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#41 Arpa

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 12:24 PM

Axel, you owe us an explanation.
I may not be the smartest person here, but what is you definition of a "nation"? Are you confusing it with "denomi-nation"?
Please don't mind me asking this. Are you an officer of the "church"? Do you make a living off of it?
Are you willing expel everyone out of Yerevan Province, including Catholics, Protestants, Greeks, Russians, Yezidis, and, Astuats mi arastse, Molsems? Is that your definition of a "nation"? Are you talking about THEocracy or DEMOcracy?

BTW, Thank you for the translation. I knew you could be of some use other than proseletyzing and condemming every one that falls outside of your definition of a nation".

#42 MJ

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 12:37 PM

Arpa,

As fast as he can spin, how does Axel himself belong to our Nation? Isn't it clear by now that he is a Turkish propagandist trying to get into the trust of "Der Voghormea Armenians?" :P

#43 axel

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 12:52 PM

I may not be the smartest person here, but what is you definition of a "nation"?


It would be to long to formulate and I'm kind of tired. But I see a nation as a spiritual entity sharing a common ideal, working towards a common end. Common culture, language, traditions, ethnicity are also to be considered. But the single most important thing is spirit. The Jews as diverse as they may be (ethnically...) qualify as a nation.

Are you an officer of the "church"? Do you make a living off of it?


Not exactly. I attend Church about twice a month and I certainly do not earn anything in return. I do it "for free". I have faith.

Are you willing expel everyone out of Yerevan Province, including Catholics, Protestants, Greeks, Russians, Yezidis, and, Astuats mi arastse, Molsems? Is that your definition of a "nation"?


Certainly not. Saying one does not belong to our nation doesn't imply expelling him, does it? btw, I've never said catholics or protestants did not belong to our nation. but hamshins left us and joined the turks. why should we consider them as part of our nation? if they want to come back and join us, I will be the first one to welcome them. the thing is we cannot include in our ranks those who exclude themselves.

I knew you could be of some use other than proseletyzing and condemming every one that falls outside of your definition of a nation".


proselytizing? I am not defending Jehovah witnesses as MJ, am I? I am just defending our plurisecular faith. is this what you call proselytizing? :blink:

#44 Arpa

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 01:14 PM

Certainly not. Saying one does not belong to our nation doesn't imply expelling him, does it? btw, I've never said catholics or protestants did not belong to our nation. but hamshins left us and joined the turks. why should we consider them as part of our nation? if they want to come back and join us, I will be the first one to welcome them. the thing is we cannot include in our ranks those who exclude themselves.

You may want to review your history.
Hamshenites converted under duress and from what I understand they are trying very hard to come back. Only one thing may be stopping them. It is is your "welcome mat" which as I can read it says; "Stay ourt you traitor SOBs!" And you expect them to come back to such an hostile "reception/rejection"?

#45 axel

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 02:57 PM

THIS IS A SCOOP. If Hamshenites have not been able to come back to this day, it is because of Axel, the Grand Inquisitor of HyeForum and his hostile stand towards them. :lol2: I didn't know my writings had such impact on the fate of our nation. I am quite flattered ;)

Seriously though, if they feel as part of our Nation and adhere to our cause, who am I to "excommunicate" them? But if they identify with turks as the article above suggests, how can we consider them as armenians?

Peace. :)

#46 nairi

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 04:19 PM

In case anyone is interested or lives close by, Leiden University is holding a workshop on Hamshen Armenians on October 20-23. See for more info below.

As for me, I'm not sure if I'll go. I'll see.

:oops: Totally forgot about it until it was too late... And then I forgot to reply to this thread to say that I'd forgotten about it... Only remembered just now... I'll go next time maybe... if there is a next time...

#47 hemsin basköylü

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 06:22 PM

barev can"s, pharigiseri

I do see ; you talk over uns.ich can not well English. no problem??. Our souls are togetter.)). we are feeling hy. that is primery.:))
yes, we are historicel-hayks from hayassa. we are the(i am) Grandchilds of Prince hamam h/amatuni.Wir are not destroyed. We live. We lost our language. We lost our religion. this no problem for us.We have our Hy-Idendity. we have our power.we have our history from 4000 tausend years.
the homsetsi"s living on historicel area hamsen-hemsin nord-east anatolian(west-armenian) many people from hamshen speeking grapar now.
its dangures for us, because the officels reaction states of turkey,of us is to agressiv, because we want our identity.
they are living ca. 5 millions converted-hays of west-hyastan(today on the turkey).
we are coming slowly, with a big power.
sorry for my english. i can good german. we are

yes hy em
yes hy em
kach vartanin tornem yes
homsetsi-hy em yes
i hopp ,you anderstand it

hemsin basköylü
grandchild of the Prince hamam hamatuni
prince tigran hamam hamatuni k.

