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Who Were Urartians? Are We Decendants Of Urartians?


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#41 shaunt

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 03:46 PM

Error 404, Diakonoff's book, "The pre-history of Armenians," is by far the best work on this topic. It is EXTREMELY informative. In the book he mentions 5 groups which constitute the proto-Armenians; the Phyrgians, Thracians, Luwians, Urartians, and Hurrians.

Greppin's works are also worth looking into. In one he explains how the proto-Armenians must have had an extended stay in Mesopotamia on the basis of borrowed vocabulary from Semitic languages.

#42 Eurocentric

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:35 AM

QUOTE(shaunt @ Aug 13 2006, 03:46 PM) View Post
Error 404, Diakonoff's book, "The pre-history of Armenians," is by far the best work on this topic. It is EXTREMELY informative. In the book he mentions 5 groups which constitute the proto-Armenians; the Phyrgians, Thracians, Luwians, Urartians, and Hurrians.

Greppin's works are also worth looking into. In one he explains how the proto-Armenians must have had an extended stay in Mesopotamia on the basis of borrowed vocabulary from Semitic languages.


Very good Shaunt. There are words in Semitic languages which can only be explained by early contact with IE languages, Luwian is a primary candidate.

Error404 I also reccomend reading this very informative article by Thomas J. Samuelian: http://64.233.161.10...M...t=clnk&cd=1

#43 Error 404

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 12:01 PM

Thanks alot guys!!!!

#44 Sarduri

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:22 PM

if u guys want to know the truth, yes, we are 100 percent urartus, i can prove it......

#45 Sarduri

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:37 PM

if ur armenian, then youll know armenians call their country hayastan after the urartu god haldi. but in those days "l" stood for "y", so hayde, hay deity,haydi=hayastan.

#46 LionHeart

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 07:06 AM

Error 404, you have valid questions about the linguistic difference between Urartuan and Armenian. It's sometimes good to think outside of the box. What makes you think that Urartuans spoke Urartuan? We don't have audio files from the period, after all.

#47 Sarduri

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 01:10 PM

lionheart, its just politics, who say racist stuff.

#48 Yervant1

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 11:57 AM

ARMENIA THE HEIR OF URARTU

[ Part 2.2: "Attached Text" ]

Filed under: Archaeology, Art, Culture, Geography, History, Literature,
Science, Tradition -- Leave a comment December 12, 2013 Relief
depicting offering bearers, from Urartu, Armenia

Relief depicting offering bearers, from Urartu, Armenia

ART OF URARTU

Urartu was an Iron Age Armenian kingdom famed for one of the finest
examples of ancient art. Urartu at its zenith had a profound
cultural influence on its neighbors reaching as far as Asia and
Europe. Supported by discoveries of Urartian artifacts inside Etruscan
burials, it has been hypothesized that much of Etruscan culture
has its origins in Urartu. [1] [2] Observations by Boris Piotrovsky
suggest that decoration and production techniques of Scythian belts
and scabbards were borrowed from Urartu. [3] The Urartian way of
decorating cauldrons spread over the ancient world, and it is believed
that Armenian art is based on the Urartian traditions. [4] [5]

URARTU AND ARMENIA

Armenian tribute bearer from Persepolis

Armenian tribute bearer from Persepolis (5th c. BCE)

That historic Armenian kingdom was in fact a continuation of the
kingdom of Urartu also known as "Kingdom of Van" is apparent from
ancient records. In the trilingual Behistun inscription, carved
in 521 BC by the order of Darius the Great of Persia, the country
referred to as Urartu in Assyrian is called Arminiya in Old Persian
and Harminuia in Elamite. Armenia, Urartu, (Biblical) Ararat and
Herminuia are therefore synonyms. Ancient people of the region did
not distinguish Armenia from Urartu. Some modern scholars however
proposed that Urartu fell to a Median invasion and was later replaced
by Armenians. The evidence, however, for the so called "fall of Urartu"
is absent. There are no records of invading Armenians.

Urartu in fact maintained its independence and power, going through a
mere dynastic change, as a local Armenian dynasty (later to be called
the Orontids) came to power. Ancient sources support this explanation:
Xenophon, for example, states that Armenia, ruled by an Orontid king,
was not conquered until the reign of Median king Astyages (585-
550 BC) - long after Median invasion of the late 7th century BC. [6]

Similarly, Strabo (1st century BC - 1st century AD) wrote that:

"In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it
broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages,
it was deprived of that great authority ..." [7]

Medieval Armenian chronicles corroborate the Greek sources. In
particular, Movses Khorenatsi (5th c. AD) writes that Armenian prince
Paruyr Skayordi helped the Median king Cyaxares and his allies conquer
Assyria, for which Cyaxares recognized him as the king of Armenia,
while Media conquered Armenia only much later--under Astyages. [8]

The name "Urartu" was simply stopped being used when the Persians
stopped making trilingual and bilingual inscriptions and dropped
Assyro-Babylonian altogether.

