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#41 Arpa

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 09:49 AM

QUOTE(kakachik77 @ Jan 19 2005, 06:27 AM
[cool.gif
Our literature is full of references to "Kill your father and mother if they abandon our religion"[/B] as in Raffi's "Samvel"; Vartan Mamikonian led an army of only 60,000 people straight to death to prove that we don't JUST give up Sorry for the rant.

[/quote]
Why must we always die for our convictions?
Can we learn to live?
As to Raffi's Samvel. That is a parody, a tongue in cheek sarcasm.
Is that not the Same Raffi who advocated to "Build at least one fortress for every 10 churches"?

#42 Nakharar

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 09:54 AM

Exceptions do not make the rule. The only other country that comes to mind is Wales, maybe because of they are the heirs to William Gladstone and Lloyd George and their naive Christian gullibility.

#43 Armat

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 09:55 AM

Kakachik,Siamanto
It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers

#44 Stormig

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 09:57 AM

Cheers, Domino and Ani - so eloquent of you. smile.gif

#45 DominO

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 10:00 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 19 2005, 10:54 AM)
Exceptions do not make the rule. The only other country that comes to mind is Wales, maybe because of they are the heirs to William Gladstone and Lloyd George and their naive Christian gullibility.


I disagree, countries have more to lose by recognising it, politically speaking, non-recognition has more advantages.

#46 Med

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Armat @ Jan 19 2005, 05:55 PM)
Kakachik,Siamanto
It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers


I doubt that would be the case. Any assertion of Armenian identity will most probably be surpressed especially if they became an Armenian enclave/satellite in a Turkish sea. They only have a chance if they join their brethren in Istanbul. There they will be safe from repercussions and under the protection of the foreign establishment there.

#47 Arpa

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (Armat @ Jan 19 2005, 03:55 PM)
Kakachik,Siamanto
It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers


Well said Armat!
You took my words. But I frogive you. smile.gif smile.gif
Can we cut this religious crap and be pragmatic and politically expedient?
The latest weapon in the Turkish arsenal is that "we sided with the Russians", that we were a virtual "fifth column". Can we create a "fifth column" (be they islamized Hamshens or kurdified Armeninas)right in their very heart?
Oh no!!
Bernis karmir piper!
After all they are "unclean/ soiled" and sacriligious! wink.gif

#48 Nakharar

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 10:10 AM

QUOTE (Domino @ Jan 19 2005, 05:00 PM)
I disagree, countries have more to lose by recognising it, politically speaking, non-recognition has more advantages.


I don't see how, but I hope you are right. You are too optimistic in my opinion.

#49 DominO

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 10:17 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 19 2005, 11:10 AM)
I don't see how, but I hope you are right. You are too optimistic in my opinion.


I can provide many evidences to support my position, can you do the same with yours.

If your position was to be true, this would be even truer for the Europeans, but still the recognition of the genocide was not a EU condition for Turkeys accessions. And every time the genocide recognition is on the table in a country, it is always ministers, and not depuitees that are majoritarly against its recognitions, and nearly everytime, the leading head of the no side is the minister of foreign affairs, and the prime minister is too coward to say anything.

In Canada, the prime minister and minister of justice were even not present during the vote.

In France, something very similar happened.

#50 Nakharar

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 10:34 AM

The MPs can afford to be idealistic, because they do not have to directly deal with Turkey unlike cabinet ministers who are in a executive position. Of course I know that genocide recognition isn't and never will be part of Turkey's accession talks. I deal with the Copenhague criteria and the common aquis every day in my office. The Europeans know about Turkey's insecurity and what better way is there than to play on these fears. But it will become an issue if European countries decide to hold referenda on Turkey's entry into the EU and this will be a major stickingpoint.

#51 Arpa

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 09:20 AM

We are Christians. Right?
The "first" ones for that. At least that is what we like to think.
But do we really practice?
In Islam apostasy, wandering out of the fold is a death sentence, literally.
Here is what the founder of our faith and religion has to say about the subject.
Above we saw the parable of the Prodigal Son. I am sure many also read the parable leading to that story, namely the one about the Lost Sheep.
This time read verses/hamars 1 to 7.
Could it be that those "lost sheep" got lost running away from the "wolf", or for that matter having suckled at the "wolf's" teat? Remus and Romulus suckled at the wolf's teat too, yet they founded the mighty Roman Empire, today known as Italy. Of course that was another wolf, not the "grey" one we had to deal with. The "wolf" we had to deal with should have been bitten to death at the teat when we had the teeth.

