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#1 Arpa

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 11:17 AM

SONS OF THE ARMENIAN NATION WHO "TURNED INTO" KURDS AND TURKS

Azg/arm
18 Jan 05

It was a taboo till recently to write of the Armenians who were
forcibly turned into Turks and Kurds during the Ottoman reign. Most of
them, living today in Western Europe, Western Armenia and Cilicia
(modern-day Turkey), are going through a revival of national
identification. After the Armenians of Hamshen, those from Sassoon,
Mush and Taron, who were forcibly converted into Islam,are especially
easy to talk with about their past and present. They try to return to
the bosom of their nation by overcoming their "guise", the names and
surnames, and to fight for their rights and to recover the historic
legacy of their forefathers massacred by the Turks.

One can meet those Armenians returning to their roots in Germany as
well as in Armenia especially after the war in Iraq and the vents at
the Turkish border. Some "Kurdish" Armenians fought in the ranks of
the PKK (Kurdish Workers' Party) and got disappointed after Ojalan's
capture and left for Germany where they could find a wide field for
political and national activity. They settled in Frankfurt, Wiesbaden,
Stuttgart, Mainz and elsewhere.

"I was born in Karmir Khach (Kzl Akhach) village of Taron. We shunned
the Armenian Genocide as we accepted Islam feigningly and were
Kurdish-speaking. My father and brother enrolled in the PKK to fight
against Turkish fascism, they were imprisoned and tortured numerous
times. I've been studying andworking here in Germany for a long time
and am in touch with the Armenian communityand the progressive
forces. But in Western Armenia, especially in originally Armenian
Vardo town, which was stricken by an earthquake in 60s and where my
relatives live, human rights violations are rampant", Simon Kostanian
(Sardet Kosdun), who regained his Armenian identity today, tells.

Razmik Hakobian (Nureddin Yagub) from one of Cilicia villages was a
PKK warrior but was arrested and jailed in one of Ankara's horrific
prisons. He is a writer and a film director who is planning to shoot a
film about the life of Diaspora Armenians.

"My parents concealed our identity particularly because being an
Armenian was an unforgettable affront in Adiamani where I am coming
from. Despite this, many "Kurdish" and "Turkish" Armenians were called
"gyavur". The film I am trying to shoot is about an Armenian outcast
and also is an odyssey of a Western Armenians who survived the
Genocide. I shall realize my plans if I find necessary support in
Armenia and by the help of our confederates in WesternEurope", Razmik
tells.

The number of Armenians, who only now discover their identity, above
all in Sassoon and Mush, amounts to thousands.

"There are around 1000 Armenians in Mush. The Turkish government has
forgotten us for a while, as there are the Kurds to deal with. The
sons of the Kurdish people say sorry for their fathers' deeds who were
killing Armenians together with the Turks", Armen from Mush says.

By Hamo Moskofian in Wiesbaden-Marseilles

Edited by Arpa, 18 January 2005 - 09:31 PM.

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#2 Stormig

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 11:55 AM

Again, the myth of alleged Kurdish remorse, propagated through selective reporting. rolleyes.gif

#3 kakachik77

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 12:02 PM

so believe or not to believe???

#4 Nakharar

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 12:36 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 06:55 PM)
Again, the myth of alleged Kurdish remorse, propagated through selective reporting. rolleyes.gif


Remorse is better than no remorse. I don't think anyone of us has heared about Turkish remorse have we? But then you are still basking in your vainglory.

Edited by Nakharar, 19 January 2005 - 07:01 AM.


#5 Stormig

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 18 2005, 06:36 PM)
Remorse is better than no remorse.

Knock knock. Truth vs. myth. rolleyes.gif

#6 Nakharar

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:12 PM

To you perhaps. It doesn't matter to me if it comes from your best "friends" the Kurds.

#7 Stormig

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:46 PM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 18 2005, 07:12 PM)
To you perhaps. It doesn't matter to me if it comes from your best "friends" the Kurds.

Look here. Unlike you or that snug reporter, I have "field experience" and know exactly what I'm talking about, aight? rolleyes.gif

#8 ED

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:52 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 11:46 AM)
Look here. Unlike you or that snug reporter, I have "field experience" and know exactly what I'm talking about, aight? rolleyes.gif



Stormig what are you up to!?
are you trying to convince us your not talking to your self here?

#9 Nakharar

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:58 PM

I was thinking of that too. No reference whatsoever. More like a gloss over experience.

#10 ED

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 18 2005, 11:58 AM)
I was thinking of that too. No reference whatsoever. More like a gloss over experience.



aient that special smile.gif

#11 Med

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 07:55 PM)
Again, the myth of alleged Kurdish remorse, propagated through selective reporting. rolleyes.gif


You get a rash whenever the word Kurd is mentioned. Strange indeed. wink.gif

#12 Siamanto

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 11:25 PM

QUOTE (kakachik77 @ Jan 18 2005, 12:02 PM)
so believe or not to believe???


In last month's issue of "Nouvelles d'Armenie" there was a long article - with many pictures - about the Hamshens. I will scan some of the pictures when I have time. They really look Jurkish! I have - and probably will always have - problems calling them "Armenians!" In any case, not until every fiber of any Jurkish mindset in them is washed away!

Would you consider a cousin named Mehmet Halacoglu?

PS. I have an excellent mattress, so need for a "halac!!!" smile.gif

Edited by Siamanto, 18 January 2005 - 11:26 PM.


#13 Siamanto

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 11:36 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 01:08 PM)
Knock knock.

