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Kayseri, Pinarbasi, Gergeme


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#1 Gergeme

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 11:59 PM

I have been trying to find information about Pinarbasi and especially for the village called "Gergeme". Once Armenian and Greeks lived there. A georgious place used to be as I can remember. I have seen some pictures lately, totally deserted, no one lives anymore but the ancient houses still intact. The church at the top of the cliff, in the middle of a heavenly green acres and water all around seems to be still there.

The famous Architect "Mimar Sinan" lived there before he was converted to islam and went to Istanbul. The village is a thousand plus year old.

I am trying to find historical information, pictures, people who knows about the place. We want to do do something about it before it disappears from the face of the earth.

Any one who can direct me to the sites, organizations, libraries etc from where I can get information will be doing a great thing for the history.

Thanks

#2 Stormig

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 12:42 AM

I kiss you.
Sorry, I'm in a goofy mood from reading this: http://hyeforum.com/...ndpost&p=102926 smile.gif

Where are you from? It's best to visit the place itself and talk around a bit.

#3 Gergeme

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 05:18 PM

"to visit the place and talk about it?"..

I will be visiting in a few months, with an architect friend of mine. I only need historical data thru which I am planning to find out the "family" of original residents.

I don't really need "wise ..." comments, but simple but historically beneficial help.

Village is close the village where Elia Kazan's was born and spent his childhood.
Later it became a village of " "Buniyan", "Tezkiretu'l Bunyan" or "Bunyan-i Hamid " which was also detached from Sivas in 1331 and given to Kayseri independent sancak.

Anyone's help with some "input" shall greatly be appreciated.

Thanks

#4 Nakharar

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 09:57 AM

I will be going to the Cappadocia region this August through Kayseri. I have no knowledge or interest about Kayseri. I will use it as a transit point only. You have to ask local people or try to get as much information about it in relevant sites. People on this site won't be much help.

All the Best,

Daron

#5 vava

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 10:04 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jul 5 2004, 10:57 AM)
People on this site won't be much help.

I would disagree. I myself have no knowledge of this region in particular, nor it's history, however i'm sure some of our members would be quite willing to share their knowledge.

Gergeme, welcome to Hye Forum. I think you may have mistaken Stormig's humour for a wisecrack. (and I believe she meant Walk around a bit). Hope you stay and post while.

#6 Nakharar

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 12:05 PM

No, no don't get me wrong. I didn't mean it in a condescending way nor was I referring to anyone. I doubt that anyone could be of much help for his request. I would be delighted if I am proven wrong and that someone could provide him with all the necessary info.

#7 Arpa

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Gergeme @ Jul 4 2004, 05:59 AM)
I have been trying to find information about Pinarbasi and especially for the village called "Gergeme". Once Armenian and Greeks lived there. A georgious place used to be as I can remember. I have seen some pictures lately, totally deserted, no one lives anymore but the ancient houses still intact. The church at the top of the cliff, in the middle of a heavenly green acres and water all around seems to be still there.

Gergeme does not appear on any map. Pinarbasi and Bunyan do.
Is it now known by another name?
The internet yileds a few sites in reponse to "gergeme", one is in Turkish and it is in reference to Sinan, and it does corroborate the Armenian assertion that he had written to the Sultan to spare his family from displacement and harm. Of course the Turks will deny his Armenian origin just a the site ignores that aspect. The other sites are in Greek, I don't read Greek do you?
Armenian sourcses do not mention Gergeme except that it is known that Sinan was born in the town of Aghrnas (not much info about it either). I wonder if Aghrnas and Gregeme are somehow the same.
Btw. Are you Greek or Pontian?

#8 bellthecat

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 02:47 PM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jul 5 2004, 07:08 PM)
Gergeme does not appear on any map. Pinarbasi and Bunyan do.
Is it now known by another name?
The internet yileds a few sites in reponse to "gergeme", one is in Turkish and it is in reference to Sinan, and it does corroborate the Armenian assertion that he had written to the Sultan to spare his family from displacement and harm. Of course the Turks will deny his Armenian origin just a the site ignores that aspect. The other sites are in Greek, I don't read Greek do you?
Armenian sourcses do not mention Gergeme except that it is known that Sinan was born in the town of Aghrnas (not much info about it either). I wonder if Aghrnas and Gregeme are somehow the same.
Btw. Are you Greek or Pontian?

