Jump to content


Photo

Another Victim Of Hatred by Russian nationalism and Skinheads in Russi


  • Please log in to reply
178 replies to this topic

#41 Shahan Araradian

Shahan Araradian

    նէմէսիս

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:20 PM

QUOTE(Nor Hayastan @ Apr 14 2007, 05:18 PM) View Post

Ur way of thinking Shahan jan is wrong. I'm born in the USA, and I grew up here all my life, so that doesn't make me Hayastanci? Stepan is right, wherever you are born, wherever you are raised... if you are Armenian, and you are part of Armenia (Hayastan), then you are HAYASTANci

I wouldn't quote an imbecile, and I don't want to give a response to an imbecile's quote. What are you talking about? What is he talking about? We all know what Հայաստանցի means.

There is a simple definition to Հայաստանցի: an Armenian born in Armenia or whose parents were born in Armenia. (It also generally means a Russian Armenian, as opposed to a Western Armenian or Iranian-Armenian living in Armenia.)

QUOTE(Nor Hayastan @ Apr 14 2007, 05:18 PM) View Post

wink.gif So enough of this division crap, that is why our nationality doesn't move forward. We take one step forward and two steps back. Jisht chem Harut jan?

There is no "division crap" here. I'm telling it like it is, and you shouldn't be offended from the truth. Reflect on it, and see what the reasons are and where we're going wrong. Because there's definitely something wrong here, and it might have to do with parenting, people's attitude in the new country, and a lack of community involvement.

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 14 April 2007 - 07:33 PM.


#42 Shahan Araradian

Shahan Araradian

    նէմէսիս

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:30 PM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 07:22 PM) View Post

Yet I must say Shahan, diminishing the graveness and the immorality of a murder based merely on their origin of the victim a massive, massive assumption. Was the 17 year old really killed because he was a token criminal Eastern/Russian/"Stantsi" Armenian, or because he was Armenian? Does the misbehavior of a ANY group justify ANY such crime?

We don't know why that 17 year old was killed. The articles don't say. I'm saying that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion to defend this kid just because he is Armenian. We don't know the details. 17 years old is not young. That is 11th grade in high school. We certainly don't know the details and cannot call this a hate crime. This person might have been a member of organized crime, or he might not. The real question is, why do Russians hate Russian Armenians? Why weren't Russian Armenians able to appease and be friends with their Russian neighbors? Why aren't they getting along with Mexican-Americans in L.A.?

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 07:22 PM) View Post

My friend, your view of the "Russianized Armenian" is a sweeping stereotype, and hints to an unhealthy perspective (and just for the record, I am not from Hayastan or Russia.)

Talking about reality often hurts, especially if it's not your ideal reality. Our newspapers aren't talking about it, and putting issues under the rug and not addressing them does not solve the problem at hand. This isn't a stereotype, this is reality from the ground.

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 07:22 PM) View Post

You mention the historic cause of the great schism of Armenians. You say that we were divided, as indeed we were.

Why, then, reemphasize this division and this gap? Why, thence, create even more division?

Do we not relate because of a common denominator? Why cling to details?

I'm not creating more division. Talking about the different Armenian cultures does not create more division. It simply illustrates the cultural mosaic that is Armenian culture. I'm sorry you find diversity to be equivalent to "division". (It sounds like an American labeling multiculturalism as "racism" or "segregation".)

#43 Armenak

Armenak

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:31 PM

Shahan, you're so wrong here.

The hatred of minority immigrants is common everywhere. Ask the Polish in Ireland and the United Kingdom, the Turks in Germany, the Lebanese in Australia, and so on.

Shahan, you're from L.A., so I'm sure you've come across some of the "Russian-Armenians" who moved here in the 1940s. Haven't they integrated nicely?

#44 Armenak

Armenak

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:36 PM

QUOTE(Shahan Araradian @ Apr 14 2007, 06:30 PM) View Post

Why aren't they getting along with Mexican-Americans in L.A.?