Different peoples throughout different times used to refer to Armenia
by different names. The Sumerians in around 2,800 BCE called Armenia
- Aratta, while the Akkadians that succeeded them in the second half
of Third Millennium BCE called Armenia - Armani or Armanum.

The Hittites who rose in the Second Millennium BCE called Armenia -
Hayasa, while the Assyrians who arose in the second half of Second
Millennium BCE called Armenia - Uruatri or Urartu (Ararat of the
Bible). With their disappearance from the historical arena, the
different names that they used to refer to Armenia and the Armenian
people disappeared with them. However, Armenia and the Armenian people,
always found the strength for renewal throughout the long millennia
of their epic history and continued to fight on for both preservation
and progress. [9]

Figure decorating a throne, found at the site of Toprak Kale, near Van
(bronze and stone)

Figure decorating a throne, found at the site of Toprak Kale, near Van
(bronze and stone)

GENETICS OF URARTU

Armenian Urartu culture

Evolution of Armenian culture

Genetic evidence too shows that Armenians are native to the lands
inhabited by Urartians. After elaborate research prof Dr. Richard
Villems and colleagues of the University of Tartu (Faculty of biology
and geography Institute of molecular and cell biology) have concluded
in 2004:

"In our study the ancestry of the Armenians was traced back
to different parts of Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey,
illustrating the fact that historic Armenia was a much larger territory
than that of the present Republic of Armenia".

Litvinov S. and colleagues have also noted in a paper from 2008:

"Armenians are a separate ethnic group, which originated from Neolithic
tribes of the Armenian Uplands" [10]

A similar statement was made by M.M. Banoie et. al. in 2008:

"The Armenians are a nation and an ethnic group originating from the
Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, where a large concentration of this
community has remained, especially in Armenia." [11]

THE LANGUAGE OF URARTU

However the most frequently cited argument against the Urartu-Armenian
connection is linguistics. Some argue that people of Urartu did not
speak an Armenian language, rather they supposed Urartians spoke a
language related to Northeast-Caucasian languages.

This hypothesis was first proposed by Igor M. Diakonoff who was
instructed on the matter by Sergei Anatolyevich Starostin.

Starostin's theories have met considerable skepticism and his Altaic
theory is controversial to say the least. Starostin has embarked
on a journey to connect as many ancient languages as he can to
North-Caucasian. Including Yeniseian, Altaic, Tibetan, Japanese and
Austric. Urartian and its older relative Hurrian he also wrongly
connected to North-Caucasian. This theory however is not generally
accepted in the academic circles. Moreover both Diakonoff and Starostin
were not versed in Armenian making their judgment on Hurro-Urartian
a difficult task. As the Cambridge University encyclopedia of ancient
languages describes:

"A genetic relation between (reconstructed) Proto-Urarto-Hurrian and
(reconstructed) Northeast Caucasian has been argued for, but it is
not generally accepted. If the connection could be demonstrated,
it would be a rather distant one." [12]

hurro-urartian not north caucasian3

The Urartian scribes seemed to have been utilizing various alphabets,
including native hieroglyphs. The most comprehensive studies have
shown affinity to the Armenian language.

According to the German Orientalist A. D. Mordtmann, Urartian language
was specifically Armenian, and it was only necessary to turn to
an Armenian dictionary to discover the meaning of every word in the
inscriptions. Dr. Mordtmann deciphered Urartian cuneiform inscriptions
which in his words were written in one of early Armenian dialects. He
also deciphered some Mesopotamian inscriptions using Armenian. [13]

The Armenian scholar S. Ayvazyan has also demonstrated in his extensive
work (Urartian-Armenian lexicon and comparative - historical grammar",
2011) that Armenian and Urartian languages are very much related. He
summarizes by saying:

o Of the 230-250 Urartian words identified to date, 156 have their
parallels in Armenian, thus comprising 62-68 percent of the established
Urartian lexicon.

o Of the 156 parallel words, 95, almost 61 percent, are native and,
therefore, cannot have been borrowed from Urartian (if, indeed,
such a separate language ever existed).

o A large percentage of the parallel words are such that rarely
infiltrate from one language to another (for instance, pronouns,
basic (ad)verbs, subsidiary words, etc.)

...

o In the group of 65-68 words in the available Urartian lexicon
with the most secure identification, (the words whose meanings
are defined by the bilingual inscriptions and/or corresponding
logograms), in general, 47 words, around 66-69 percent, have Armenian
parallels. Moreover, 31 of these words are native; seven, borrowed
and only nine words are of unknown origin.

o There are also numerous Armenian roots in various proper names
attested in Urartian.

