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Who Were Urartians? Are We Decendants Of Urartians?


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#1 Error 404

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:41 AM

I have done some research lately in internet and read several books about the ancient Armenia, Urartians and Hurrians. I am not historian, therefore my question may sound naive. But still when the questions rise they need answers. An inquiring mind wants to know.

Somehow I came to the conclusion that Urartians who were the decendants of Hurrians were not our ancestors. Correct me if I am wrong please. One of the major reasons is the language difference.

Alexander Varpetian in his "Ovqer en i verjoy ariaciner@" book tries to find similiarities between two nations and he finds a lot of them. But I think he fails to mention about the base difference of both languages.

As is known Urartian is agglutinative language, which belongs to neither the Semitic nor the Indo-European families but to the Hurro-Urartian family. It has 2 languages in its family Urartian and Hurrian. Both are extinct. Some linguists insist that Hurrian and Urartian are related to Northeast Caucasian languages, and place them together in an Alarodian language families. But there is not enough evidence.

If we are not decendants of Urartians then who are we? Cimmerians? Who's got mixed with people in the region? Who?

Urartian kingdom stoped to exist in 585 BC. The last king was Rusa IV. It is not possible to change the language of the whole nation in one night and to become Armenian and to speak armenian. Since Armenia is first mentioned in the history around that time by other than armenian historians.

Then supposedly Armenians are coming and absorbing Urartu mixing with them. Urartians are taking the Indo-European language and armenians are taking certain aspects from Urartian language.

This is a big puzzle for me. Who are we? What is the real age of our nation and the history? I am trying to keep my mind wide open and to think neutral. I don't want to be lead only by armenian historians like Khorenaci. I wan't multiple sources to confirm the same fact. But they don't match.

Your opinion?

#2 Eurocentric

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 12:54 PM

Very simple answer: The population of Urartu and Armenia never changed, the pupulation was the same when the kingdom was known as Urartu and after. The reigning Kings of Urartu were of Hurrian origin, the population was Armenian. Some of the Urartian names are even Indo-European, such as Argishti for example.

Earlier Hurrians were ruled by Indo-European Kings in the Kigdom of Mittani in Syria.

#3 Error 404

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 02:04 PM

I wish it were so simple. But it's not. At least not for me.

Well, assuming the urartians and armenians were living next to each other and the urartians were the kings of armenians (again two different nations).

Question:
Why there is no mention about the armenia or armenians before 1 millenium B.C. by any historian from that times?
If there were urartians and armenians living next to each other. Urartians are from hurrian origin what's the origin of armenians? Where do they come from?

We know that before Urartians that region was populated with hurians and sumerians(sumerians migrated to the south and got mixed and absorbed by accadians with the time) since 4000 B.C. then the Hitities came and populated the western(todays anatolia or turkey) part of hurian teritories (teritories, because at that time there was no hurrian kingdom).

#4 Eurocentric

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 02:28 PM

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jul 6 2006, 02:04 PM) View Post
Why there is no mention about the armenia or armenians before 1 millenium B.C. by any historian from that times?


Because Armenians did not call themselves Armenians.
Research the Mushki or Hayasa and Azzi.

QUOTE
If there were urartians and armenians living next to each other. Urartians are from hurrian origin what's the origin of armenians? Where do they come from?


The Indo-European Urmheit, take your pick Kurgan (Ukraine/Southern Russia) or Armenia.

QUOTE
We know that before Urartians that region was populated with hurians and sumerians(sumerians migrated to the south and got mixed and absorbed by accadians with the time) since 4000 B.C. then the Hitities came and populated the western(todays anatolia or turkey) part of hurian teritories (teritories, because at that time there was no hurrian kingdom).


We don't know that at all.
Hurrian territories were in Mesopotamia and Syria. Anatolian acquistions occured much later.

Sumerians coming from the North is just a myth debunked by modern science. Recent research shows that they didn't come from anywhere. We know that Akkadians ame from the South though.

#5 Accelerated

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:41 PM

IMO the history and origin of names is not important. Look at Macedonia for example. The current Macedonians are not the descendents of the ancient Masos, but they still have Alexanders crest on their flag.

#6 Eurocentric

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:00 PM

QUOTE(Accelerated @ Jul 6 2006, 05:41 PM) View Post
IMO the history and origin of names is not important. Look at Macedonia for example. The current Macedonians are not the descendents of the ancient Masos, but they still have Alexanders crest on their flag.