#48 hemsin basköylü

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 06:34 PM

Dr.Hovann Simonian (USC)
Crypto-Christianity and an Armenian-speaking Islamic Community: The Hemshins.
The Armenians of the Hemshin district, located in the eastern section of the Pontos, were affected by forced Islamization at the beginning of the eighteenth century, and today are the only community of Armenian-speaking Muslims. As with the Pontic Greeks and some Albanian communities, conversion was often only external at the outset, so that crypto-Christians (Kes-Kes, Arm. half and half) constituted a majority of the Hemshin population in the following centuries. To this day, the Hemshins celebrate Vartevar, the feast of the transfiguration of Christ, with a festival, although the original religious significance of the event seems to have been lost on them. This paper will examine the historical circumstances surrounding the conversion of the Hemshins to Islam, the subsequent retention of crypto-Christian practices within the converted community, and the emergence of a Hemshin ethnic identity organized around the somewhat contradictory poles of allegiance to Islam and use of the Armenian language.

this articel is from www.yaylayolu.info (english forum)

#49 gamavor

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 08:51 PM

Ladies and gentlemen,

The ice have started cracking!


:)

#50 DominO

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 05:57 PM

Ladies and gentlemen,

The ice have started cracking!


:)

I don't believe it.... Gamavor is even more optimist than me. :D

#51 DominO

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 06:01 PM

BTW, hemsin basköylü, thanks for the link, I think I will visit that board and place some things in order. :D :lol: :P

#52 gamavor

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Posted 15 November 2003 - 12:38 AM

Domino, my friend, I'm always optimist even when I'm rude and sarcastic. I don't believe in anthropology and I don't believe in DNA, but I believe in the tickness of one's blood. When the blood starts talking anything is possible. That’s the beauty and the magic. :)

#53 hemsin basköylü

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 08:44 PM

BAREV CAN"S INC PES ES



Makale yazari: basköylü Tarih, gün ve saat : 23. Aralik 2003 02:25:21:

HOMSETZIHAY"EM YES
HOMSETZIHAY"EM YES
KAÇH VARTANIN YEV HAMAMIN TORNEM YES
HOMSETZIHAY*EM YES
(ayadıp'es e)
HEMSIN BASKÖYLÜ

HOMSHETZI PAGES--- HASZE

http://www.f20.parsi...36933/index.htm

http://www.yaylayolu.info/

http://www.yaylayolu...wforum.php?f=14

http://www.yaylayolu...ewforum.php?f=6

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


SATIRE FROM HAMSHEN :))


Yiyek hadik enger tsaxutn ive kayığ enuş gerton. Tsaxutin keloxn ive kellin kayığe genin. Şad barak gelli; hemi inçetsnuş kuzin. Andi inçetsnele erguse
uuş compatsove compan işnoğun meg al na satarin kelxan compan inçetsnoğum gasa. Dağin onune Temel gelli. Temele çvone cedin gaba gu. "Yes hemi
asdi inçetsenim" gasa. Andi engerdake compan kiçnun put genin martun vucude go keloxe çgo. "Yahu," gasin, "asu kloxe gar ta çgar ta? İnç enik inç
enik oç?" Yuuts put genin "yahu," gasin, "meg erta gasa genoçe harts enik balki genige kidena gu." Genoçe mode gerton, "yahu," gasin, "ku martun
keloxe vaan er ta vaan çer ta?" Genign a gasa. "As akvan a," gasa, "kahvalti hazırlamiş i," gasa, "bat marte giav ta giav oç ta çkidim," gasa.

#54 Arpa

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 09:29 PM

BAREV CAN"S INC PES ES



Makale yazari: basköylü Tarih, gün ve saat : 23. Aralik 2003 02:25:21:

HOMSETZIHAY"EM YES
HOMSETZIHAY"EM YES
KAÇH VARTANIN YEV HAMAMIN TORNEM YES
HOMSETZIHAY*EM YES
(ayadıp'es e)
HEMSIN BASKÖYLÜ

HOMSHETZI PAGES--- HASZE

http://www.yaylayolu...ewforum.php?f=6

Tigran Bari Ekar.
Inchpes es?
Thank you very much for the sites.
The last one , above is fascianting and must be a must read for all of us.

Hosh geldin
Yine gel

#55 nairi

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 10:05 PM

Thank you Tigran! And welcome to Hyeforum! Huysov em aveli hatchakh gas!

