, Galaxies.
God for me is the very force, which my body embodies within and out, therefore it is extremely hard to understand rationally, in dualistic matter.
You approach is counteractive meaning you will never understand it in a traditional thinking methods nor you will understand it through reading the bible stories. Like I said already it transcends thinking…
PS I love Bach myself.

[DominO]

Armat, nice story, I do have similar ones.

Anoushik, regarding the prayer, yes! 2000 died even if they may have prayed, but this is not an evidence to reject the existance of something more, because the person that died may be alive on another Universe where the possibility of his non-death existed, him being the observer could only be aware of his life and not death. He could observe the death of others but not his own and will keep wondering like you why is he still alive while others died.

And as well, for the believer in a God, the one that is convinced, he will observe things, thos that believe in supernatural will have premonition dreams, stuff like this which will stop when they stop believing...

[Anoushik]

Armat, you're thinking exactly like my father. We've had similar discussions about this. I wouldn't call my really religious, but he is very spiritual. It's so interesting, he defines God exactly like you do.

As for me, the more I think about it the less I am convinced. Like I said earlier, maybe there's a higher being, that's a great possibility, but I won't call it God. I've read about Atheism and every atheist has a different view about spirituality - some are very skeptic and some believe in ghosts. The only thing they have in common is that they don't believe in the traditional God. Similarly, I don't believe in Him. Whatever exists is not God.

Domino, I'm really sorry, but I don't understand your version of multiple universes. I've tried, really, even researched!

[Armat]

Anoushik read it here.Scientific American. It is not as weird as some may think.It is highly probable.

http://www.sciam.com...EA5809EC5880000