The examination of these points unequivocally brings us to the
following conclusion: ...The above mentioned facts prove that the
larger part of the lexicon - the most frequently occurring, which forms
the basis of the Urartian inscriptions - has its parallels in Armenian.

Bearing in mind that the Armenian-Urartian parallel word(root)s are
(1) ubiquitous, (2) present in all groups of the identified lexicon,
and (3) mostly native Armenian words, we can without doubt claim that
the language preserved in the Urartian texts (which in scholarly
literature is known as Urartian) is cognate to Armenian or is the
early stage of it." [14]

And thus, from linguistic, genetic, geographic, historic and cultural
perspectives we can safely say that Armenia alone is the true heir
of Urartu. With its art and sophistication admired by cultures of
the past and present. Armenian national art still bears the cultural
torch lid by the ancestors inhabiting of the Armenian Highlands.

Sources:

1) Maxwell, M., Hyslop KR Urartian Bronzes in Etruscan Tombs,
Iraq, XVIII, 2, 1956 2) Pallottino, M. (1958). "Urartu, Greece and
Etruria". East and West (Rome) 9 (1-2) 3) Ð~_иоÑ~BÑ~@овÑ~Aкий
Ð'. Ð'. Ð~XÑ~AкÑ~CÑ~AÑ~AÑ~Bво УÑ~@аÑ~@Ñ~BÑ~C VIII--VI
вв. до н. Ñ~M. ("The Art of Urartu, 8th-6th century
BC"). (Hermitage, Leningrad, 1962 4) Ð~_иоÑ~BÑ~@овÑ~Aкий
Ð'. Ð'. Ð'анÑ~Aкое Ñ~FаÑ~@Ñ~AÑ~Bво (УÑ~@аÑ~@Ñ~BÑ~C) (kingdom
of Van (Urartu)), Eastern Literature Publishing House, Moscow, 1959 5)
Ð~PÑ~@акеÐ"Ñ~Oн Ð'.Ð~]. Ð~ZÐ"ад Ñ~AеÑ~@ебÑ~@Ñ~OнÑ~KÑ...

издеÐ"ий из ЭÑ~@ебÑ~Cни (Silver treasures
excavated at Erebuni) Soviet Archaeology, 1971, Vol. 1 6)
Xenophon.Cyropedia. 3.7. Translated by Henry Graham Dakyns.

7) Strabo Geographica 11.13.5 8) Movses Khorenatsi. History of
Armenia, 5th Century (Õ~@Õ¡ÕµÕ¸O~A Õ~JÕ¡Õ¿Õ´Õ¸O~BÕ©ÕµÕ¸O~BÕ¶,
Ôµ Ô´Õ¡O~@). Annotated translation and commentary by Stepan
Malkhasyants. Gagik Sarkisyan (ed.) Yerevan: Hayastan Publishing,
1997, 1.21, pp. 100-101. ISBN 5-540-01192-9.

9) Gevork Nazarian (http://www.armenianhighland.com/) 10) Litvinov S,
Kutuev I, Yunusbayev B, Khusainova R, Valiev R, Khusnutdinova E (2008)
Alu insertion Polymorphisms in populations of the South Caucasus.

11) Banoei MM, Chaleshtori MH, Sanati MH, Shariati P, Houshmand M,
Majidizadeh T, Soltani NJ, Golalipour M. (2008), Variation of DAT1
VNTR alleles and genotypes among old ethnic groups in Mesopotamia to
the Oxus region.

12) Gernot Wilhelm (2008), The Ancient Languages of Asia Minor,
Cambridge Books Online, Cambridge University Press 2009 13) Mordtmann
A.D. About the cuneiform inscriptions of Armenia , Journal of the
German Oriental Society, Leipzig, XXXI, 1877 14) Sargis Ayvazyan
(2011), Urartian-Armenian lexicon and Comparative-Historical Grammer.

Images from the Armenian kingdom of Urartu:

Relief depicting a winged god stepping on a lion from the kingdom of
Urartu, Armenia, Hittite civilization

Relief depicting a winged god stepping on a lion from the kingdom of
Urartu, Armenia, Hittite civilization

Urartu civilization. Stele of Rusa II, King of Urartu between around
680 BC and 639 BC. Cuneiform inscription commemorating the building
of a canal to channel water to the city of Quarlini from the Ildaruni
(Hrazdan River).

Urartu civilization. Stele of Rusa II, King of Urartu between around
680 BC and 639 BC. Cuneiform inscription commemorating the building
of a canal to channel water to the city of Quarlini from the Ildaruni
(Hrazdan River).