Selams :)

#56 Arpa

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 10:16 PM

Tigran,
Kaj Vardani Tor, Grandson of Prince Hamam Amatuni,
You write in any language you feel comfortablbe, be it Armenian, German or even Turkish. We can translate them.
Du grir inch vor lezvov k'ouzes, @lla Hayeren, Germaneren kam Turkeren, menk karogh enk targmanel.
Sen yazabilirsin her hangi dil ile, Ermenice, Almanca ya Turkce, biz tercume ederik.

#57 Arpa

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 12:54 PM

This is more fascinating than I imagined.
A segment from the above site.
I may repost some more riveting segments.
We have recently heard of Abkhazian Turks from Cnetral Asia who were supposedly relocated during stalinistic times wanting to return to their so called ancestral homeland in Grorgia.
==========

"Beginning in about the sixteenth century, a large portion of the Hemshinli converted to
Islam. This trend assumed a significantly larger scale in the eighteenth century, and continued to
a lesser degree up to the beginning of the twentieth century. Those Hemshinli who converted to
Islam were allowed to remain in situ, and have essentially been left undisturbed since that time.
Those who refused to convert had in effect the choice of fleeing or taking their chances where
they were. The first wave of refugees fled westwards to Trabzon, Giresun, Samsun, and so on.
Their descendants successfully established new communities along the Black Sea coasts of
Georgia, Abkhazia, and Russia, and in the western Turkish provinces of Bolu and Sakarya in the
nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Some of the Hemshinli in western Turkey relocated to
Armenia after the First World War.
Throughout this sequence of conversions and emigration small pockets of Christian
Hemshinli survived in Turkey, until 1915. We have reason to believe that the eastern Hemshinli
in Cengiz’s area, isolated in the mountain fastnesses of northern Hopa subprovince, were among
the last to convert en masse, in the late seventeenth century. To the best of our knowledge,
though, there are currently no Christian Hemshinli left in Turkey.
We do not know when the eastern Hemshinli, the least studied of the various Hemshinli
subgroups, extended into the Hopa region and southern Georgia (Benninghaus 1989:482). We
6
do know, however, that the Hemshinli who had converted and then established themselves along
the Georgian coast fell victim to Stalins deportation of some 200,000 residents of Georgians
southern border to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan in 1944. These Central Asian Hemshinli
communities remain distinct and alive up to the present day, and at least some members retain
Homshetsma (Robert Krikorian, personal communication; Kuznetsov 2001). It is interesting to
note that some members of the Central Asian Hemshinli community petitioned to relocate to
Armenia near the end of the Soviet period, and were refused on account of their religion (Robert
Krikorian, personal communication)."


#58 Arpa

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Posted 23 November 2003 - 01:12 PM

"The Hemshinli have also preserved a few isolated Christian items in their lexicon. For
example, unlike the Laz, who have replaced their original Caucasian word for god with Turkish
tanr¥ (Dumézil 1937), the Hemshinli have preserved the original Armenian word astuac
astuac in the form asbac (aspaj), which shows up in expressions such as asbac xentana
Ïeziki aspaj xendacna kezigi may god make you joyful. The form aspaj is only attested
elsewhere in the dialect of Akn, which as we have already seen must have once been in closer
contact with the Hamshen Armenians. Xendana is the causative subjunctive of the verb xenduß,
which preserves the original meaning of the Classical Armenian verb xndal xndal rejoice, be
joyful, unlike standard modern Armenian, wherein this verb now means specifically to laugh.
One can also notice in this blessing the dative suffix -gi, which is only found in Homshetsma.
Another interesting remnant of the Hemshinli's Christian past is the verb xaæuß xaçuß,
which means to nail an entrance shut with two boards in certain situations it can also have the
more generic meaning to close. Cengiz describes this verb as being based on the image of the
two boards nailed on top of one another in perpendicular fashion. This suggests that the verb is
derived from the Armenian noun xaæ aæ cross which has been lost in Cengizs dialect as part
of the general dechristianization of the lexicon.
So far we"ve seen that the conversion to Islam has resulted in a striking dechristianization
of the language and culture of the Turkish Hemshinli. However, as can be seen from the tale of
Temel's Head, the assimilation of the Hemshinli to their Turkish neighbors has had a more
general impact on their language and culture as well. The younger generation has assimilated
many of the basic characteristics of Turkish pronunciation, so that the Q("ghad"), which in most
forms of Armenian is pronounced as a voiced uvular fricative , is pronounced by the younger
Hemshinli in the same manner as Turkish @ (yumußak ge "soft g"), that is either as a barely
audible uvular approximant, or as nothing at all. The older Hemshinli, on the other hand, still
speak with what we can call an Armenian accent.
There has also been a massive influx of Turkish vocabulary, to a much greater extent
than we find in other Armenian dialects.
========