This was my favorite from you. Nevermind the fact that the Mexican-Americans are also immigrants to the United States (like any other ethnic group), the Mexican-American community, just like the Armenian-American community has layers. Many of the more recent immigrants are difficult to get along with. And these same Mexican-American immigrants don't get along with blacks, whites and Asians in virtually every high school in Los Angeles County.

In fact I have noticed that at times the Mexican-Americans do not get along with each other, like some Armenians. Internal conflict.

#45 Shahan Araradian

Shahan Araradian

    նէմէսիս

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:46 PM

QUOTE(Armenak @ Apr 14 2007, 08:31 PM) View Post

Shahan, you're so wrong here.

The hatred of minority immigrants is common everywhere. Ask the Polish in Ireland and the United Kingdom, the Turks in Germany, the Lebanese in Australia, and so on.

Shahan, you're from L.A., so I'm sure you've come across some of the "Russian-Armenians" who moved here in the 1940s. Haven't they integrated nicely?

Armenak, again, I'm not generalizing to all Russian Armenians. I'm talking about the 30% who are an obvious problem, and it's not only in L.A (L.A. is the most obvious due to their large numbers). I've had the privilege to work with some respectable and intelligent Russian Armenians raised in L.A. as well as in Armenia. I've also seen incredibly respectable and intelligent Russian Armenians from Armenia transform into this "unwanted" kind (unwanted by society) upon immigrating to the U.S. and hanging out with the "unwanted" kind...

Hatred of minorities is not the norm, though, as you claim. Why weren't Armenians hated in Iran to the extent that the locals would stab them? in Lebanon? in Syria? in the U.S.? in Canada? in France? Why is the problem is persistent across the Russian Armenians?

The only other place Armenians were hated enough such that the locals stabbed them was in the Ottoman Empire. And Ara Baliozian (see his corner) provides some explanations as to why that happened. And Armenians (especially the "revolutionaries") weren't at all "innocent" -- though the bulk of the Ottoman Armenian population was innocent.

What happens with nationalism (be it in Russia, in the Ottoman Empire, or among Armenians) is that even though 10% of the population might be a threat to the people of the host country, the entire population is seen as a threat.

The Armenian "revolutionaries" (maybe 5% of the Armenian population) were making a bunch of noise in Istanbul for Armenian rights and making grandiose threats. Who paid the price? The Ottoman Armenians in the heart of Western Armenia.

These Russian Armenian "gangsters" (maybe 20% of the Russian Armenians, and 5% of all Armenians) are making a bunch of noise and attracting bad attention. Guess who pays the price again?

So what are the rest of Armenians doing? A lot of the new generation just stays away from being Armenian.

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 14 April 2007 - 07:51 PM.


#46 Shahan Araradian

Shahan Araradian

    նէմէսիս

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 14 April 2007 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE(Armenak @ Apr 14 2007, 08:36 PM) View Post

This was my favorite from you. Nevermind the fact that the Mexican-Americans are also immigrants to the United States (like any other ethnic group), the Mexican-American community, just like the Armenian-American community has layers. Many of the more recent immigrants are difficult to get along with. And these same Mexican-American immigrants don't get along with blacks, whites and Asians in virtually every high school in Los Angeles County.

In fact I have noticed that at times the Mexican-Americans do not get along with each other, like some Armenians. Internal conflict.

OK. Try to reflect on this: Why don't you see Iranian-Armenians or Western-Armenians picking fights with this "layer" of the Mexican-American community?

You need to at least acknowledge that there is a problem in order to be able to try to solve it.

#47 Zartonk

Zartonk

    Magnificent!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,764 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Մարդկության ու ճշմարտության միջև

Posted 14 April 2007 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE
The real question is, why do Russians hate Russian Armenians?Why aren't they getting along with Mexican-Americans in L.A.?


Because generally criminals and ethnic gangs don't coexist too well.