Bull Head Attachment, c.700-600 BC (bronze)

The kingdom of Urartu was contemporary with the Assyrian
civilization. The Urartians produced elaborate bronze objects
and probably passed on many of their metalwork traditions to the
Achaemenian Persians. This bull head was probably one of four placed
at cardinal points around the rim of a huge Urartian bronze cauldron.

Bracelet (silver and gold) from the kingdom of Urartu (7th century BC),
Armenian Highland

Bracelet (silver and gold) from the kingdom of Urartu (7th century BC),
Armenian Highland

Urartu civilization. Bronze Sphinx. From Tushpa or Toprakkale. 7th
century B.C. Turkey. Pergamon Museum. Berlin. Germany.

Urartu civilization. Bronze Sphinx. From Tushpa or Toprakkale. 7th
century B.C. Turkey. Pergamon Museum. Berlin. Germany.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Bronze figure, from Karmir Blur, Armenia. Armenian Civilization,
7th Century BC.

Urartu civilization. Statue. male figure. From Tushpa. 7th century B.C.

Urartu civilization. Statue. male figure. From Tushpa. 7th century B.C.

Urartu civilization. Remains probably of a decorated armor. From
Tushpa or Toprakkale. 7th century B.C. Turkey. Pergamon Museum.

Berlin. Germany.

Urartu civilization. Remains probably of a decorated armor. From
Tushpa 7th century B.C. Pergamon Museum. Berlin. Germany.

Urartu civilization. Pectoral and gold medallion decorated with
reliefs. The pectoral depicts the image of god Haldi on the throne
and his wife Arubani. The madaillon, a seated goddess. From Tushpa
or Toprakkale. 7th century B.C.

Urartu civilization. Pectoral and gold medallion decorated with
reliefs. The pectoral depicts the image of god Haldi on the throne
and his wife Arubani. The madaillon, a seated goddess. From Tushpa
7th century B.C.

http://peopleofar.wo...heir-of-urartu/



#49 Arpa

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:05 AM


Can we stop lying?
No one believes us, not even we.
I have one question.
How come, with all that so called civilization, the Uratuans and by association the Armenians did not have a writing system and a written language in the modern sense, .Until the year 405 AD , a mere 1000 years after the said high civilization. Until Mashtots said, enough (lies) is enough and decided to imitate and copy the Greek and Latin, Alphabets, not the Urartuan.
Here is how the Urartuns and Armenians wrote before Mashtots.
http://vaipui.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/stickman_waving_by_brydon9803.gif
And now, after 1500 years after, our friends in Yerevan want to trash all what Mashtots created. How many times must we trash and destroy our past history, and instead create imagined “histories”? Hi Grigor, grish grishovich pahlavian the (dis) illuminator!
Boris Piotrovky writes about Urartu? What does Boghos Petrosian say?
And while we are singing lullaby, ՔՈՒՆ ԵՂԻՐ ԲԱԼԱՍ sleeping and dreaming see Urartu-Urarturk.
http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7851&hl=urarturk
Urartuan script was the Cuneiform** which was not even invented by them. It was invented by the Sumerians.
Also note below that the Sumerians devised the system in the 4th millenium BC , a mere 4000 years before the Mesropian Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform

Cuneiform script[nb 1] is one of the earliest known systems of writing,[2] distinguished by its "wedge-shaped" marks on clay tablets, made by means of a blunt reed for a stylus. The name cuneiform itself simply means "wedge shaped", from the Latin cuneus "wedge" and forma "shape," and came into English usage "probably from Old French cunéiforme."[3]
Emerging in Sumer in the late 4th millennium BC (the Uruk IV period), cuneiform writing began as a system of pictographs. In the third millennium, the pictorial representations became simplified and more abstract as the number of characters in use grew smaller, from about 1,000 in the Early Bronze Age to about 400 in Late Bronze Age (Hittite cuneiform). The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic and Old Persian alphabets. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire, and by the 2nd century AD, the script had become extinct, all knowledge of how to read it was forgotten until it began to be deciphered in the 19th century

**In the Armenian Cuneiform is known as Սեպագիր- Sepagir. Even if some may loosely translate it to mean nail Sep in fact means wedge..
ՍԵՊԱԳԻՐ
http://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D5%8D%D5%A5%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%A3%D5%AB%D6%80
 