Below the Armenian version, You can also see it in English at the site below.
Pray tell where in the Christian literature it is prescribed to condemn and forget the "Lost Sheep"?
If we are Christians as many of us would aver then let us behave so.
This does not suggest that we should forsake and abandon the remaining 99 chasing the lost 1.



15 Եւ բոլոր մաքսաւորներն ու մեղաւորները նրա մօտն էին, որպէսզի լսեն նրան։ 2Փարիսեցիներն ու օրէնսգէտները տրտնջում էին եւ ասում. «Ինչո՞ւ է սա ընդունում մեղաւորներին եւ ուտում նրանց հետ»։ 3Յիսուս նրանց այս առակն ասաց. 4«Ձեզնից ո՞վ է այն մարդը, որ, երբ հարիւր ոչխար ունենայ եւ կորցնի նրանցից մէկը, արօտավայրում չի թողնի իննսունիննին եւ չի գնայ կորածի յետեւից, մինչեւ որ այն գտնի։ 5Եւ երբ այն գտնի, կը դնի այն իր ուսերի վրայ խնդութեամբ 6եւ կը գնայ տուն, կը կանչի բարեկամներին եւ հարեւաններին ու նրանց կ՚ասի. ուրախացէ՛ք ինձ հետ, որովհետեւ գտայ իմ կորած ոչխարը։ 7Ասում եմ ձեզ, որ այսպէս ուրախութիւն կը լինի երկնքում մի մեղաւորի համար, որն ապաշխարում է, քան իննսունինը արդարների համար, որոնց ապաշխարութիւն պէտք չէ։

Refer to above site to see the English/King James version..

#52 Med

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 03:03 PM

From the National Geographic, June 1978:

I had come here on a spring afternoon in the company of an Armenian priest from Istanbul, a quiet man of middle age. For him it was an act of faith, and a sadness. His people had been gone six decades.
We watched Kurdish children play in the dirt road. Other people, he said, taken over many Armenian villages – Kurds here, Turks elsewhere. His face was impassive: Land is to be used, people must live.
Leaving the stricken church, he touched hand to heart. Such churches were common in Turkey, he murmured, prey to the elements and vandals, ruins of a civilization. There were two in the nearby city of Malatya. We would soon be going to Malatya.
Another sorrow lay deep. I felt it though I am an odar – foreigner, in the Armenian language. The priest gripped my arm.
“Armenians are still being driven from remote villages,” he said grimly. “It is the old hatred. Sometimes a young girl is abducted, or a husband killed. They cannot bear to stay on their land after that. They make their way to the patriarchate in Istanbul. We give them shelter and find them homes.”
I looked out to the distant Euphrates, not wanting to hear such agony. The river was a glinting ribbon on its timeless run to Mesopotamia. The priest spoke again.
“Once Armenians were heavily concentrated in eastern Turkey. Only a few remain. In all the interior, only three churches are working. Malatya has none. But some of my flock are there, and much time has passed since my last visit. Tonight we will meet in a house.” He smiled for the first time. “You shall see the joy of Armenians renewing their faith.”
A few hours later, after darkness fell, the city’s few Armenian families filled a small living room to overflowing. The priest and his deacon, richly robbed, led them in prayer and song in the dim glow of a ceiling light, while incense smoldered.
It was, I thought, as if a band of early Christians had gathered furtively in a cave to worship. Children were baptized, Communion given. One aged, failing woman, scarf on head, knelt with tears of happiness falling. Earlier she had despaired.
I sat with her afterward. “We are sheep without the shepherd,” she said. “At last the shepherd came – and he forgave me.”
Forgave?
She had broken the pre-Communion fast. Faint with hunger, she had eaten a handful of raisins. In torment she had approached the priest, confessed, and been absolved. I saw no greater joy that night.
The old fear was present too. As we left a girl stopped me. “Do not forget us,” she pleaded softly. “We are alone here. We are always afraid that something will happen to cause trouble.”

#53 skhara

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 10:15 PM

QUOTE
Recognising the genocide, as tool againt Turkey, is as, or even more disgusting as denying it. The genocide is not a war tool.


Nothing wrong with the "enemy of my enemy is my friend philosophy". And yes European countries recongnised it for political purposes. Turks should be discredited, attacked, disadvantaged, and disarmed, and it doesn't matter how it happens. They are the enemy.