Besides, granted, the migrant Armenians might not have an exemplary image, but is that the only side of the matter to be discussed? Is is just the criminality of the minority that leads to such actions? I am certainly not the one to label all homicides hate crimes, but this is a post-Soviet society. Not all is well, I'm sure.




QUOTE
I'm sorry you find diversity to be equivalent to "division". (It sounds like an American labeling multiculturalism as "racism" or "segregation".)


I do not see "diversity" and division as equal. Judging by your metaphor, you have obviously misunderstood.

When for a lack of a better term I say division, I mean the idiotic breach caused by the pompous and holier than thou attitude with which every -read again, EVERY- single Armenian faction views and treats the other.

What in the world is the purpose of that? How does that improve our situation, our problems?


QUOTE
Talking about reality often hurts, especially if it's not your ideal reality.


As I have said before, I am well aware of the reality. Yet in my opinion, I think it is a mistake to confuse the real Us and Them (lawful members of a diaspora versus criminal individuals that exist in any given community) with Us the Armenians versus them the Armenians. The truth IS out, but such labeling doesn't solve a thing.

Now lets think: Why is crime widespread in ex-Soviet republics, esp. the RoA?



#48 Shahan Araradian

Shahan Araradian

    նէմէսիս

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 14 April 2007 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 09:37 PM) View Post

When for a lack of a better term I say division, I mean the idiotic breach caused by the pompous and holier than thou attitude with which every -read again, EVERY- single Armenian faction views and treats the other.

There is no holier than thou here. You shouldn't find any offense when I directly refer to a particular segment of the Armenian community. In this case, it is a sizeable fraction of the Russian Armenian community (I think around 25%). In other discussions, we have talked about community segments by political party, e.g. the ARF. This is no different. These segments in the community exist, and in order to intelligently talk about the community, you can't disregard these segments but must refer to them.

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 09:37 PM) View Post

What in the world is the purpose of that? How does that improve our situation, our problems?

In order to solve a problem, you must first learn what the the problem is. Where is the problem? Who is part of the problem? Who is part of the solution? Why does the problem exist? Who is the problem affecting?

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 09:37 PM) View Post

As I have said before, I am well aware of the reality. Yet in my opinion, I think it is a mistake to confuse the real Us and Them (lawful members of a diaspora versus criminal individuals that exist in any given community) with Us the Armenians versus them the Armenians. The truth IS out, but such labeling doesn't solve a thing.

Same response as above. You shouldn't find offense in referring to a particular segment of the Armenian community. Many Diasporan Armenian communities have changed drastically in demographics in the last 15 years. Los Angeles is probably the one that's experienced the most change, and I have experienced first hand a portion of that.

To place all Armenians into one group and label them all Armenians does not represent the reality of diverse Armenian communities such as the one in Los Angeles. You won't be able to understand the dynamics of an Armenian community by not referring to various Armenian cultures/backgrounds and various Armenian community and political organizations.

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 09:37 PM) View Post

Now lets think: Why is crime widespread in ex-Soviet republics, esp. the RoA?

That is a very good question that needs discussion. Let's add another question. Why aren't Armenians from the RoA involved in Armenian community organizations in the Diaspora in proportion to their numbers? What do we need to do to change this situation, so that they are more involved in the community, and to have positive role models?

Edited by Shahan Araradian, 14 April 2007 - 10:38 PM.


#49 Error 404

Error 404

    ERROR 404

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 12:24 AM

If they are "russian" armenians what type of armenian are you Shahen? Turkish? Arabic?

WTF man? An armenian is an armenian. Every nation has criminals and thugs. Why are you discriminating people from your own nationality?

Haven't you seen black gangs or mexican gangs? Or are you gonna tell me that all mexicans are gangsters or all blacks are thiefs?

I think you should stop hating and labling people and be more tolerant.

#50 Shahan Araradian

Shahan Araradian

    նէմէսիս

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 704 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 15 April 2007 - 12:57 AM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Apr 15 2007, 01:24 AM) View Post

If they are "russian" armenians what type of armenian are you Shahen? Turkish? Arabic?