#50 onjig

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:33 PM

Armenia and Urartu are synonymous. In the trilingual Behistun inscription of Darius the Great (c.520 BC), the Babylonian toponym “Urashtu” appears in Old Persian as “Armina,” and in Elamite as “Harminuia,”corresponding to modern “Armenia.” [1] [2] In Hebrew (as recorded in the Bible) this land was called Ararat. The toponym “Urartu” emerged as a regional description rather than ethnic. Historian Boris Piotrovsky argued that “the Assyrian name of Uruatri [which gave birth to the Urartu toponym] had no ethnic significance but was most probably a descriptive term (perhaps meaning “the mountainous country”).”[3]  In the Babylonian chancelleries the name of Urartu (under its Babylonian form, Urashtu) continued to be used, while simultaneously in old Persian it was called Armenia. [4] As Assyrian language gradually disappeared from historic records (after decline of Assyria and rise of Media) so did the toponym Urartu ceased to be used. [5] Instead only the name Armenia survived henceforward in the annals of history.

an-armenian-tribute-bearer-carrying-a-me

An Armenian tribute bearer carrying a metal vessel with griffin handles. Fifth century BC

As Herodotus tells us, a decisive part was played by the arrival of a large Scythian army led by Madyes, son of Protothyes (the Partatua of the Assyrian sources). The last Assyrian king, Ashur-uballit, was compelled to withdraw to Harran, where he managed to hold out until 610 B.C.; then in the year 605, after the fall of Carchemish, the Assyrian kingdom ceased to exist. [6] And thus “Urartu” has not been recorded as such in Assyrian sources anymore. The name of Urartu is mentioned for the last time in a document of the time of Darius II (c. 415 B.C.).[6] By then the Armenian Orontid dynasty has already been well established since c.a. 553 BC. Thus Urartu in these records again, undeniably, refers to Armenia. The disappearance of “Urartu” from records merely signifies the disappearance of its exonym, not the country, as various nations continued to call Armenia with different names only dropping certain toponyms when the usage of these languages shifted or disappeared. Thus during Persian dominance Urartu lived on as a satrapy, and later as an independent kingdom simply known as Armenia. [7]

There can be no doubt about the way Urartu, Urashtu, Ararat, Armenia and Harminuia, have been used in the antiquity; simply as synonyms. Hence, there are no records of any invading Armenians into Urartu, there are no records of any power struggles or outside invasion of (the sometimes) supposed ‘Armen’ tribes, simply because these events never occurred.  No such records from Assyrian, Babylonian or even Urartian sources. Such a powerful geopolitical shift would have certainly been noticed and recorded. Instead, Armenia and Urartu have been used as synonyms side by side as the aforementioned records clearly demonstrate that toponyms Urartu and Armenia are synonyms for the same country.



#51 hagopn

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 03:00 PM

Onjig, Good man!  You found the main misconception that our "Urartuans" have.  Yes, indeed, the Behistun trilingual evidence is actualy in support of the fact that Urartu (a concoction and intentional mispronunciation of Ararat) is one and same with Armenia. 

 

It is the same phenomenon of fishing for different identities in Nairi (Assyrian sources denoting greater Armenia) and Hayassa (Hittite sources denoting Armenia).  The pseudo-academia still pretends that Nairi is different from Hayassa.  Simple algebra says that if Hittites did not also use Nairi as reference to Armenia and the Assyrians did not use Hayassa as reference to Armenia, there is something missing.  It is more likely that these names refer to the same entity used by different ethnicities at different times from different perspectives! 

 

The same goes with Armenia/Urashtu. It is not Urartu, but Urashtu on the Behistun rock.  Urashtu most probably means "land of fire" in IE, indo-iranian, and more probably Armenian.  Armenians are said to have borrowed the term Ashtanak, աշտանակ, աշտ - fire, perhaps "starlight" as well according to some scholars - as the root, http://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%B1%D5%B7%D5%BF%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%A1%D5%AF 

 

The main problem with this "borrowing from Pahlavi" jamboree that began with Hubschmann/Ajarian, is that Pahlavi was a language that itself borrowed heavily from Avestani, which in turn is a language that is rooted in Armenia. 

 

NOTE: My copy of Hovik Nersesian's book on Zoroaster is floating somewhere in Yerevan.  I lent it to a former Marxist/Leninist.  The "book thief is no criminal" reflex took him over, I suppose.  My mistake.  I would appreciate it if someone could point me to an existing copy.

 

Arpa's literacy argument has been argued against in the Basques and Armenian forum.   http://hyeforum.com/...=57752&p=314863 


Edited by hagopn, 26 January 2014 - 03:09 PM.


#52 hagopn

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 12:32 PM

As to the banal "Urartuan was cunieform therefore not Armenian", Gavoukjian responded to that as far back as 1975 in his initial article published in "Garun Monthly."  Has anyone missed the Artashesian hellenistic period when Armenian was also written with Greek characters?  Are we that desperate to maintain the Trained Monkey Status Quo in order to feel "special" that we are "not of this nationalist sort, but balanced huiman beings."  How "balanced" is it to be imbalanced about one's identity to the point of avoiding facts that counters the so-called mainstream (that does not actually exist)?