I thought that the generally accepted place of Sinans birth is now called Mimarsinan?

There is a place very near to it that was called, I thınk, Germir in the 19th century. Which sounds a bit like Gergeme. Sorry - I do not have access to any maps at the moment but I will check for the name on a 1930s map later tonight.

There is a big derelict Greek church in Germir, beside a clıff, so it probably was a Greek village (there were several in the region). I might visit it again this month.
My visit there last year was not pleasant - but even paradise would be an unpleasant place if you had to have a person like Thoth or his cousin with you.

#9 Stormig

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 03:39 AM

QUOTE (vava @ Jul 5 2004, 04:04 PM)
Gergeme, welcome to Hye Forum. I think you may have mistaken Stormig's humour for a wisecrack. (and I believe she meant Walk around a bit). Hope you stay and post while.

Actually, I did mean talk, but walk would be better or at the least complementary. Thank you, Vava. smile.gif And, yes, Gergeme, please don't be offended. smile.gif
BTW, is this Pinarbasi indeed in the province of Kayseri? Reason why I ask is because I thought it was part of Sivas, unless there are two.

Arpa, I expect Gergeme is not Greek but Turkish judging from his writing "sancak" and not "sanjak," and a coupla other things.

#10 Stormig

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 03:40 AM

Nakharar, anything of Armenian interest in Cappadocia?

#11 Nakharar

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 05:20 AM

I don't know. All I know is that they have underground churches and cities there from the early Christian period. I'm more interested in the landscape. The volcanic landscape seems spectacular.

#12 Nakharar

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 05:33 AM

Who's the lucky man? Man, do I envy him. biggrin.gif If only I had his good looks.

#13 vava

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 08:17 AM

Steve, please - it would suffice to say that you didn't enjoy your company on your last trip. Please don't get personal, it is getting a bit tired.

#14 Stormig

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 10:15 AM

QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jul 6 2004, 11:33 AM)
Who's the lucky man? Man, do I envy him. biggrin.gif If only I had his good looks.

Here: http://hyeforum.com/...=0 biggrin.gif

#15 Twilight Bark

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 11:30 AM

Translated from "Historical Names in Turkey" (in Turkish) by Bilge Umar:

Gergeme
A village in the Bunyan borough of the Kayseri province. Its newly fabricated name is Doganlar [1]. It is at the northwest corner of Bunyan, and at the foothills of Korumaz Mountain. We see that, just as the origin of the name Korumaz is Kor-uma [3], that is Summit-people (in the period of Hellenization, the -s suffix was added to make it a masculine name, producing Korumas), the origin of the name Gergeme is Karkama, that is Kar-ka-(u)-ma [3], which means "Summit-place-people". See Kar, -ka, -uma. [3]


Footnotes by TB:
[1] Doganlar is pronounced Doghanlar
[2] Bunyan is pronounced approximately as Biunyan
[3] Luwian

#16 Arpa

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Posted 07 July 2004 - 04:54 PM

The following is from Classical Armenian Digital Library on line.
As my mastery of the grabar is limited my poor attempt of translation follows.

Below is an excerpt from the above site in the Geography section.
It is one of the travelogues by Simeon Lehatsi. Lehatsi means Polish.
Siemon Lehats, aka Simeon Zamosatsi and Simeon Mikalyovski, 1584-1637. Writer, poet, traveler and dbir of the church. Was born to a family that had moved to Lehastan (Poland). Traveled in Europe and the ME during 1608-19. His travelogoues cover many cities in Europe and the esst such as Venice, Cairo, Jerusalem, Damascus, Aleppo et al. and last but not least, villages and towns of historical Armenia.