And why are there so many people obssessed with 'Turkish recognition'? They're still the enemy and not just to Armenians, the fact that they fully back the Chechens, Azeris, and Balkan muslims, says it all.

Edited by skhara, 21 January 2005 - 10:15 PM.


#54 Siamanto

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 06:29 PM

QUOTE (Armat @ Jan 19 2005, 09:55 AM)
Kakachik,Siamanto
It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers

Armat,
As I have already said, I don't have a philosophical issue with the fact that some may or would welcome the Hamshens as Armenian CITIZENS. I simply doubt that I may or will accept them as ETHNIC Armenians!
In any case, the reasons you have mentioned would not considered as "generosity:" I'm afraid that you're being a bit too "generous" towards your views! smile.gif
Your are simply putting on a "rational" manager hat who's goal is to grow and succeed. It 's true that it's an accepted "best practice" of resource management, but it is also true that it may fail and it does fail in most unusual situations - such as the one discussed here.

Please, meet and welcome some of your future hayrenagits! smile.gif They certainly don't belong in my vision of the Armenian!

Hamshen Girls

Edited by Siamanto, 22 January 2005 - 07:21 PM.


#55 Siamanto

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE (skhara @ Jan 21 2005, 10:15 PM)
Nothing wrong with the "enemy of my enemy is my friend philosophy".  And yes European countries recongnised it for political purposes.  Turks should be discredited, attacked, disadvantaged, and disarmed, and it doesn't matter how it happens.  They are the enemy.

And why are there so many people obssessed with 'Turkish recognition'? They're still the enemy and not just to Armenians, the fact that they fully back the Chechens, Azeris, and Balkan muslims, says it all.

I agree with both statements!
I would simply add that surprisingly - or maybe, not so surprisingly - those who preach the merits of "RealPolitik" and/or "Political Objectivity" do so ONLY when the Armenian Nation's Policies SHOULD be criticized!

#56 Dave

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:30 PM

I think we can count them as Armenians... If I'm not mistaken, I think there are Muslims in Georgia, counted as ethnic Georgians, so why shouldn't we seperate Hamshen Armenians?

If Hamshen lands were a part of Armenia, a Hamshen wouldn't have been any different from an Armenian (except their religion, of course).

Here is a Turkish site about Hamshens.
http://www.hemsinli.com/

Do you think that the prime minister of Turkey (Recep Tayip Erdogan) has Armenian origins? He was born in Rize.

Edited by Dave, 22 January 2005 - 10:40 PM.


#57 skhara

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 10:31 AM

QUOTE (Dave @ Jan 22 2005, 10:30 PM)
I think we can count them as Armenians... If I'm not mistaken, I think there are Muslims in Georgia, counted as ethnic Georgians, so why shouldn't we seperate Hamshen Armenians?



If I'm not mistaken, they don't count as ethnic Georgians. They count as Adjarians.

#58 Arpa

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (Dave @ Jan 23 2005, 04:30 AM)
Here is a Turkish site about Hamshens.
http://www.hemsinli.com/

MosJan,
Some time ago you had expresed interest in the park-a-bzuk, bagpipe of the Hamshens.
I don't want to promote the site as I am not sure whether it is Armenian or Turkish. When you open it click on "Tulum Dinle" and get an earful.

#59 Karen

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 05:53 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jan 23 2005, 12:25 PM)
MosJan,
Some time ago you had expresed interest in the park-a-bzuk, bagpipe of the Hamshens.
I don't want to promote the site as I am not sure whether it is Armenian or Turkish. When you open it click on "Tulum Dinle" and get an earful.


Forget about hemsinli.com It's a turkish propaganda vehicle, don't be confused. It's designed for those who discover their past to fall into a trap and be brainwashed that they are mountain turks and other crap. The only true armenian-hemsin site is http://www.yaylayolu.info It is owned by one moslem hemsin, who accepted armenian name and last name upon immigration to Germany.

#60 kakachik77

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 19 2005, 09:01 AM)
Excellent post Arpa! Rather concentrating on imaginary Armenians in Turkey why don't we concentrate on real, tangible Armenians in the Diaspora who consider being an Armenian as a burden. Some people are really changing the subject, because they do not want to look the unpleasant truth in the face.


I agree, imaginary Armenians they ARE for sure....couple of Turks found a way to get a political asylum in Germany by claiming they are suppressed Armenians, and we are immediately taking them seriously.




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