 

Gavoukjian rightly so says that much as the majority of the region, Urartuans used a diplomatic language for their public records, their inscriptons.  In this case, it was the Hurrian language used by MIttanni, which still means nothing, which still does not discount it as a possible Arnenian dialect**.  The linguistic affiliation of Hurrian is also up for grabs: No one knows what language family it belongs to.  As I have repeatedly, repeatedly said and will continue to say, Hurrian is thought to be Uralic, Indo-European, Semitic (Amoritic), and Dravidian depending on who you ask, which clearly indicates that the "academic world" doesn't know didly squat.  Gavoukjian, ironically, himself bought the Uralic (Finno-Ugric in his day as of yet) idea by going with Diakonov's Baku influenced ASSumptions.  Yes, Diakonov has been indicted in RUssian television of having been on Baku's payroll, and Diakonov is one of the chief "Urartu is not Armenian" architects of the Soviet pseudo-science on the topic.

 

**As to the possibility that EVEN the Urartuan cuneiform is possibly an Armenian dialect, A. Mordtmann is one strong proponent of this from the heyday, pre-genocide period of Armenology.  Mordtmann is my favorite, because he was one of the rare scholars who as actually willing to study the ancient cultures in Armenia by actually referencing and taking into account the Armenian language!   What a damned novel concept!

 

Imagine, study Armenia and actually take into account Armenians.  How "revolutionary" indeed.


Edited by hagopn, 27 January 2014 - 12:35 PM.


#53 onjig

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:17 PM

I haven't visited this thread for a good while. There is something we have known but not sure I've seen it written.

 

The Armenian people, the Hye , by any name we were called did write, did record, did seed greetings and keep count on belongings. 

 

Armenians wrote with cuneiform and Greek for sure. The time came when we had  Ayp pen kim an alphabet that was ours and ours alone. We were recording before that time.

 

 

Note: I take that back, hagopn, has pretty much said the same thing.

 

 

 

Armenia was a missionary country in early years and shared our religion and our alphabet with other peoples. Father told me that when in Ethiopia he saw that their alphabet had clearly Armenian looking letters, in most cases representing different sound. I thought it no accident. 


Edited by onjig, 09 June 2014 - 06:24 PM.


#54 Arpa

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 10:57 PM

Yet another wishful thinking, fable.
To me the Ethiopian Alphabet looks much like the hebrew one, both being of semitic structure.
Amharic/Ethiopian alphabet. Oddly, contrary to other Semitics, linked (Arabic and Asyrian), it is detached. and spaced, like Greek, Latin and Armenian.. There is a reason for that.***
http://www.omniglot....ing/amharic.htm
Hebrew alphabet
http://en.wikipedia....Hebrew_alphabet
Aramaic alphabet;
http://en.wikipedia....ramaic_alphabet
====
About the fables that Maahtots devised the Georgian and Albanian alphabets. Let us revisit this thread and see what our house comedic philosopher Harut said about what some claim that Mashtots designed the Georgian and the Caucasian Albanian Alphabets.
See # 31 here;
http://hyeforum.com/...=2
:goof: :silly: :jester:

it is said that one sunny summer day, Mesrop Mashtots was enjoying his lunch with group of colleagues in his padio in vagharshapat... on that day they were having fine Italian spaghetti... the door to the patio opened and three dumb-faced individuals entered... obiously Georgians, they were there to beg the master to create alphabet for Georgians... angred by the barrage of beggars for alphabets for different nations since his creatation of the Armenian one, Mashtots banged his fist on the table... "ENOUGH!!!"... the fine plate of spaghetti jumped on the air and landed on the ground, creating a mess on the patio floor... looking at what he had done, Mashtots yelled... "THERE... THERE ARE LETTERS..." pointing to bizarre looking shapes on the floor created by the spaghetti that was now covering most of the patio floor... amased and mashtots's brilance, the three Georgians got on their knees, thanked the master, and starting finding their letters among the spaghetti....... and that's how the Georgian alphabet was created.

..
===
To not forget that some of us claim that the Ethiopian Christianity was spread by Armenian missionaries. Yes. It is very similar to the Armenian Apostolic Church.. But look here. It happened 300 years before Armenians became Christians. As always the Negro Ethiopian was eunuch, i.e a slave.**
http://en.wikipedia....thiopian_eunuch
** In the Arabic Abeed means both an African negro and a slave simultaneously..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeed
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Abd_(Arabic)
Also consider the word abdal . Some Armenians have Abdalian as their family name.
*** See #8 here;
http://hyeforum.com/...=1
ՄԵՆՔ ՄԵԶԻ ՀԱՐՍ ԵՆՔ ԼԻՆՈՒՄ, ԲԱՅՑ ՈՒՐ Է ՓԷՍԱՆ? ***
Տուն տուն ենք խաղում
We are playing that childish game of house, with daddy, mommy and baby.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/House_(game)

**** See Anushs crazed hallucinatory aria.
Էս ինչ տեսակ հարսանիք է, ոչ հարս ունինք ոչ փեսա:

Edited by Arpa, 09 June 2014 - 11:00 PM.