I am actually a Western Armenian from Lebanon.

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Apr 15 2007, 01:24 AM) View Post

WTF man? An armenian is an armenian. Every nation has criminals and thugs. Why are you discriminating people from your own nationality?

There are sub-cultures, and talking about them doesn't mean I'm discriminating. For example, there are French Quebecois and French from France. Talking about each doesn't mean to be discriminating one. The evolution of French history led to French people living in the new world to develop a separate culture and language than mainland France. Now the culture is not entirely different than the one in France, but there are some differences, e.g. in the usage of the language and culturally. Same goes with Western Armenians, Russian Armenians, and Iranian-Armenians. To be talking about each in its own light does not mean one is "discriminating"; it simply means he's talking about each in its own light.

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Apr 15 2007, 01:24 AM) View Post

Haven't you seen black gangs or mexican gangs? Or are you gonna tell me that all mexicans are gangsters or all blacks are thiefs?

No. And if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I've been careful to point out that I'm not generalizing to all Russian Armenians, but to around a quarter of them. That's my estimate of the numbers.

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Apr 15 2007, 01:24 AM) View Post

I think you should stop hating and labling people and be more tolerant.

I think you should learn to read and understand another person's writings. This isn't about "hating"; this is about addressing problems of the Armenian community. No one should be expected to "tolerate" mediocrity.

#51 Error 404

Error 404

    ERROR 404

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 01:06 AM

I think YOU SHOULD STOP USING THE TERM "RUSSIAN ARMENIAN"

#52 Error 404

Error 404

    ERROR 404

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 881 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 01:28 AM

QUOTE(Zartonk @ Apr 14 2007, 05:22 PM) View Post

The domestic culture of a diaspora is an inevitable adaptation to the dwelling place. It is a result of native culture -which could develop the minority culture either by the means of complementary similarity or contrasting difference- and socio-economic conditions.

Certainly there will be differences between the way Armenians from X and Armenians from Y behave. We all know this. We all see this as well.

Yet I must say Shahan, diminishing the graveness and the immorality of a murder based merely on their origin of the victim a massive, massive assumption. Was the 17 year old really killed because he was a token criminal Eastern/Russian/"Stantsi" Armenian, or because he was Armenian? Does the misbehavior of a ANY group justify ANY such crime?

My friend, your view of the "Russianized Armenian" is a sweeping stereotype, and hints to an unhealthy perspective (and just for the record, I am not from Hayastan or Russia.)

You mention the historic cause of the great schism of Armenians. You say that we were divided, as indeed we were.

Why, then, reemphasize this division and this gap? Why, thence, create even more division?

Do we not relate because of a common denominator? Why cling to details?


Amen brother!


#53 Harut

Harut

    Վերնագիր

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:հորիզոն...
  • Interests:uninterested...

Posted 15 April 2007 - 02:04 AM

shahan, the reason a lot of hayastancis don't get along with certain [bully] layers of other ethnic groups is that hayastancis, unlike certain other "types" of armenians are not pussified and don't take shit from anyone...

i still think that it's all about jelousy... tongue.gif

#54 Accelerated

Accelerated

    eh?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,110 posts
  • Location:Subaru Impreza WRX Sti
  • Interests:always changing

Posted 15 April 2007 - 03:17 AM

haha, apres Harut! Tsav@t tanem!

#55 Nor Hayastan

Nor Hayastan

    Նոր Հայաստ

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glendale, CA (USA)
  • Interests:Հայերեն Լեզուն և Թեննիս

Posted 15 April 2007 - 04:01 AM

QUOTE(Armenak @ Apr 14 2007, 08:31 PM) View Post

Shahan, you're so wrong here.

The hatred of minority immigrants is common everywhere. Ask the Polish in Ireland and the United Kingdom, the Turks in Germany, the Lebanese in Australia, and so on.