It is very important. Macedonians are the inhabitants of Northern Greek province. Slavo-Skopjians of FYROM are nothing more than Southern Slavs of mixed Serbian and Bulgarian heritage that speak a Bulgarian dialect. They are an international joke. The name and the flag are shameless cultural appropriation.

#7 DominO

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:25 PM

Never thought of language replacement theory?

QUOTE(Error 404 @ Jul 6 2006, 12:41 PM) View Post
I have done some research lately in internet and read several books about the ancient Armenia, Urartians and Hurrians. I am not historian, therefore my question may sound naive. But still when the questions rise they need answers. An inquiring mind wants to know.

Somehow I came to the conclusion that Urartians who were the decendants of Hurrians were not our ancestors. Correct me if I am wrong please. One of the major reasons is the language difference.

Alexander Varpetian in his "Ovqer en i verjoy ariaciner@" book tries to find similiarities between two nations and he finds a lot of them. But I think he fails to mention about the base difference of both languages.

As is known Urartian is agglutinative language, which belongs to neither the Semitic nor the Indo-European families but to the Hurro-Urartian family. It has 2 languages in its family Urartian and Hurrian. Both are extinct. Some linguists insist that Hurrian and Urartian are related to Northeast Caucasian languages, and place them together in an Alarodian language families. But there is not enough evidence.

If we are not decendants of Urartians then who are we? Cimmerians? Who's got mixed with people in the region? Who?

Urartian kingdom stoped to exist in 585 BC. The last king was Rusa IV. It is not possible to change the language of the whole nation in one night and to become Armenian and to speak armenian. Since Armenia is first mentioned in the history around that time by other than armenian historians.

Then supposedly Armenians are coming and absorbing Urartu mixing with them. Urartians are taking the Indo-European language and armenians are taking certain aspects from Urartian language.

This is a big puzzle for me. Who are we? What is the real age of our nation and the history? I am trying to keep my mind wide open and to think neutral. I don't want to be lead only by armenian historians like Khorenaci. I wan't multiple sources to confirm the same fact. But they don't match.

Your opinion?


#8 Accelerated

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:28 PM

Agreed, Im just having a lazy Friday at work and my brain has taken the backseat. smile.gif

#9 DominO

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE(Eurocentric @ Jul 6 2006, 09:00 PM) View Post
It is very important. Macedonians are the inhabitants of Northern Greek province. Slavo-Skopjians of FYROM are nothing more than Southern Slavs of mixed Serbian and Bulgarian heritage that speak a Bulgarian dialect. They are an international joke. The name and the flag are shameless cultural appropriation.


Oh boy, call them FYROM and be sure to spark a war. biggrin.gif

#10 Error 404

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:43 AM

Eurocentric,

Thank you for the information. I knew about the Kurgan Theory I have already read about it. I also know about Hayasas and Mushkas. And there are a lot of opinions about Indo European Urheimat theory which oppose each other.

Mushkas and Hayasas were small tribes sometimes small kingdoms for short times. But I do not deny the probability of them beeing our ancestors. Just no clear evidence...

You know how much information you can find nowodays about this issue but all of them are contradicting each other. I repeat no clear evidence.

Jews, assyrians, arabs can clearly tell us where they are from and how was their history. We know the history of turks too (despite they are denying it so desparately).

But how about us?

Hurrians were ruled by Aryan aristocracy. The kings of Mittani were from aryan origin there is no doubt about this. But hurrians were not aryan. And then armenians were ruled by urartian kings which have hurrian origin. Something is not right or not clear.

Seems like armenians if they did not migrate to the region from anywhere else (from Balkans or South Ukraine) were always there but in the shadow or under different ID.

Lets consider that Aryan migration started from our homeland (which is another theory) and then they went counter clock wise to the east to india then to urals then over todays russia to europe. It could be that the part of aryans who is left in the region (our homeland) could be our ancestors which stood there over time together with other tribes and nations (like hurians etc.) then when the time was right they established Armenia as a country and a kingdom.

This is just a rough opinion to which I would like to belive despite the lack of clear evidence.

What is your opinion? Did we come to the region from anywhere else or do you agree with me that we were always there?

Thanks.

#11 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 05:57 PM

In the mythology section (http://hyeforum.com/...showtopic=13031) we had a discussion with Zartonk about prechristian armenians and I promised to post pictures of Erebuni urartian fortress. I think this is the best place to post the pictures.