#55 onjig

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:38 PM

Yes, you run along to another thread I'll stay here looking through Urartu for a while. But we'll be along. Off you go.



#56 onjig

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:57 PM

I've always felt, understood, believed, known, could see that we were are Uratu, Araratu, Yurartu. I wonder if we played tavli those days.



#57 Arpa

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 06:34 PM

Who am I talking to?
I am talking to myself.

Armenia was a missionary country in early years and shared our religion and our alphabet with other peoples. Father told me that when in Ethiopia he saw that their alphabet had clearly Armenian looking letters, in most cases representing different sound. I thought it no accident.

Can we please wake up and smell the Haykakan Sourj?
Speak from the head, not from the other end?
Armenia was a missionary country?
When? Where? Please show us even one such name and reference..
The only missionaries connected to us, Thaddeus and Bartholomew** were not even Armenian. We Murdered (martyred?) them. It took us another 300 years before we became Christians.
The only Armenian Missionary Roger Youderian is not even an armenian by strict definition.***
See # 26 here;
http://hyeforum.com/...=2
http://en.wikipedia....Roger_Youderian
http://en.wikipedia..../Operation_Auca
** Where do we see that they were Armenian Missionaries/
http://www.armenianp...and-bartholomew
***And the farcical farce of Armenian missionaries in Iceland. Sarr-yeerkir Սառ- երկիր Սառ/Ice/Feost**** , to not confuse with Սար/mountain..
http://hyeforum.com/...e=1
**** Btw. What is the Armenian word for frost, frostbite?

Edited by Arpa, 16 June 2014 - 06:48 PM.


#58 onjig

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:44 AM

In Uratu for frostbite we said baghahgaitel. Now saroitz- wait we don't get frostbite, we wear gloves and shoes, we sometimes have nosestockings.

 

 

 

 

Uratu=Urat=Ara=Ararat


Edited by onjig, 18 June 2014 - 08:55 AM.


#59 onjig

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:52 AM

Some imply they know the sounds written in hieroglyph and cuneiform I don't for a minute believe that.

They might find a shape that represents a word but can have no idea of the sound.

 

Linguistic differences?  Can you tell the differences between ^^><^<> and """:::":: ? No! and nether can they, whoever they are.

 

At an Armenian wedding a priest was saying: " The Nairi overcame the Armens." The Armens are the Nairi as you know Nairi is what the Assyrians called us, now we use the word as a proper noun. 

 

I read the writings of an Englishman or German, I forget, saying, We, The Armenians came from the west, west? West of what? where was he standing when he watched us.

 

The furk and asszies say we were never there, that we don't exist. Do You stand with any of them, who the hetch ever they are? 

 

We were there from the begining no one was there to see that there was ever someone there between today and the time Noah stepped from the Ark. 



#60 Yervant1

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:23 AM

ARMENOLOGIST ARTAK MOVSISYAN ON WRITING SYSTEMS IN URARTU

ARMENIA, CHRISTIANITY, HISTORY, MIRROR-SPECTATOR | JULY 30, 2015 1:59 PM
________________________________

Dr. Artak Movsisyan

By Aram Arkun

Mirror-Spectator Staff

WATERTOWN -- Artak Movsisyan is one of a very small number of
specialists in the writing systems used in Armenia prior to the
acceptance of Christianity. His doctoral thesis (1997) at Yerevan
State University (YSU) was written on the hieroglyphic script of the
kingdom of Urartu (Bianili). There are even fewer specialists on this
topic. Movsisyan visited Boston and other US cities in early 2015,
and after giving a lecture for Hamazkayin Armenian Educational and
Cultural Society in Watertown, visited the Mirror-Spectator to talk
about his work.

Movsisyan has been an associate professor of history at YSU since
1998 and a senior researcher at the Institute of Oriental Studies
of the National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Armenia. He
also worked at the State Historical Museum of Armenia from 1991 to
1997. He is the author of many monographs and research articles in
Armenian and other languages, including one translated into English
as The Writing Culture of Pre-Christian Armenia (2006).