This is about Kesaria.
======
ԿԵՍԱՐԻԱ

Եւ անտի բազում գեղօրէիւք եւ լերամբք հասաք ի
Կեսարիա մայրաքաղաքն, որ ունի երկու պարիսպ, ներսի
եւ դրսի։ Կայր երկու եկեղեցի ներսն՝ Սուրբ
Աստուածածին եւ Սուրբ Սարգիս, բայց գետնափոր եւ
խաւարչտին տեղիս, որ մէրտիվանօք կ�իջնուն եւ ի
փայտից։ Եւ հինգհարիւր տուն հայ եւ աւելի կայր ի
նմա, փարթամ վաճառականք եւ խոճայք անվանի մեծատունք.
բայց աղքատն աւելի էր. այլ զանահաթ չունին, ամէնն
դերձակ եւ խաֆթանչիք են։ Ներսցիք հայնակ չի գիտեն,
միայն տաճկնակ, ֆարսի. իսկ դրսեցիք հայնակ գիտեն։
Բայց Ղայսարու տաճիկն խիստ չար է եւ վատ. սաֆի էմիրք
են, հաւատոց թշնամիք. եւ աւանն շատ է։ Տներն խամ
քարբիչ է. դռվին փոքր, կկզելով մտնուն. վասն որոյ եւ
քաղաքն աւեր եւ վէրան։ Ունի խաներ, պէզէստան ,
խանութնի, չարշու պազար եւ ոսկերչինոց. բայց սակաւ
մարդ ի նմա կ�երեւին. մի որ ճէլալին աւիրել էր. եւ
մի որ աւնի էմիրի զուլումէ չեն ի գալ շէնլիք անել։

Գնացի մօտ Գրիգոր վարդապետն, առ որ կացեալ էի. զոր
սիրեալ զիս՝ յոյժ ուրախացաւ եւ սիրով զիս ընկալաւ։
Տեսի եաբոյք հին եւ նոր ի ներս քաղաքին եւ ի դուրս.
այլ եւ եկեղեցիք մեծամեծք եւ կամարակապք, վիմաշէն։
Այլ եւ այն եկեղեցին, ուր սուրբ Լուսաւորիչն մեր եւ
Ներսէս հայրապետն ձեռնադրեցաւ Ղեւոնտիոս պատրիարգէ,
որ է մեծ եւ փառաւոր. ամէն զամէնն մէջիթ արած է։ Այլ
եւ բազում ուխտատեղիք կան ներս եւ ի դուրսն։ Եւ
Բարսեղ Կեսարացուն սուրբ գերեզմանն քաղքէն դուրս է,
յարեւելեան դիհ. յառաջն մեծ եկեղեցի էր, այժմ հանգել
է. անդ թաղեն զմեռեալս Հայք. զի քարերն հանել են եւ
բերդին շէնք են դրել։ Եւ ի հարաւակողմն պարիսպն
դուրսն մեծ եկեղեցի Մեռկերիոսի զինաւորին. որ եւ
գերեզմանն անդ է. եւ նա հանգած է. փոքր ղուպա մի
մնացեալ է միայն. սուրբ գերեզմանին վ[ե]րայ խորան,
զոր ամէն երկուշաբթի օր ուխտ կ�երթայ բոլոր քաղաքն
խնկօք եւ մոմեղինօք. եւ մտեալ անդ եւ մեք աղօթեցաք
երկրպագանելով եւ մեղաց թողութիւն խնդրեցաք մեզ եւ
մեր ծնողաց եւ ամենայն երախտաւորաց։ Եւ այլ բազում
ոսկերք եւ մասն կայ անդ սրբոց եւ եկեղեցիք յոլովք
որպէս ի Ստամպօլ. բայց աւեր, միայն նշմարանքն
կ�երեւան։