Pictures are from the Erebui museum. There are a lot more to see in the actual museum, thats why I highly encourage everyone to visit the real fortress and the museum. During the excursion I have asked the young lady (gid) if I can tkae pictures she said its ok I can. I am assuming I can post pics here but again I highly recommend everyone to attend the Erebuni fortress there are a lot more to see and to hear. Some of the pics may be blury that's because staff were behind the galss. I have also two videos in Erebuni and Karmir Blur. But I don't have enough webspace to put them there.




A scaled model of Erebuni fortress(I am dreaming of recreating it in any 3D software)


Young lady, the gid




part of urartian map













It looks like I can't post too many pics. I have to do them in separate sessions.

#12 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 05:58 PM











This guy was higher than me (They must have been drinking wine too much:))










#13 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 05:59 PM

According to the gid scientists still can't find the real definition some of these (maybe moulds?)











I still can't understand what those 3 triangle shaped holes mean. According to the gid this is a signature of a master that made it. There is another one on the right lower corner with different marking (star).








Some artifacts from Macedonian era.


#14 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:00 PM





Some old seeds










Artists concepts:




#15 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:01 PM

This shield according to the gid was not used in the war(too heavy and too big) instead it was hanging on the fortresses wall






Helmet of Sarduri II




This Xachqar was made on the back of cuniform writing probably in the 5th century AD. Found in Erebuni.
Some stone water tubes found 2-3 years ago in Azatutyan Hraparak.


#16 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:01 PM

Here are some pictures from the remnants of Karmir Blur Fortress (Tehshebanii destroyed by skiths). The fortress of karmir blur is in horrible situation almost nothing is left.






And some Xor Virap pics where Grigor Lusavorich was imprisoned for 13 years.
A real scary entrance. One with clastrophoby must not go there smile.gif



Inside the hole




Donations...

Edited by Error 404, 16 July 2006 - 06:02 PM.


#17 Error 404

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:11 PM

Here are some Satelite Pictures of Erebuni and Tehshebani.






#18 Zartonk

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 06:53 PM

Fantastic photographs Error. Thanks a lot for posting them. This sub-topic is now one of the best places on the web to see the artifacts of the Araratians and the meuseum. smile.gif

Edited by Zartonk, 17 July 2006 - 06:55 PM.


#19 Aratta-Kingdom

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 02:42 AM

The nonsense about Urartu started with Pyatrovski.
For some reason the kingdom of Ararat, was called by Pyatrovski Urartu...in the table it reads the following way:

R-R-T

which stands for

Ar-Ar-At

according to Pyatrovski, it reads Ur-Ar-Tu (he tries to read it the way Assyrians and the Jews would read)


The Sumerians, an ancient peoples and one of the first civilizations in the world called Ararat, Arrata. In their great epic poems of Gilgamesh and Arrata, they call of land of their ancestors, the Arratans in the Highlands of Armenia. The Sumerians also in the epic poems describe the Great Flood and the rebirth of life after the terrible deluge that fell from the Highlands of Armenia unto the lands of Mesopotamia and the Fertile Crescent. The Sumerians had a very close connection with the ancestral Land of Ararat and considered it as their ancestral homeland (many historians and archaeologists are convinced that the Sumerians initially lived in Northern Mesopotamia and Armenian Highland).

he Egyptians, too believed that life began from a mountain, surrounded by a vast expanse of water. The Egyptians had since ancient times developed close connections with the people of Ararat. The great pharaohs often married into the noble and royal families of ancient Armenian kingdom of Mittani. Their friendship and cooperation with the Kingdom of Mittani and intimate connections stretched from the Kingdom's period into the Hyksos and Hurrian dynasties (XVI th dynasty) in Egypt from the Armenian Highland. The Holy Bible and the Hebrew scriptures too, tell us of the Great Flood and Noah's Ark. Forty days of the Great Flood, which symbolizes the long period of time of the Flood and constant precipitation (the number forty in ancient civilizations, meant a lot, in Armenian Folklore it even had a significant and symbolic importance). When the downpour of rain stops and the water secedes, Noah descents from upon the Holy Mt. Ararat into the Araratian Valley of Armenia. He advises his three sons too venture from the land of Armenia into all corners of the known world to repopulate and revive the world. Japheth, Noah's oldest son decides to stay with Noah in Armenia and becomes the forefather of the Armenian people. The Armenians since those times have considered Ararat as the Holiest spot in the world, and as a Holy ground have taken the symbol of the Holy Mt. Ararat as the symbol of tenacity and vigor of the Armenian nation.