His 1998 volume on Urartian hieroglyphics was the first full book
published on this topic, and in fact only several articles have
been written on it too previously. This is in part because of the
difficulty in collecting source materials, which are dispersed in
three different countries. Many inscriptions are in museums and have
not been published. Prior to Movsisyan, the Englishman Richard Barnett
wrote an article after collecting 30 inscriptions. Movsisyan took this
field to a new level, collecting 1,500, many of which were for the
first time obtained from museums. He traveled four times to Western
Armenia (present-day Turkey) for research. It is still only possible
to read about 20 percent of the materials. Of 300 hieroglyphics,
only 60 can be interpreted today.

Some of the inscriptions give the names of kings, or serve as captions
for images of gods. Others are short texts, or lists. For example,
information on the quantity of wine in clay jars might be listed. Most
are on stone and clay, or bronze containers and plates, but seals of
inscriptions on parchment have also been preserved.

The language in which the inscriptions were written is still being
debated. Movsisyan believes that it may be ancient Armenian, with
Indo-European meanings and some similarities to (Indo-European)
Hittite and Luwian hieroglyphics. He believes that the Armenian
language was being used during the ninth to seven centuries BC. While
the hieroglyphics were in this language, he finds that a different
writing system being simultaneously used in Urartu -- Urartian
cuneiform - possibly could represent a different language which was
not Armenian. Some scholars like Sarkis Ayvazian insist that even
this cuneiform is representing a form of Armenian, but the majority
of scholars do not accept this (even if some words in Armenian may
be used). However, the pronunciation being used for these cuneiform
inscriptions is the Assyrian one, and it is not certain whether this
is the correct approach, according to Movsisyan. Further research
is necessary.

There have been a few instances where the same item was described
with both cuneiform and hieroglyphics, and this helped in decipherment.

Movsisyan stated that elements of some of the more ancient rock
carvings found in Armenia have been used in the hieroglyphics. It is
also possible, he believes, that the same hieroglyphic writing was
used by pagan priests in Armenia up until the adoption of Christianity
and Mashtots's invention of the Armenian alphabet.

A third writing system was also used by the Urartian initially,
Assyro-Babylonian cuneiform. However, only ten such inscriptions have
been collected, usually on stelae, with four on bilingual ones. In
comparison, there are about 1,350 objects with Urartian cuneiform
known at present.

In ancient times, the simultaneous use of a variety of writing systems
was not unusual, and many other kingdoms did this.

Movsisyan feels that in the Urartian state, the origins of the ruling
dynasty were not important. What is important is which ethnos's
interests was being represented by the rulers and the state--in this
case, Movsisyan feels, it is the Armenian one, as he is a subscriber
to the view that the origins of the Indo-Europeans lie in Armenia.

This theory would mean that the Armenians are an autochthonous people.

When asked about the difficulties of being a scholar in general in
present-day Armenia, Movsisyan explained that in general, scholars
must have a third job outside of academia in order to make ends meet,
which takes away time that could have been used for scholarship. With
the majority of the state budget being allocated to the army, because
of the tense situation with Azerbaijan, he felt that scholars had
to suffer until the future of Armenia was secured. The military in
Azerbaijan enjoys an annual budget greater than the entire Armenian
state budget.

Some scholars work in private schools and teach to make extra money,
or do translations. In general the number of scholars has greatly
decreased compared to the Soviet period because of the difficult
economic situation.

Movsisyan finds that Armenology is in general weak in reaching out to
the masses, who do not read scholarly works. He finds that there is a
lack of approachable and easily understandable films and books. For
this reason, he has already prepared six documentary films, "Tigran
the Great," "Nemrut: The Great Holy Place of the Sun-King," "From Rock
Carvings to Alphabet," "Artavazd II," "The Capital Older than Rome"
(Yerevan/Erebuni), and "Falsifiers of History: Azerbaijan." His
last two films were issued in five languages. All were financed
by individual Armenian patrons. Movsisyan wrote each script, but
different associations actually made the films. He is at present
working on a film on Urartu, which will show some battles and other
exciting information. In the past, Movsisyan had a television show
on Armenian history on the H1 channel called "Our History Classes."

For the same reason, he participating in writing textbooks in the
Republic of Armenia for the ancient period, and also for the Armenians
of New Julfa, Iran. As a history professor at YSU, he participated in
pan-Armenian educational consultative meetings which take place once
every two years in Armenia. Consequently, he planned a textbook for
diaspora use with 34 lessons for a 34 week school year for Saturday
or one day schools. It was published in Eastern Armenian in 2011, in
Western Armenian with classical orthography in 2012, and in Russian in
2013. The Armenian government printed and sent these out for free. Now
books will be translated into English, more for middle and high schools
(12-18 year olds). He also plans others for younger readers.

The diaspora division of the Ministry of Education and Science pays
for them.

Many of the children who come to Armenia to participate in the
Armenological Olympiad every two years have used his textbooks.

http://www.mirrorspe...tems-in-urartu/
 






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