Related to this dechristianization is the Hemshinli's
loss of Armenian identity. For example, the Hemshinli have completely lost the word hay
Armenian and its derivatives, such as hayerên Armenian language ;, using instead the terms
homßei and homßema respectively. Similarly, as I mentioned earlier, the eastern Hemshinli
use the Turkish term for Armenians, ermeni, to refer to drunkards. One also finds amongst the
Turkish Hemshinli sentiments such as the following, which was expressed in a 1984 letter from
an eastern Hemshinli to Rüdiger Benninghaus: the Armenians are terrorists, and therefore the
peaceful Hemshinli cannot be of Armenian descent
(Benninghaus 1989:486)"


#59 hagopn

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Posted 24 November 2003 - 11:58 PM

This overall Hamshen discussion is extremely interesting and informative. My brain is still buzzing from overflow--:)

There are a few points I want to address that were brought up during the discussion:

1. The Hamshenatsi are considered by Simonian as "western Armenians," but I am afraid that is a geographical attribute only. Below is the posting by Tigran in his native dialect. It sounds very unique to me, but the pronounciation seems eastern with the proper tri-consonant phonetics. Grabar seems to be the core of the dialect, and some of the morphology follows patterns found in Taron!

"Yiyek hadik enger tsaxutn ive kayığ enuş gerton. Tsaxutin keloxn ive kellin kayığe genin. Şad barak gelli; hemi inçetsnuş kuzin. Andi inçetsnele erguse
uuş compatsove compan işnoğun meg al na satarin kelxan compan inçetsnoğum gasa. Dağin onune Temel gelli. Temele çvone cedin gaba gu. "Yes hemi
asdi inçetsenim" gasa. Andi engerdake compan kiçnun put genin martun vucude go keloxe çgo. "Yahu," gasin, "asu kloxe gar ta çgar ta? İnç enik inç
enik oç?" Yuuts put genin "yahu," gasin, "meg erta gasa genoçe harts enik balki genige kidena gu." Genoçe mode gerton, "yahu," gasin, "ku martun
keloxe vaan er ta vaan çer ta?" Genign a gasa. "As akvan a," gasa, "kahvalti hazırlamiş i," gasa, "bat marte giav ta giav oç ta çkidim," gasa."

2. the Hamsheni do number perhaps 3 million. The "ethnic Turk" is a Kemalist illusion that still holds due to the incredible control on the majority by the organized and supported minority. Most are not so thoroughly "nationalized" as Kemal would have liked, and this is especially true in Cilicia. You still have persecution to the tooth in that region for that precise purpose, but the irony is that the persecution is on behalf of a government supported minority against a majority. Witnesses driving from Syria attest to this constantly.

#60 Arpa

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 08:17 AM

barev can"s, pharigiseri

I do  see ; you  talk over uns.ich can not  well English. no problem??. Our souls are togetter.)). we are feeling hy. that is primery.:))
yes, we are historicel-hayks from hayassa. we are the(i am) Grandchilds of Prince hamam h/amatuni.Wir are not destroyed. We live. We lost our language. We lost our religion. this no problem  for us.We have our Hy-Idendity. we have our power.we have our history from 4000 tausend years.
the homsetsi"s living  on historicel area hamsen-hemsin nord-east anatolian(west-armenian) many people from hamshen speeking grapar now.
its dangures for us, because the officels reaction states of turkey,of us is to agressiv, because we want our identity.
they are living ca. 5 millions converted-hays of west-hyastan(today on the turkey).
we are coming slowly, with a big power.
sorry for my english. i can good german. we are
 
yes hy em
yes hy em
kach vartanin tornem yes
homsetsi-hy em yes
i hopp ,you anderstand it

hemsin basköylü
grandchild of the Prince hamam hamatuni
prince tigran hamam hamatuni k.

Here is what Tigran wrote.
I will leave the post in its entirety. Pay specail attention to the sentence where he says this; '-east anatolian(west-armenian) many people from hamshen speeking grapar now.'
"grabar", and note his transliteration; "grabar", not "krapar".

Regardless of what Axel and his cohorts, blinded by the light/darkness of "mutavorich", we will shower the likes of Tigran with (Christian) LOVE and show them: How "blessed are those who profess to be Ermeni/Ne mutlu Ermeni im deyene". Religion(gehena erta) or not.
The likes pf Axel can go back to the monastery and play with thgemselves. We are here to enlarge our nation, not limit it to the state of a denomi-nation.




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