osephus, a Hebrew Historian of first century AD writes that the Armenian people at the time of his writings still remembered, and knew the place of Noah's Ark. He wrote "the Armenians call that spot the Landing-place, for it was there that the ark came safe to land, and they show the relics of it to this day." Agathangelos, a IV th century AD Armenian Historian, records that the Armenian king Trdat (Tiridates) III Arshakouni (Arsacid) built the monastery of the Virgin Martyr St. Hripsime, from the stones brought from Holy Mt. Ararat, which were considered sacred. Another Armenian Historian, Pavstos Buzand, writes that Archbishop Hakob of Mtsbin in IV th century AD made an expedition or Holy pilgrimage to Noah's Ark, by climbing from the Northeastern part of Mt. Ararat and half way during their journey as the historian writes God, stopped them and told them that no mortal human being can see, or touch the Divine Ark. God instead sends out an Angel with a board from the Ark, which the Angel gives to Archbishop (the board from the Ark to this day is still kept in St. Echmiatsin's Museum of the Mother Church as one of the most precious and holiest relics, along with other priceless objects from the Holy Apostolic Churches 1700 year history). In the XIII th century AD a French traveler (and a noble Frankish knight) named Guillaume de Rubrouck wrote in his diary (Recit De Voyage 1253 - 1255 AD Guillaume de Rubrouck - Ambassadeur de St. Louis), that the Armenians considered Mt. Ararat as a Holy Ground, and they did not climb or get close to the Sacred Mountain, not because of its impregnability, but because of its Holiness and their God-fearing commitment of keeping God's strict restriction of not getting close to the Holy Mount. As one Armenian of that period told d'Rubrouck "no one should climb the mountain, it is the cradle of the world". Indeed, Holy Mt. Ararat is the symbol of Armenia and the Armenian nation and it will remain so eternally with God's Holy Blessing of the Cradle of Civilization, Armenia - Land of Ararat.



http://home.tiscali....ivilization.htm

#20 Aratta-Kingdom

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 03:02 AM

Before Ararat, the kindom of people of Ar was called Mittani. Even the Egyptians have started to worship the Sun(Ar-ev)S-Ar-ya God.
According to ancient records, 3400 years ago,Egyptian Emperor Menkheperura or Thutmose the IV, married a daughter of King Artatma. Artatma was the King of the Mittani Kingdom, situated in the Upper Euphrates river area. The Mittani are universally recognized as Sanskrit speakers and followers of Dharma and Culture. This is evidenced in the various ancient tablets etc. that have been found by archeologists.

We know from a letter addressed by Dushratta, king of Mitanni-Artatama's grandson,-written to Akhnaton,that six times had Thotmose the Fourth made his request, but all in vain. Mitanni was a small kingdom; nothing to be compared with the mighty Egyptian Empire. Some suggest concerns about the Egyptian King's lack of Vedic culture was the basis for King Artatama's repeated refusal to give his daughter in marriage to the most powerful monarch of his times.Not until the seventh asking, did King Artatma agree to the marriage proposal.The Ancient records state, "after the seventh asking,the king of Mitanni gave his daughter to the king of Egypt."

The new Queen outwardly forsook her Vedic/Sanskrit name and adopted an Egyptian one, more in keeping with her new position-Mutemaya, or "Mut in the sacred bark"-and is styled upon the monuments as "hereditary princess, Great Lady, presiding over the South and over the North." Of her personality and actual influence nothing is known. It can only be surmised that she would, in her new home, feel herself drawn to Vedic dieties such as the Sun-God Surya,which the Greeks were one day to call Heliopolis-to Ra-Horakhti of the Two Horizons.The Egyptian's called the Sun-God Atem or Aton. Most probably, she could relate to the fiery Disk of Aton,-much like her native Aryan gods Mithra and Surya, rather than replace their worship with the exalted Amon, the tribal god of Thebes. Her real, undeniable contribution to the further history of Egypt (and of religious thought) lies however in the fact that she gave birth to King Amenhotep the Third or Amenhotep the Magnificent.

Amenhotep the Third, married one of the most remarkable feminine characters of Antiquity, Tiy, daughter of Yuaa and of Tuau, or Tuaa. Although Yuaa was a priest of the age-old Egyptian fertility-god, Min, he was a foreigner "from North Syria" or, to be more precise, from the Vedic Mitanni Kingdom.During this time in Egyptian history, the ruling aristocracy of Egypt,including the king, were of mixed Egyptian and Mittani ancestry. Sir Flinders Petrie holds Yuaa to have been one of those numerous allied or vassal princes that were then brought up at the Egyptian Court.

Edited by ArmoArmeN, 10 August 2006 - 03:03 AM.





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