Mama said not to open the door to (gray) wolves!
Or was it "Mama said to..." smile.gif



QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 01:08 PM)
Truth vs. myth. rolleyes.gif

The essence of the Jurkish Nation and Identity are based on myths! What a Hypocrisy!




QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 01:46 PM)
Look here.

And the mask falls uncovering the true Jurkish nature!!! smile.gif

#14 Armat

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:06 AM

This is rather ironic Siamanto that the Jews can accept everyone who even remotely thinks they are Jews and yet some of us have difficulty accepting Hamshens as Armenians. Yes we had this topic revolving around here but lets face it we are backward and tribal when comes to acceptance even amongst us.
I met a true Hamshen in Boston who spoke Armenian with a strong dialect but nevertheless I accepted him as Armenian and that made him happy and probably steered him closer to his true linage however had I brushed him off he would of identified with the Turks more. So much what we think and feel identified with is emotionally based. Anyway I just wanted to say few words.

Edited by Armat, 19 January 2005 - 12:08 AM.

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#15 Siamanto

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:24 AM

QUOTE (Armat @ Jan 19 2005, 12:06 AM)
This is rather ironic Siamanto that the Jews can accept everyone who even remotely thinks they are Jews and yet some of us have difficulty accepting Hamshens as Armenians. Yes we had this topic revolving around here but lets face it we are backward and tribal when comes to acceptance even amongst us.
I met a true Hamshen in Boston who spoke Armenian with a strong dialect but nevertheless I accepted him as Armenian and that made him happy and probably steered him closer to his true linage however had I brushed him off he would of identified with the Turks more. So much what we think and feel identified with is emotionally based. Anyway I just wanted to say few words.

Armat,
I totally agree with every word you have said and was aware of it! You know me enough to tell that I'm sincere!
But I am who I am and we are who we are! I have already made peace with myself and I can cohabitate with my "shortcomings???"

PS
I will post some of the pictures that I've seen and would like to see how others will react!

Edited by Siamanto, 19 January 2005 - 12:31 AM.


#16 kakachik77

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:27 AM

Armat, allow me to disagree. Firstly, it's wrong to compare Judaism with being Armenian mainly because the first is a religion and the second a nationality. Of course, we Armenians happen to use one of national identifications as our religion because it is very unique and important to our story of survival throughout centuries. Our literature is full of references to "Kill your father and mother if they abandon our religion" as in Raffi's "Samvel"; Vartan Mamikonian led an army of only 60,000 people straight to death to prove that we don't JUST give up who we are. And lastly, my grand grandmother walked that ***ing dessert, lost all her four kids to hunger and thirst on the way , lost everybody but chose to stay ARMENIAN, she remarried in Soviet Armenia and created a second Armenian (yes, Christian) family. To me being Armenian is about SURVIVAL and not surrender, that's our national character and that's what I am going to teach my kids when they are learning about life, "the story of our people, and that we just don't give up". Now, the story of Hamshen to me belongs to a story of totally another nationality.
Sorry for the rant.
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#17 Armat

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:46 AM

QUOTE (kakachik77 @ Jan 19 2005, 12:27 AM)
Armat, allow me to disagree. Firstly, it's wrong to compare Judaism with being Armenian mainly because the first is a religion and the second a nationality. Of course, we Armenians happen to use one of national identifications as our religion because it is very unique and important to our story of survival throughout centuries. Our literature is full of references to "Kill your father and mother if they abandon our religion" as in Raffi's "Samvel"; Vartan Mamikonian led an army of only 60,000 people straight to death to prove that we don't JUST give up who we are. And lastly, my grand grandmother walked that ***ing dessert, lost all her four kids to hunger and thirst on the way , lost everybody but chose to stay ARMENIAN, she remarried in Soviet Armenia and created a second Armenian (yes, Christian) family. To me being Armenian is about SURVIVAL and not surrender, that's our national character and that's what I am going to teach my kids when they are learning about life, "the story of our people, and that we just don't give up". Now, the story of Hamshen to me belongs to a story of totally another nationality.
Sorry for the rant.

Kakachik
I was thinking more in term of strength philosophically that is. Strong and confident people, nations can react generously meaning they have enough reservoirs of self-identity to accept their distant cousins as one of them. That is strong and that builds culture, economy since generous thinking has a ripple effect. The more we resist the deeper we sink.
Jewish comparison is valid since they accept each other to some degree even without any religious affiliation. Lot of Russian Jews who immigrated Israel and US were essentially atheists but still they got integrated into Israeli state.
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#18 Stormig

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:56 AM

QUOTE (Med @ Jan 18 2005, 09:37 PM)
You get a rash whenever the word Kurd is mentioned.  Strange indeed. wink.gif

At least I'm not dumbed-down. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
The
sons of the Kurdish people say sorry for their fathers' deeds who were
killing Armenians together with the Turks", Armen from Mush says.


But that shouldn't matter since according to the forum mods there are multiple personalities running around.

#19 Stormig

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:59 AM

BTW, Siamanto, I am surprised your head doesn't send you rolling sideways or backwards sometimes as often as bolting forward into a crash. smile.gif

#20 ED

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 01:05 AM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Jan 18 2005, 10:56 PM)
At least I'm not dumbed-down. rolleyes.gif
But that shouldn't matter since according to the forum mods there are multiple personalities running around.



Stormig I'm not limited on the question at hand, and I'm not just running around checking your multipal personalities,.....should I say more or you want to cut the crap?




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