Եւ դէմ սուրբ Մեռկերի մղոն մի հեռի հարաւակողմ
մեծահամբաւ, հռչակաւոր հին լեառն ԱՐՃԻԱՍ՝ նման
Պուրսու Քէշիշտաղուն եւ այլ մեծ եւ բարձր. եւ քանի
հազար տարու ձիւն կ�էրեւի վրան ամառն եւ ձմեռն, մինչ
յորդնոտած լինէին, զոր անկանէին վայր։ Եւ ասին թէ
բազում կան եկեղեցիք. եւ աւագ եկեղեցին մեծ վիմաշէն
եւ գմպէթաշէն, մարմարիոնեայ սներով, եւ այն աւեր։ Եւ
ասին թէ ամէն տարի ի սուրբ Աստուածածնին օրն
քաղաքացիքն կ�ելնեն ի նա խուրպնով. եւ մեք կամեցաք
ելանել. եւ ասին թէ յոյժ բարձր է եւ դժուարագնաց,
անտաշ քար է եւ ձիւնն վերեւն. ի քարն եւ ի ձիւնն
ոտաց տեղ է կոփած, պիտոր հնարիւք եւ դէսնիֆով ելնեն.
ապա թէ ընկնի՝ հազար կտոր լինի։ Եւ ասին թէ խիստ
սաստիկ ձիւնամեծ է եւ ցուրտ եւ մեծ քամի։

Եւ յայն կոյս լերինն ստորոտն ՏԷՎԷԼՈՒ խասապան է, որ
եւ անդ կայ բազում հայ, եկեղեցի եւ քահանայք։ Եւ
հուպ Արճիշու երկորեակ լեառն, զոր ԱԼԻ ՏԱՂ կոչեն.
բայց շատ փոքր է քան զԱրճիաշն. կայ եւ անդ եկեղեցի
մի Աստուածածին անուն. անդ կան եւ զէնքն Մեռկեռիոսի
՝ յորժամ հրամայեց Մեռկերիոս, թէ երթ եւ սպան
զհայհոյիչն որդոյ իմոյ, որով եւ սպան զպիղծն
Ուլիանոս. եթէ կամիս գիտ եւ կարդա Յայսմաւուրքն
սուրբ Բարսղի։ Կայր անդ եւ սրբոհոյն քրոջն Բարսղի
գերեզման։

Եւ շուրջ զքաղաքաւ բազում այգիք, որպէս Էտրնու յոլով
եւ մրգաւէտ. եօթն ազգ խաղող տեսաք անդ։ Այլ եւ
մարդիկն են հիւրընկալ եւ մարդասէր. ամէն օր այգի մի
տանէին զմեզ. եւ մինչ իրիկունն մխիթարէին զմեզ
կերակրովք եւ անուշ ըմպելօք. զի գինին առատ է եւ լի.
եւ մարդիկն քաղցրազրոյց եւ անուշախօսք, մարդավարք,
խորագէտք եւ բանաստեղծք եւ առակախօսք, կատակարարք եւ
ուրախացուցիչք. ապա ներկողք են։

Այլ եւ Վարդապետն ունէր մեծ էգի որպէս քաղաք. եւ անդ
բազում անգամ գնացեալ մխիթարեցաք։ Եւ ասին թէ նորա
էգին տասներկու ազգ խաղող կայ։

And after many mountains and villages we arrived at Kesaria, the capital(sic) that has two walls, inner ans outer. Two churches on the inside, Sb Astvatsatsin and Sb. Sargis. Thes are underground dugouts and very dark. One can only enter by a wooden staircase. There are over 500 Armenian households, many propsperous merchants and landowners(khojas) but mush more poor farmers and tradespeople like tailors and tanners. Those inside the wall don't speak Armenian, they speak Turkish and Farsi. The Tajiks(Turks) of Kayseri are extre,ely evil and bad, they are mostly emirs (princes)and landowners and fierce enemies of the believers. Most houses are of raw adobe ans have very small doors so that one must bend over and crouch to enter. Because of this (sic[oppression?]) the city is in ruins. There are khans (inns), shops and stores, a bazaar and severl jewelry shops. The oppressive landowners will not rebuild.