Shahan, you're from L.A., so I'm sure you've come across some of the "Russian-Armenians" who moved here in the 1940s. Haven't they integrated nicely?


It's ok Armenak jan, some people won't change even if you prove to them that your right. It's just a matter of life sad.gif Unfortunately, a lot of Armenians put differences between one another, and create unjust stereotypes. You tell someone he is Hayastanci, and he says no... I'm Parskahay/Beirutahay/Polsahay/ whatever-hay lol

This is such a thing already spread out throughout the masses, and I think we need a big movement here in order to get such an idea across. Unfortunately, I don't think such a movement is going to happen, and Armenians will almost certainly put themselves within their "group." Then this will spill over as each "group" will only hang out with other "group" members (e.g. Parskahay's with Parskahay's, etc...), and a braoder national identity will be diminished because of this lack of unity as one, and only 1 type of Armenian - the Hayastanci smile.gif

In Shahan's book, I am defined as an "Amerika-Hay." But I don't consider myself as one smile.gif I consider myself Hayastanci, just like I do everyone else within this forum, because we all have only 1 Armenia, and we are all part of it directly, therefore we are defined in my book as ARMENIAns or HAYASTANcis smile.gif

Hima haskacar indz Shahan jan? wink.gif

Attached Files



#56 AK-47

AK-47

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 624 posts
  • Location:Western Hemisphere, Earth
  • Interests:Armenian history, music, sports, politics...the usual stuff.

Posted 15 April 2007 - 10:45 AM

Shahan is not dividing Armenians guys, there is nothing bad in what he is saying. Calling someone a Russian Armenian won't divide Armenians, it merely implies that he is from Russia. Since our diaspora is bigger than the fatherland's population and since a fatherland did not exits for decades, we have adopted such terms to know where each Armenian is from. It's the same for the Jews...Ukrainian-Jew, Polish-Jew, French-Jew etc. (although judaism is a religion...)

And every Armenian that comes from a specific country has obviously developped differently and adopted or been influenced by their host country's culture. Hayastanci does not imply Armenian, Hayastanci means someone from the RoA. Generally, Hayastanci may be used to talk about Russian Armenians as well, although I am not sure why it has evolved that way. Hye = Armenian.

#57 hosank

hosank

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 397 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 02:18 PM

the reality is that in russia, armenians are killed not because they are mafiosos, tho some are, but many, because they are mistaken for other caucasians, like azeris, chechens or central asians..that is why they get killed

#58 Harut

Harut

    Վերնագիր

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:հորիզոն...
  • Interests:uninterested...

Posted 15 April 2007 - 02:43 PM

QUOTE(hosank @ Apr 15 2007, 01:18 PM) View Post

the reality is that in russia, armenians are killed not because they are mafiosos, tho some are, but many, because they are mistaken for other caucasians, like azeris, chechens or central asians..that is why they get killed


from what you say one would think that russians are out there to kill chechens or azeris (and from your tone, one would think that that's a justifiable cause), but since armenians look like them, they also unfortunately get killed...

no... that's a premier bull shit... russians are not out there to kill chechens or azeris... russians are out there to kill caucasians (for the same exact reason that majorities kill any ethnic, religous, racial, etc. manorities anywhere in this world), which also includes armenians...

#59 gamavor

gamavor

    -= Nobility =-

  • Nobility
  • 4,862 posts
  • Location:Houston, TX

Posted 15 April 2007 - 03:35 PM

Armenian-Russian friendship is a myth. There is no such thing, except the "friendship" between Armenian men and Russian women. smile.gif It is rather political convenience. They need us as a buffer with Turkey and Iran, and as a platzdarm to keep Caucasus in their control in case the situation goes out of their hand completely.

#60 Armenak

Armenak

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 15 April 2007 - 03:45 PM

Let's not generalize!

Gamavor, believe me, there is Armenian-Russian friendship. There are Russians who are grateful to the Armenians. These "skinhead" losers are a disgrace to their Soviet predecessors.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users