I went to visit Grigor Vardapet who received me very cordially and with great joy. He showed me many buildings and churches built of stone, amny of the latter are now converted to mosques. One of the churches, he said, was where Lousavorich and Patriarch Nerses were ordained by the Patriarch Leontius. The sacred tomb of Barsegh of Kesaria, ouside the wall is virtually totally ruined down to nothing. Next to it is the Armenian cemetery but the stones have been removed and used to build the walls. Every Monday there will be pilgrimages where candles are lit and incense is burned. The only chapel remaining, in ruins as well is said to have had more trasures and gold than all of Stmbol. About a mile to the south Mt. Arjiash which is now known as Keshish(priest) Dagh@. It is big and high, one can see several years' accumulation of snow winter ans summer. They told me taht there were many churches, many built of masonry and marble columns, many of which are in virtual ruins or totally razed. During the feast of Astvatsatsin massive pilgrimages are held where animals are sacrificed and services held. I wanted to climb up but they warned me that is was very dangerously steep and and difficult and that those who fall off are broken into thousand pieces. At thefoot of this virgin Mountainis the town of Develou where many Armenians live. A little further rises the twin mountain of Arjash which is smalled and now is known as Ali Dagh. The tomb of Barsegh's sister, a saint in her own right is located there.

Numerous orchards and vineyards surround the city where it reported to be seven different varietis of grape. They took us to the orchards almost every day where we were fed with the most deliciuos food and drinks. The people are very generous and hospitable. THey are alos very eloquent, pleasant spoken and creative, they would entertain us with poetry, songs, jokes and stories.

The Vardapet owned a large vineyard. He would entertain us on many occasions. It is rumored that his vineyard has twelve varieties of grapes.

Note; Azat, Harut, Nairi. PLease convert to unicode. I give up. My system does not support it.

Fixed the font - nairi

Edited by nairi, 07 July 2004 - 05:00 PM.


#17 bellthecat

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (vava @ Jul 6 2004, 02:17 PM)
Steve, please - it would suffice to say that you didn't enjoy your company on your last trip. Please don't get personal, it is getting a bit tired.

It isn't getting "tired" for me, alas - so I intend to pursue it until it does.
I might pursue it in more detail in the "Tales from Lostlandia" thread.

#18 Gergeme

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 04:22 PM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ Jul 7 2004, 11:30 AM)
Gergeme
A village in the Bunyan borough of the Kayseri province. Its newly fabricated name is Doganlar [1].

Thanks, I will check on that.

The village people have been relocated to a nearby, newly constructed neighbor around 1970's. Vilage is empty http://www.findtheli...istory/gergeme/
Historical curved stones, stones from the churches are visible everywhere, at the edge of streams, as divider between the vegetable gardens, inside the houses.
The names of the sections of the vilage still called (at least by my mom) with the names ending "..yan"

I have to find out about "summit people" thanks again

#19 Gergeme

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Stormig @ Jul 6 2004, 03:39 AM)
Arpa, I expect Gergeme is not Greek but Turkish judging from his writing "sancak" and not "sanjak," and a coupla other things.

Actually one of the reason I have been researching, reading, traveling is to find out "who I really am?" ( in the sense of ancestry) not what my passport or my ID says who I am.

Sancak or Sanjak, those were, like most "quotes" from the writings, I quote the way it is written, or I change to make it sound "familiar". It shows that it is working:)

You must be American.
"It is not important what is said, but it is important WHO says it". Land of Hypocracy, "hate mongering is too bad, it is said, yet it is the land of Hate Mongering",
Champion of democracy , yet, allie and supporter of all the Dictatorships, death squads",
Champion of Peace, yet there is no other country had more war in last fifty years than her"
Champion of cleaning the world from the weapons of mass destruction , yet no other country has more WMD than her, and the only one who used and lets other use

I love the song of louis Armstrong(full version), what a wonderfull world;
"it aint the world so bad, what we doing to it"
"lots more of us loved each other, we'd solve lots more problems"

#20 Stormig

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 08:02 AM

:sniff sniff: Someone's been smokin' sumpin' funny in here.




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